TLDR: What abilities can/cannot be used with the Mortal Usher's "Reaping Strike" ability?
So I've never looked that deeply into the nuances of Spell Like and Supernatural abilities. Whenever I need to answer a question I look it up and the answer is usually somewhere on the forums. For SLAs in particular the answer is almost always "Treat it like it's a spell".
But I had a character build for our Carrion Crown game that had some specific abilities, and I'm not 100% sure what the ruling is.
So I'm playing an OCCULTIST, and planning on moving into the Mortal Usher prestige class. I'm wondering how some of these abilities interact, first of all ...
At 1st level, whenever a mortal usher deals hit point damage by using the attack action, casting a spell that targets only a single creature, or throwing an alchemical item as a standard action (including an alchemist’s bombs), he deals an additional 1d6 points of damage to the target, plus an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 2 additional class levels he has beyond 1st. This damage is positive energy damage if the target is undead, or negative energy damage if the target is living; creatures that are neither living nor dead, such as constructs, are unaffected by this ability.
So generally this abilitiy is designed to enhance Standard Action attacks that target a single enemy. However it only calls out Attack Actions, Spells and Alchemical Items, not Spell Like or Supernatural abilities.
Here are a couple of examples that I'll probably be using ...
The TELEKINETIC MASTERY (SP) ability grants me the Telekinesis spell, but as a Spell Like Ability.
Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
So as a spell this would fire 9-15 objects at the enemy. This obviously would NOT trigger 9-15 instances of Reaping Strike, but it would trigger 1. Would it also work with a Spell Like Ability? I originally thought "No" since it doesn't say it does, but I've seen a lot of "SLAs are like spells" lately on the boards.
Next up, what about a Supernatural Ability? I'm playing a HAUNT COLLECTOR, who gets acces to the Medium's Haunt Channeler (Su) ability .
At 3rd level, a medium can use his familiarity with spirits to assist him when dealing with haunts. He can always act on the surprise round against a haunt, and his touch funnels a portion of the haunt into himself, dealing 1d6 points of damage to the haunt per 2 medium levels he possesses as if via positive energy and allowing the medium to ask the haunt a single question. The haunt can answer the question however it chooses. Additionally, the medium can forgo his saving throw against a haunt’s effects to funnel the haunt entirely into himself. If he does so, the medium suffers the haunt’s full effect, but the haunt doesn’t affect anyone else (even if it normally would). The haunt then gains control of the medium’s body for 24 hours. Once per minute, the medium can attempt to end this possession early by succeeding at a Will save (DC = 20 + 1/2 the medium’s class level).
Does this get the bonus from Reaping Strike?
This will help me directly with my character, but it will also probably help me understand the relationship between SLAs, SuAs and Spells generally.
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I think most people prefer formatting that looks like their own posts. In general links at least are good though for keeping discussion from wandering too much.
As far as reaping strike goes it looks like it was written defensively to exclude as much as possible. I'd let it work with a SLA, I expect Diego Rossi would have other ideas. Supernatural abilities that don't use the attack action don't appear to have a way into it.
as for sla (i posted this in a difrent thread). while they are not spells. they count as such for a lot of things. among them using a sla count as casting a spell. a very specific spell and it doesn't count as being able to generally cast spells of said level or kind (arcane divine) but you are still counted as casting that specific spell.
see this faq and the one two bellow it.
so using a telekinesis sla would count as casting the telekinesis spell. except it would be without any comp' (somatic verbal etc). you still provoke. need to concentrate if used defensively or get damaged while casting etc etc.
do note, that there is a faq that limit the number of sneak attacks (and i think it would also apply here) when one spell has many attack rolls, to only one of them.
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I think most people prefer formatting that looks like their own posts. In general links at least are good though for keeping discussion from wandering too much.
As far as reaping strike goes it looks like it was written defensively to exclude as much as possible. I'd let it work with a SLA, I expect Diego Rossi would have other ideas. Supernatural abilities that don't use the attack action don't appear to have a way into it.
You called? ;-)
Actually, even before reading your post, I thought it was appropriate to use it with SLA.
But with SLA and spell that respect the limits of the ability "casting a spell that targets only a single creature". Telekinesis doesn't target one creature. Sustained Force target a single object, Combat Maneuver execute a combat maneuver, Violent Thrust targets several creatures or objects, selecting only one target doesn't change that.
SU are excluded, as they aren't spells at all.
We can argue it "casting a spell that targets only a single creature" require the target line to say that the spell target a creature, or if "one or more", "up to x creatures", et cetera, allows the use of the ability when you decide to target a single creature.
Even with the more lenient interpretation, the target of telekinesis is the creature throw, not the target of the attack you do with it.
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(PS: I tend to spend a lot of my time editing my posts with bold, italics, LINKS, etc. Does this make things easier for everyone or am I wasting my time - or worse am I making life harder with all the info on the page? I just thought I'd check and see if anyone has any feedback after ~5 years of posting =P ).
Generally, I would say it is a positive thing.
Maybe, for ease of replying, you could use links and avoid citations for the less important text.
As an example, in your post the description of Reaping Strike is critical and it is very useful to see it immediately, without the need to follow the link.
There was less need to insert the text from the Telekinesis spell (but knowing that you are speaking of the Violent Thrust variant is important) and that of Haunt Channeller, as you already linked the abilities.
A long text limits the ability to cite it (but who I am to speak about that, with my walls of text?).
So the consensus seems to be that (Sp) abilities work but (Su) abilities don't, and as zza ni said the Reaping Strike bonus would only count once per spell, not once per hit.
Cool =)
But with SLA and spell that respect the limits of the ability "casting a spell that targets only a single creature". Telekinesis doesn't target one creature. Sustained Force target a single object, Combat Maneuver execute a combat maneuver, Violent Thrust targets several creatures or objects, selecting only one target doesn't change that.
Hmmm ... so you think (Sp) abilities work, but you don't think Telekinesis works because of how it's affecting multiple creatures/objects. I kinda see where you're coming from, but here's my counter:
At 1st level, whenever a mortal usher deals hit point damage by using the attack action, casting a spell that targets only a single creature, or throwing an alchemical item as a standard action (including an alchemist’s bombs), he deals an additional 1d6 points of damage to the target, plus an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 2 additional class levels he has beyond 1st.
You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects.
...
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer).
...
Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
It seems pretty clear to me that there is 1 Target of the spell when used this way. This is how I initially read it, and after seeing your comment and wondering if I'd read it wrong, it still seems correct to me. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I agree ...
HOWEVER I did make this thread to ask for clarification, so what do people think?
Hmmmm... It did make me think though. If the Combat Maneuver part of Telekinesis works with Reaping Strike could I use it with a Grapple?
Obviously the initial Grapple wouldn't get the bonus because I'm not dealing damage, but if I maintain the Grapple with Telekinesis and deal damage would that get the bonus damage?
I hadn't thought of that.
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So the consensus seems to be that (Sp) abilities work but (Su) abilities don't, and as zza ni said the Reaping Strike bonus would only count once per spell, not once per hit.
Cool =)
But with SLA and spell that respect the limits of the ability "casting a spell that targets only a single creature". Telekinesis doesn't target one creature. Sustained Force target a single object, Combat Maneuver execute a combat maneuver, Violent Thrust targets several creatures or objects, selecting only one target doesn't change that.Hmmm ... so you think (Sp) abilities work, but you don't think Telekinesis works because of how it's affecting multiple creatures/objects. I kinda see where you're coming from, but here's my counter:
At 1st level, whenever a mortal usher deals hit point damage by using the attack action, casting a spell that targets only a single creature, or throwing an alchemical item as a standard action (including an alchemist’s bombs), he deals an additional 1d6 points of damage to the target, plus an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 2 additional class levels he has beyond 1st.
It seems pretty clear to me that there is 1 Target of the spell...You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects.
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You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer).
...
Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
No.
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer).
you aren't targeting the spell, you are making an attack and selecting the target for that attack.)
You aren't using the attack action, so you can't apply Reaping strike on that basis.Reaping strike require a targeted spell, not a spell that makes an attack roll.
Maintaining a grapple with Telekinesis isn't casting a spell, nor making an attack action. Again, it is not valid for applying Reaping strike.
You need a spell with a target line, and the ability to target a single creature.
You add the damage when you cast the spell, not when it deals continuous damage in the following rounds.
hmmm... after re-reading I'm going to say it does not work based on simplicity. The reasons are two; it is not casting a spell (SLAs don't count for this purpose{not crafting an item} AND it's not specifically called out in Reaping Strike which would give an SLA a pass), Telekenisis does not target a single target (it has options that do) and in a simple way that's not the same thing.
I can see many GMs allowing this, and I would in my home game, but in a rules thread I'm going with Core as there are multiple issues.IF it did work (a more nuanced ruling for some spell options), I think how you interpret the interaction is incorrect.
> Sustained Force: no effect as target is an object.
> Combat Maneuver: Can damage living or dead as they are the single target of the CMB that deals HP damage.
> Violent Thrust: May damage a living/undead creature you hurl (as a single target), not the epicenter of their trajectory (the second target mentioned in the spell). If you hurl objects - no effect on those objects or their impact (both multiple spell targets and objects).===
this effect is meant to be used with spells like Ear-Piercing Scream, and Acid Arrow. Not Magic Missile, Chill Touch, Gravity Bow, or Glitterdust. Target:"creature", "creature or object", or "single" with either of those.
High level spells do get complex so I think there's room for interpretation.
this faq that said that sla count for other stuff. there is a separate one that talk about crafting an item . this one answer the question if sla "count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements" and the answer was yes but only that specific spell that the sla copy. and the prc ability require a spell to be cast..see the coloration?
it doesn't need to call out the specific spell.
since it call for 'any spell that...'
the faq about sla not counting for being a caster of x kind or x level spell was so specifically that.
basically having a sla doesn't make you count as a caster of the sla kind. nor a caster capable of casting spells of the sla level, but you do count as a caster capable of casting that specific spell.
so any requirement asking for that spell (or any spell, which is broader) are met.
(the dev's mentioned that the first two were taken out because what the requirement was after was a caster with enough experience to cast spells of a x kind. not some1 who was born into a race that gave it accesses to one spell of that kind)
I think Diego has it right on this regarding the telekinesis stuff
And since no one seemed to mention it, A hard "Nope" on the Haunt Channeler working with Reaping Strike sadly. Haunt Channeler doesn't check any of the boxes necessary to make it work with Reaping Strike.
*Not an Attack Action
*Not a Spell(Or Spell-Like) that targets a single creature
*Not an alchemical item
Hey all, sorry for the delayed response, been crazy busy.
So it seems like we're 100% in agreement that (Su) Abilities don't work, mostly in agreement that (Sp) Abilities do work, and mostly in agreement that it doesn't work that Telekinesis.
Thanks =)
Here's another question though : How does Reaping Strike work with DISRUPT UNDEAD?
1. The spell allows a Reflex Save for half damage. Does the save reduce the damage from Reaping Strike?
2. The spell deals full damage to incorporeal creatures. Would the damage from Reaping Strike also deal full damage to incorporeal creatures when I use this spell?
Also thanks for the feedback on post editing . I'll keep those notes in mind =)
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Hey all, sorry for the delayed response, been crazy busy.
So it seems like we're 100% in agreement that (Su) Abilities don't work, mostly in agreement that (Sp) Abilities do work, and mostly in agreement that it doesn't work that Telekinesis.
Thanks =)
Here's another question though : How does Reaping Strike work with DISRUPT UNDEAD?
1. The spell allows a Reflex Save for half damage. Does the save reduce the damage from Reaping Strike?
My first thought was that Reaping strike damage is part of the spell damage, so a successful save will halve it. On the other hand, it is specifically positive or negative damage, regardless of the original spell, so it is somewhat separated by the spell.
I still think that it will be halved. The best reference is Flame strike: half fire damage, half divine damage, if you save you halve both.
BTW: Disrupt undead is a RAY, so Reaping strike is not appliable. Same problem as above: it should target a creature, not fire a ray.
Probably the RAI was different, but RAW it is very limited.
Sorry.
2. The spell deals full damage to incorporeal creatures. Would the damage from Reaping Strike also deal full damage to incorporeal creatures when I use this spell?
If it could benefit from Reaping strike, it will do full damage, Reaping strike included. From my point of view, Reaping strike is part of the spell damage, not a separate rider.
Also thanks for the feedback on post editing . I'll keep those notes in mind =)
As you can see, I copied your idea of using ooc to separate a piece of text. ;-)
Derp, I meant PURGE SPIRIT, not Disrupt undead.
It doesn't matter hugely, it's just an example that fits both the "affects incorporeal" and the "save for half" tags, but hopefully that makes more sense now.
BTW: Disrupt undead is a RAY, so Reaping strike is not appliable. Same problem as above: it should target a creature, not fire a ray.
Probably the RAI was different, but RAW it is very limited.
Sorry.
Wait, that was your reason for disallowing Telekinesis? Gonna have to disagree with you there brother.
Does everyone else agree with this explanation? This seems like one of those "can't see the sun because of the stealth rules" kinda explanations . I gotta tell you that's gonna be a tough sell unless you have a real smoking gun to back that up.
EDIT: I should clarify that I can see reasons that Telekinesis wouldn't work with Reaping Strike, so I'm not trying to advocate for that. I'm totally happy to rule out that spell , but the reason you gave for that ruling doesn't sit well with me.
As you can see, I copied your idea of using ooc to separate a piece of text. ;-)
Yeah I started doing that for everything in a while ago. I think it was after an especially egregious post I made with about 2 paragraphs stuffed into one sentence that was all separated with comments in brackets. It was so hard to read that I went back and edited the carp out of it, and the text for brackets really made it easier.
I tend to write in my train-of-thought, and then edit after I finish writing, so having the tools to make things easier to read definitely helps.
PS Even though I might disagree with how you came to your conclusions I really do appreciate your weighing in on this thread . That goes for all of you, this is a particularly high caliber thread if I do say so myself ;)
I'll try to be open to your reasoning, so ... Convince Me!
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BTW: Disrupt undead is a RAY, so Reaping strike is not appliable. Same problem as above: it should target a creature, not fire a ray.
Probably the RAI was different, but RAW it is very limited.
Sorry.Wait, that was your reason for disallowing Telekinesis? Gonna have to disagree with you there brother.
Does everyone else agree with this explanation? This seems like one of those "can't see the sun because of the stealth rules" kinda explanations . I gotta tell you that's gonna be a tough sell unless you have a real smoking gun to back that up.
EDIT: I should clarify that I can see reasons that Telekinesis wouldn't work with Reaping Strike, so I'm not trying to advocate for that. I'm totally happy to rule out that spell , but the reason you gave for that ruling doesn't sit well with me.
A spell that fires a ray fires a ray, it isn't targeted at anyone. That's is why you can fire a ray at an invisible target, because you can target the ray against a square, while you can't target a spell that targets a creature unless you see the creature.
You can do the same thing with Telekinesis: you pick up a visible creature or item and hurl it against a target that you don't see. The spell target the visible creature/item, not the target of the hurled creature.
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range
determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell’s range.Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you’re aiming.
If a ray spell has a duration, it’s the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets.
You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
Two different paragraphs of the magic rules, two very different things.
Telekinesis doesn't work because you're targeting the object you're chucking, not the creature hit. Disrupt Undead/Other ray spells definitely work with the ability as long as it's only targeting a single creature. You don't target the ray when you cast a ray spell, you target a creature/object, and the magic takes the form of a ray attack.
Et tu, willuwontu?
Really, it is a basic difference, and it affect tons of stuff.
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Derp, I meant PURGE SPIRIT, not Disrupt undead.
It doesn't matter hugely, it's just an example that fits both the "affects incorporeal" and the "save for half" tags, but hopefully that makes more sense now.
In my opinion, Reaping strike is part of the spell, and will do full damage against incorporeal creatures, but it is affected by the save.
It is part of the spell both for the positive and negative effects.