How to be a better diva

[DRD1812]

You know the "problem player" archetypes that Paizo calls out in the GM Guide? One of them hits a little close home.

I identify as a diva. There’s nothing I like better than chewing some in-character scenery, adopting accents, and waxing eloquent about my extremely-interesting backstory. But as a self-acknowledged spotlight hog, I've had to come to grips with the idea of being part of an ensemble. So on the off chance that this is useful to any fellow divas out there, here's what I've learned over the years.

When you’re a natural diva, there’s a risk of becoming “the protagonist” rather than “a protagonist.” And if the other players feel like you’re overshadowing the rest of the cast, it’s on you to be proactive about the situation. In that regard, my favorite tactic is to check in with my party members from time to time: “What are you hoping to do with your character? Is there anything my guy can do to help set up a cool moment?”

You see, I think that there’s a little bit of GM in every player. The common wisdom is that it’s the GM’s job to manage the group and make sure everyone is having a good time. But I think that it’s the mark of a good player to shoulder a little bit of that load as well. You’re not just there to have fun. You’re there to help everyone else at the table have fun as well. That means playing foil to other PCs, standing out of the way when it’s time for someone else’s special moment, and in general helping your more introverted castmates to shine.

Not everybody thinks of RPGs in terms of performance, and it is by no means a requirement to game. But if you are the kind of gamer that likes to go for the Oscar, it pays to remember that RPGs are a group effort. Let your pals take center-stage from time to time, and your own performance will be stronger for it.

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Focus on the story
This depends on what sort of games the GM is running but if you have a straightforward game that doesn't care about the background or desires of the PCs other than a minimal buy-in to the plot, you don't need to make a big deal of your character's personality and history. Give a boring, simple background like 'grew up on a farm, got bored, left for adventure' and leave it at that. You can have vivid characters for flavor but it is their service to the game and the party that matters, not their personal growth or stories.

Share the spotlight
Some players naturally take a backseat to others, and as a consequence they don't get to show off their character's personality very well. If your character interacts with others on a regular basis you can help bring others to the fore. Ask in character questions about their background or opinion on a matter. Encourage them to do something in character that thrusts them into the spotlight. Not all players will want this so don't force the issue if they seem uncomfortable.

Confess your sins
If you notice you tend to hog the spotlight other players probably notice it too. Just 'fess up before starting the next session, apologize (if warranted) and say you are trying to get better and ask them to help rein you in.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Aid Another. I'm not just suggesting using the action type, but genuinely help other people.

The maker/universe/genetics gave you 2 ears and one mouth. This is because listening to others is twice as important as what you have to say.

Do unto others as you'd have them do to your character. You want the spotlight? Make sure you're giving others enough time there for them to willingly give it back to you.

Nerf your build. Don't make a USELESS character, but don't build something that will obviously outshine everyone else at the table/screen.

GMs are players too. Their "build" is the campaign, and they want just as much love and adoration for theirs as you want for yours. Give it to them.

I mean, the answer to "how not to be a diva at a TTRPG game session" isn't that hard - be nice and think of others, then act on those thoughts.

Now you just have to convince gamers, a culture famous for joking that GMs are vengeful gods and, specifically in PF1, a culture famous for endlessly pursuing optimization for their own characters, to do the work.

[Algarik]

I've had a bit of this syndrome in the past and i don't think there's any magic trick to surpassing it, you just gotta be aware of the problem. Make sure you don't talk over your friend, wait a bit before jumping in social encounters, lets the other time to shine. It boils down to being respectful, simple stuff really.

Mark Hoover's trick are also pretty good. Playing support characters are also good idea as it makes you shine by helping other succeed, thus placing them in the spotlight.

[VoodistMonk]

I say play it up.

It is awesome that you try help other players connecting their backstory to thr campaign. And the stuff you mentioned about taking others into account is spot on.

Outside of that... if you designed an interesting character, own it.

If you happen to have built a well-rounded character that always seems to be able to do something, that is a good thing. That isn't stealing the spotlight, it's picking up others' slack... everyone should try to build well-rounded characters, it is not your fault if people run out of things they can do to contribute in any given situation.

Honestly, whiners are always going to find something to whine about... do not downplay your roleplay simply because other people build bland characters or don't turn their roleplay up to 11. Stay golden, Ponyboy.

[Mark Hoover 330]

VM, please tell me you're trolling me right now. If not, understand that for a "diva" to exist, they need an audience. Do you see your fellow players and GM as passive observers there to heap praise on you?

This hobby brings folks together to actively spend their time creating a mutually enjoyable experience. They're not an audience, they're your peers, your equals.

More than that, they're spending a resource: time. If the resource were money, you're suggesting that folks don't get to complain if you show up to a session and rob them all of their cash just 'cuz you've got faster hands.

The root of the complaints folks have about diva types in their sessions isn't "haters gonna hate." Its that in a four hour session, 3.5 of that was one person hogging the spotlight. They aren't making a commentary of what you did IN the spotlight, but rather that they felt ignored, passive... like your audience, not your equals, during that time.

The other players don't exist for you to outshine. The GM isn't there solely to give you a platform to show off. The hobby is about everyone being participants together.

Think of others and act on it. I'm not saying you need to make a life change. I'm not suggesting that you have to roleplay the same way as others at your table. I am saying though that in a four hour session you need to take an hour of that for yourself and be whatever kind of roleplayer you are, but then you need to give back the other three hours to the other three players so they can do WHATEVER THEY WANT with that time.

Because it's their game too. Because you're not the center of everything. Because they're not your audience, nor do they have to be "as good" or "better" than you.

[VoodistMonk]

Fair... and maybe I do not have a very good grasp of what a Diva is in the sense of tabletop RPG's.

I know about ball-hogs, and class clowns, attention-whores of all sorts and sizes... I was one, for too long a time. Then basic training taught me never to be first, and never to be last... to exist in anonymity, and avoid the spotlight, entirely.

I make my characters so that they can [hopefully] always contribute SOMETHING to almost every situation. So I find myself volunteering my character's services often... more often than the less prepared. It worries me that I am stealing the spotlight... that I am stealing the valuable time of the other players. I don't like it, that feeling.

I get all weird when I know I have people behind me in line, too. Like cramming my change into my pocket instead of putting it in my wallet, grabbing everything up in a bunch and getting out of everyone's way with the quickness. Nobody ever says anything to me, I am not slow, or keeping anyone waiting... it is purely a mental thing that I seem to THINK everyone is waiting on me. Like I am wasting everyone's time by simply doing everyday $#!+...

Quite the change from that kid that once demanded the spotlight be centered on him at all times.

I built a GMPC to try keep Kingmaker on track when I ran it. A little Kobold focused on Aid Another. At first I was super worried about stealing everyone's time... so I would have Hbob kind of quiet down for a session. And nobody would speak or engage or volunteer their roleplaying.. . So, next session, Hbob is back in full swing, and everyone is engaged and loving it. He was the icebreaker. The seed. The inspiration.

The party eventually got more comfortable, developed their own mannerisms as the campaign progressed... and I retired Hbob from the party, married him off to some Queen Kobold to form an alliance with the new kingdom. He wasn't needed anymore to get people going. But he remained a party favorite, they would go out of their way to stop by the gold mine where the Kobolds lived, just to say hi to Hbob. He was helpful in all the right ways, yet basically useless in combat... which is the one area people seem to really care about if they are getting outshined.

Pick your poison... if you are going to be a Diva, be supportive to party. Make your time in the spotlight highlight their characters' accomplishments and play to the other characters' strengths. Be a Bard, sing songs about how awesome they are because of you. Lol.

There was a player who built characters he thought were cool. And they were neat, just needed refinement. He would build elaborate custom races and choose strong multiclass combinations for his builds... just his execution and tactical choices were questionable at times. He avoided the spotlight at all costs, and seldom engaged in roleplay. He was a valuable member of the party, but by not participating in roleplay, there were dead spots in the session where his character was supposed to interact with the world...

Sometimes, the party NEEDS a class clown to step up and take one for the team in situations where the roleplay with become stagnant. Balancing between keeping roleplay moving, and stealing the valuable time of others is a delicate process, at times. Probably what this entire thread is about. Just don't do it for you, do it for everyone, and things should work themselves out.

[Scavion]

I have a funny meme somewhere about this. Once I get home, I'll link it :D

It...depends on your group. Really. If everyone is waffling on a decision or standing around in front of a closed door, it's okay to open the door. And when that happens enough times, surprise! You're the protagonist now!

*Results may vary, may begin the Dwarven Door Game*

Dwarven Door Game!:

So you've entered a dungeon and don't know where to start huh? Well, put all your hands together and get ready to break into a run for the Dwarven Door Game! Whoever scores the highest(and survives) wins!

Scoring:
1pt- Opening a Door
+1pt if there are enemies behind it
+2 pts if you open a consecutive door without going into the room
2 pts- Opening a Double Door
3 pts- Opening a Secret Door
4 pts- Opening the Boss Fight door

Good Luck and haaaaave fun!

[Zepheri]

Being a diva is not all bad, you just make others see what their faults are. always being as the main protagonist makes them see that they are not aware of the game but in something else, If they told me that the game is hacking Slash, I think I am the most murderous character I see and I make him a psychopath. and everyone happy since you do not have to do anything other than kill even the alignment It would not matter, now they do point out to me that there will be some plot and dialogue, so analysis is required, taking notes of the facts and character and other things; then it is already a question of seeing if it is in the game or you just came thinking that no matter what you do you will always be the star

Being "diva" does not mean that you are the star, it means that you are in the role that determines you to create and in which you develop, if no other person does the same It's not my fault anymore if you're not motivated to role-play

[VoodistMonk]

Zepheri wrote:

Being a diva is not all bad, you just make others see what their faults are. always being as the main protagonist makes them see that they are not aware of the game but in something else...

Being "diva" does not mean that you are the star, it means that you are in the role that determines you to create and in which you develop, if no other person does the same It's not my fault anymore if you're not motivated to role-play

I agree.

Personally, I like to try tell a story about my character with my character's choices.

Sometimes I don't show up with the most developed backstory... some lazy trail of bread crumbs connecting a bunch of mechanical choices I made on character creation... yeah, sure, my father was a blacksmith (because I took the Armor Master trait to be able to wear Mithral Breastplate without penalty even though I only have light armor proficiency)... or whatever it happens to be. But I fully intend on constantly developing my character throughout the course of the campaign.

This character development guides multiclass choices, determines relationships my character has with the party and NPC's, and makes my character dynamic/fluid. I am taking notes, I am changing my character to adapt to its surrounding, I am almost always prepared for whatever situation we may find ourselves in... and it shows. Especially in juxtapose to people that plotted a course for their character and just stuck to it regardless of what happens around them.

When people put their characters on autopilot, they have checked themsleves out.

I have no remorse for being a "diva" simply because I have a character that remembers NPC names and interacts with the NPC's, and has side-gigs outside the party, and has a ranged weapon for fighting at range, and alchemical items for every situation, and I make Profession Soldier checks to stand guard on the wall when we visit settlements and then drink with my new guard friends at the pub afterwards, and I took traits for skills and make skill checks... I'm having fun playing the game, doing what the game offers possible to everyone.

If you are not also doing all those things, that doesn't even make me a Diva... it just makes you boring. Lol.

[Algarik]

Zepheri wrote:

Being "diva" does not mean that you are the star, it means that you are in the role that determines you to create and in which you develop, if no other person does the same It's not my fault anymore if you're not motivated to role-play

I feel like this is not what people mean when they refer to a ''diva'' character. The DMG refers to a diva as the type of player who is''[...]the center of attention, the focus of all roleplaying interaction that occurs in the campaign world. Every interactions, introduction, and event is another opportunity for her to shine, while the rest of the group struggles to get a word in edgewise.''(GameMastery Guide p.72, emphasis mine.)

What you're describing is someone who takes Roleplaying seriously, which is something good. The Diva has that quality but also the bad habits of trampling other's moment to shine as well. If the rest of the group ''struggles to get a word in'' it means that it's a bit more than just roleplaying. The Diva player is probably cutting others who talk, don't let a second for other players who might also have some ideas, etc.

I've been guilty of it in the past, because i love being the party's face. I realized how bad it was when i got paired with another Diva player as we'd often cut each others out. This is a lack of respect and consideration for your fellow player. It goes further than optimization, which is another player archetype; the Power Gamer.

Now now, before i fall into the stormwind fallacy, i'm not saying you can't be both, which i used to be as well, but power gaming is another matter. Power gaming can be good or bad depending on the campaign's goal.

VoodistMonk wrote:

I have no remorse for being a "diva" simply because I have a character that remembers NPC names and interacts with the NPC's, and has side-gigs outside the party, and has a ranged weapon for fighting at range, and alchemical items for every situation, and I make Profession Soldier checks to stand guard on the wall when we visit settlements and then drink with my new guard friends at the pub afterwards, and I took traits for skills and make skill checks... I'm having fun playing the game, doing what the game offers possible to everyone.

There's nothing inherently diva with what you describe as well. It just mean you invest time and energy into your characters, which is great. It becomes a Diva trait if your side gigs includes no other players and takes more than 15 minutes of gametime while others are forced to twiddles their thumbs.

It can be great if your side mission stories and weaves into the GM's campaign, but it becomes annoying when it's so outside the group interest that it steals gametime from others. If you want to engage in such things solo side games or pre-game discussion with the GM are better ways to handle this, imo.

[Sysryke]

This is another one of those conversations where everyone needs to be sure they are using the same definitions for their terms. I'm unfamiliar with the bad player archetypes, but from what I can piece together, the DM's version of "Diva" is a jerk player. What the OP described, I would consider to be the positive player archetypes of "Actor" and "Storyteller".

Nearly anything can be taken to positive or negative extremes. I might view the "Actor" and the "Diva" in the same relationship as a Paladin and Anti-Paladin (dumb name). Each looks at the other through a mirror darkly.

If you identify as Diva, but are playing like an Actor, I'd say you're just fine.

[VoodistMonk]

Ah, yes, first we must define our terms. We seem to have differing instinctual definitions of what a "Diva" is, exactly...

[Yqatuba]

You could play as this https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-ar chetypes/diva/ that way it's kind of justified.

[DRD1812]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Ah, yes, first we must define our terms. We seem to have differing instinctual definitions of what a "Diva" is, exactly...

The GMG is interesting in that it describes almost all of these "archetypes" as potentially problematic, but not necessarily so. In my mind, a diva type player is all about being the center of attention. That's great if your group needs a bit of momentum to help break them out of moments of passivity, but it's less good when people feel like their on characters are being overshadowed.

[DRD1812]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

for a "diva" to exist, they need an audience. Do you see your fellow players and GM as passive observers there to heap praise on you?

This hobby brings folks together to actively spend their time creating a mutually enjoyable experience. They're not an audience, they're your peers, your equals.

On the contrary. In the performative situation of an RPG, the guy across the table from you is your co-performer AND your audience. The key is figuring out when to switch frames, come forward into the spotlight, or to recede into the background.

As a case in point, imagine a GM grinning across her screen, watching as the players battle back and forth (all in character!) without her having to lift a finger. During these RP-intensive moments, the GM becomes an audience for her players' performance.

A little light reading on the subject of RPG-as-performance:

https://www.amazon.com/Fantasy-Role-Playing-Game-New-Performing/dp/07864081 54