Relevant rules here; Personal Staves
Staves
The rules for wands and scrolls both specify that you can't put a cantrip, focus spell or ritual onto a wand or scroll, but because staves initially where specific items, this isn't specified. The rules for creating Personal Staves in Secrets of Magic don't seem to add this specification to bring them into line with wands and scrolls.
Is there a rule I am missing that stops you from putting a focus spell onto a staff? The only rule I can find is that
You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list
- If I had to guess, a focus spell technically is just a spell you can use but isn't on your spell list? So you can technically make a personal stave with focus spells on it but no one can then go and cast those spells?
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
AFAIK all focus spells are Uncommon or Rare. Personal Staves specifies that you can only inscribe Common spells, so, no, you can't inscribe a focus spell into a staff even disregarding any other restriction.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Good catch Asethe. Though, for the record, even if one came out that was common for some reason it would still have to be on your list for it to work, as the OP mentioned. And when your list comes up it seems to be referencing the list of spells you can prepare and/or add to a repertoire, which focus spells definitely are not.
I am not seeing any specific restriction on it. I am fairly sure that it isn't intended though. I wouldn't allow it.
I'm also not sure the point of having a focus spell on a staff.
1) It would end up being at a particular level when cast, rather than auto-heightened like the focus spell normally is. (You can't have it both ways. The staff has no restriction on putting focus spells on it, but it also doesn't have the auto-heighten rule like it does for cantrips.)
2) Are you really running out of focus points that frequently?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am not seeing any specific restriction on it. I am fairly sure that it isn't intended though. I wouldn't allow it.
The restriction is that they can't be cast as they appear on no spell list.
You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list
So, barring the point I made above, you could potentially inscribe them into the staff if a common Focus spell were ever made, but you would never be able to cast them, so the argument as a whole is academic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am not seeing any specific restriction on it. I am fairly sure that it isn't intended though. I wouldn't allow it.The restriction is that they can't be cast as they appear on no spell list.
You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell listSo, barring the point I made above, you could potentially inscribe them into the staff if a common Focus spell were ever made, but you would never be able to cast them, so the argument as a whole is academic.
Hah. Indeed. The ever popular, vague, undefined 'your spell list' again. So tell me, with a rules reference, why are focus spell that you are able to cast not on 'your spell list'?
As I said earlier, I don't think it should work. And I don't see the point of doing it. But so far the arguments against it aren't sufficient for me to believe that munchkins of various stripes aren't going to continue to try and argue that it is possible and should work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You already know what you're asking for doesn't exist, but that doesn't change the facts. Point me to a rules reference that says the words focus spells and anything related to a spell list literally anywhere in any book and I will at least reconsider my position. On the other hand I can point to many spots where lists are referenced in regards to spells you can prepare / add to your spell book / add to your repertoire. Some of the most clear evidence imo is from the cleric, which seems to assume that people know your list is synonymous with spells that you can prepare as a cleric, aka the divine spell list.
Your deity also adds spells to your spell list. You can prepare these just like you can any spell on the divine spell list, once you can prepare spells of their level as a cleric.
The other key references to spell lists are that of arcane, divine, primal, and occult, which are very much associated with "you" as a caster. Other than that there's not a whole lot. Yes, the information is limited. But it all points to the same thing. Again. Point me to a single reference that mentions focus spells and a spell list of some kind. I'm fairly confident it doesn't exist, but I'm fine with being proven wrong.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hah. Indeed. The ever popular, vague, undefined 'your spell list' again. So tell me, with a rules reference, why are focus spell that you are able to cast not on 'your spell list'?
Sure, so let's start by looking at Focus Spells to see if they have anything to say about appearing on Spell Lists (CRB p.300):
Focus spells are a special type of spell attained directly from a branch of study, from a deity, or from another specific source. You can learn focus spells only through special class features or feats, rather than choosing them from a spell list.
So, Focus spells are not on a spell list and are chosen by a different method. So, where do Spell Lists come from? Traditions of Magic, p.297:
Spellcasters cast spells from one of four different spell lists, each representing a different magical tradition: arcane, divine, occult, and primal.
Your class determines which tradition of magic your spells use. In some cases, such as when a cleric gains spells from their deity or when a sorcerer gets spells from their bloodline, you might be able to cast spells from a different spell list. In these cases, the spell uses your magic tradition, not the list the spell normally comes from. When you cast a spell, add your tradition’s trait to the spell.
So, Spell Lists are divided by Tradition, and are used to determine which spells you have access to as a spellcaster. And where do we find them? Page 307 in the CRB provides the base lists with this as the header:
These lists include the spells for each
tradition, including cantrips. (Focus
spells appear on pages 386–407.)
Before going on to list all the slottable spells by tradition and level.
So, from these, we can determine three things: The Spell Lists are divided by Tradition, Focus Spells have their own separate space and are not on them, and they only have slottable spells and Cantrips.
It seems like a pretty clear way to determine the-not-vague-or-undefined "your spell list" and that Focus spells are not on them.
You already know what you're asking for doesn't exist, but that doesn't change the facts. Point me to a rules reference that says the words focus spells and anything related to a spell list literally anywhere in any book and I will at least reconsider my position. On the other hand I can point to many spots where lists are referenced in regards to spells you can prepare / add to your spell book / add to your repertoire. Some of the most clear evidence imo is from the cleric, which seems to assume that people know your list is synonymous with spells that you can prepare as a cleric, aka the divine spell list.
Your deity also adds spells to your spell list. You can prepare these just like you can any spell on the divine spell list, once you can prepare spells of their level as a cleric.The other key references to spell lists are that of arcane, divine, primal, and occult, which are very much associated with "you" as a caster. Other than that there's not a whole lot. Yes, the information is limited. But it all points to the same thing. Again. Point me to a single reference that mentions focus spells and a spell list of some kind. I'm fairly confident it doesn't exist, but I'm fine with being proven wrong.
Oh, I'm fairly confident that it doesn't exist either. But that lack of rules text isn't going to resolve the ambiguity or end a debate. It is the classic Argument from Ignorance: "We can't prove anything in either direction, so therefore I am right."
Tradition spell lists are well defined. And Focus spells are not on those spell lists.
The default Cleric characters 'your spell list' apparently only includes the 'common' spells on the Divine tradition list.
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book or from other divine spells to which you gain access.
Though you can add spells to your spell list ... somehow. Probably from the Learn a Spell activity.
A Cleric also has spells added to their spell list by their choice of Deity. And it specifically says that these spells are added to the spell list.
Witch Lessons let the Witch cast the learned spell (using the normal tradition because of the Magical Traditions rule that Asethe quoted), but don't explicitly add the spell to the Witch's spell list. It can be argued that the spell is implicitly added to the Witch's spell list - otherwise a Fervor Witch with Lesson of Protection and other relevant skills and feats could craft a Wand of Mage Armor, but then not be able to use that wand.
But if being able to cast a spell implicitly adds it to 'your spell list', wouldn't that also apply to Focus Spells? Wouldn't they also get added to 'your spell list'?
And this question of what is on 'your spell list' is something that has been bugging me for a long time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can't have it both ways.
You most certainly can! (With the right GM.)
;)
Honorable mentions for "treat X as if it were Y" and how far that is really meant to extend.
Is this meaning things like Acrobatic Performer, Streetwise, and maybe even Natural Medicine? Or are you talking about something else?
Tradition spell lists are well defined. And Focus spells are not on those spell lists.
It's the tradition part that makes things interesting. Focus spells have a tradition and use that traditions spell rolls and DC's and it's not like there aren't things that allow you to add spells to your list that aren't on it normally on the normal list. So I can see why pointing to the lists of tradition spells on in the books doesn't mean much as they aren't immutable things.
To add to the confusion, look at Reading Spells: "Tradition" This entry lists the magical traditions the spell belongs to. Some feats or other abilities might add a spell to your spell list even if you don't follow the listed traditions." This reads like it's implying that spells that share a Tradition are on the same spell list and we know Focus spells have a tradition... The problem is that they conflate spell list with spells that share a tradition.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
AFAIK all focus spells are Uncommon or Rare. Personal Staves specifies that you can only inscribe Common spells, so, no, you can't inscribe a focus spell into a staff even disregarding any other restriction.
Ah, man. Now I have to remove all of the non-common spells from my lists.
Thanks for pointing this out. :)
Edit: Ok, I took out all of the uncommon and rare spells.
|
Tradition spell lists are well defined. And Focus spells are not on those spell lists.It's the tradition part that makes things interesting. Focus spells have a tradition and use that traditions spell rolls and DC's and it's not like there aren't things that allow you to add spells to your list that aren't on it normally on the normal list. So I can see why pointing to the lists of tradition spells on in the books doesn't mean much as they aren't immutable things.
To add to the confusion, look at Reading Spells: "Tradition" This entry lists the magical traditions the spell belongs to. Some feats or other abilities might add a spell to your spell list even if you don't follow the listed traditions." This reads like it's implying that spells that share a Tradition are on the same spell list and we know Focus spells have a tradition... The problem is that they conflate spell list with spells that share a tradition.
AFAIK there is no feat or other ability that states that it adds a focus spell to your spell list.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
AFAIK there is no feat or other ability that states that it adds a focus spell to your spell list.
That's ignoring the point though: it would be the ability that grants the focus spell is giving access to a spell that not everyone of that tradition gets. If tradition drives spell lists, then such access would be enough to add it/use it. Looking at classes that have that have spells you'll see you can pick spells that are common or that you have access to. This means that there wouldn't need to be a specific statement allowing it: the fact that it has a tradition would do that.
All that said, I see no benefit from their inclusion to the list. I just understand the confusion as the lax wording conflates words that ultimately should be different things: IE, for instance, the arcane spell list in fact shouldn't have all spells that that have the arcane tradition as focus and innate spells exist with those traditions. The common usage of the descriptor doesn't seem to match the intent IMO.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
by limiting it to common spells, they bypassed this whole conversation and left it up to GMs. I can't remember if it is written in the core rule book or in a blog somewhere, but the reason why focus spells are uncommon is because they are always supposed to require unlocking by a special feature.
by limiting it to common spells, they bypassed this whole conversation and left it up to GMs. I can't remember if it is written in the core rule book or in a blog somewhere, but the reason why focus spells are uncommon is because they are always supposed to require unlocking by a special feature.
My problem with that is that by bypassing the problem, it stays being a problem for any GM who decides to allow an uncommon spell on a personal staff.
By saying 'in this game setting, Rime Slick is well-known enough that you can put it on your staff', or 'I will let you put any uncommon spells on you staff as long as you craft the staff entirely on your own - no hiring other casters to supply spell castings', I don't want to get blindsided by the next player trying to put a focus spell on their staff because now uncommon spells are allowed.
Is it likely to happen? Probably not. But it would still be better to have some reason to have focus spells forbidden other than just that 'well, they are all uncommon and only common spells are allowed on a personal staff'.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But if they are all uncommon, and it is up to the GM to decide if they want uncommon spells to be able to be forged into a staff, then the GM is probably also capable of deciding for themselves whether any specific focus spell would make sense to be put into a staff or if that doesn't make sense.