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So something occurred to me that doesn't seem to be covered in extant Lore. It's mentioned in Arazni's writeups that she simultaneously resents Iomedae for having achieved divinity so easily, but also is proud of her for succeeding as much as she has, and recognizes that nobody should be subjected to her ordeals.
But.
If that were true, I would imagine Arazni would view her with seething hatred. Given that she doesn't appear to, I'm not sure how to reconcile these two things. Anyone have any ideas on how to do so? Or do the devs have any way to untie this particular knot?
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Iomedae had been among the Knights for only 2 years when Arazni was summoned and bound. No way she was one of the Knights' leaders at the time.
Gotcha. I have a hard time keeping track of the timelines.
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Arazni may resent Iomedae for achieving divinity easily, but when Arazni was summoned to fight the Tyrant, Iomedae was just a paladin in the crusade not a godess herself yet.
Also it is a lich version of Arazni that is full of resentment (for obvious reasons since Geb raped her soul and no one helped Arazni). Arazni before her death from the hands of WT was a lot more pure and loving I would say.
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Arazni really intrigued me the less I knew about her. :)
She was a lich at the start of the campaign setting, yes, but one that *was* a crusader demigod first, and had an entire order of knights who regarded her as a sort of patron saint, which made me feel like she was some sort of warrior-cleric, if not an actual paladin (like Iomedae, who followed her path). If warpriest had existed, I totally would have embraced that class for her.
And then she turned out to be a wizard (she certainly didn't have to be, Geb's process for lichifying her *already* broke rules, like that *she* had to choose it and *she* had to do all sorts of evil stuff to become evil to perform the ritual to become a lich, which is why they're all evil, so her being a non-wizard is just, eh, let's do a sixth impossible thing before breakfast?), which kinda made sense, once it seemed more baked in that Aroden himself was a super-wizard like Nethys and not a more generic sort of god like Shelyn or Abadar, who doesn't really scream one PC class or another.
And that opened up a new enthusiasm, that she might be a more militant / martial sort of 'wizard,' a magus, perhaps (they weren't in the game yet, save as the 'Eldritch Knight' PRC), and that her knights of Ozem might include a strong showing of warrior/mages (or maguses) and it be sort of an in-setting place where the arts of the magus first came into serious play among humans in Golarion, among the followers of Arazni.
*That* got me excited to see the Knights of Ozem, sort of martial magic-users, and then, pfft, they turn out to have undead-fighting powers because of their big outrage about Arazni getting liched-up, which happened in the last chapter of their existence, so I guess they had no special abilities for the earlier chapters? No wonder they failed so hard. :)
Anyway that sort of whiffed out. So now, I dunno. I think she took so long to get out of that early nebulous state she was in, and I jumped the gun anticipating stuff that obviously existed nowhere else but my head (and, yes, I know, that's all my fault, no one else's!), that the reveals that followed didn't really do much for me.
I do wonder if Arazni has any funny stories about Iomedae.
"Oh yes, I remember when she first joined up. I saw big things in her future... Just kidding. I had no idea that 'enthusiastic new recruit 725' would lap me in the race for Aroden's favor and end up prying the brass ring out of my cold, dead hands. Not that I'm bitter..."
"'Cause Aroden's still dead. And I'm not. How ya like me now?"
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You can see how Arazni has continued to be hurt and failed by Aroden later on in Tyrant’s Grasp
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Other thing that I find interesting: Aroden surrounded himself with women who would end up being his legacy. Arazni, Iomedae, and even Milani all circled Aroden and his faith and when he died they had to pick up what was left. I have a poor opinion of Aroden, and Iomedae has had to carry the burden of his legacy--and will probably never shake it. A good woman who had to clean up the messes left behind by an irresponsible man.
A more charitable interpretation is that Aroden recognized the merits of Iomedae and Milani and wasn't afraid to promote them within his organization.
Also, Milani and Iomedae didn't have to clean up after Aroden, they chose to and rose to the occasion.
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Other thing that I find interesting: Aroden surrounded himself with women who would end up being his legacy. Arazni, Iomedae, and even Milani all circled Aroden and his faith and when he died they had to pick up what was left. I have a poor opinion of Aroden, and Iomedae has had to carry the burden of his legacy--and will probably never shake it. A good woman who had to clean up the messes left behind by an irresponsible man.A more charitable interpretation is that Aroden recognized the merits of Iomedae and Milani and wasn't afraid to promote them within his organization.
Also, Milani and Iomedae didn't have to clean up after Aroden, they chose to and rose to the occasion.
Interesting though that Aroden could not find men of similar merit at all. Not to mention that all three of the ladies were human.
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I mean, he’s a god of humanity, isn’t he?
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It gets even messier when you buy into the theory that Aroden somehow engineered his own death - I hope it was worth it.
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My own very personal interpretation on Aroden's Angels : the guy was utterly insecure as a deity and greatly feared uplifting a man who could become a rival and usurp his power. He did not see women as potential rivals and felt secure in their affection.
So, a prime example of a patriarch IMO, and a specist too at that.
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My own very personal interpretation on Aroden's Angels : the guy was utterly insecure as a deity and greatly feared uplifting a man who could become a rival and usurp his power. He did not see women as potential rivals and felt secure in their affection.
So, a prime example of a patriarch IMO, and a specist too at that.
Not a bad theory. I have a hard time ascribing any sort of malice to it though. Aroden was neglectful and poor at follow through. Its his carelessness that causes problems for people. Putting a God making rock at the middle of his city. Binding that magic tree to his life, stealing the Aeon Orbs, killing Tar-Baphon over a lake of negative energy, promising Cheliax a front row seat to the next Golden Age, and the like.
He let so many people down.
And I think that casual neglect combined with his utter brilliance is what draws good people to Aroden's circle. "This man-child is going to hurt himself or someone if he doesn't have supervision. If I could get him to concentrate on something for five minutes, we could make a real difference."
Because something that I keep coming back to is that Arazni was Aroden's friend. She helped him and supported him during his projects and he in turn helped her. Either he was so brilliant that she put up with a terrible personality to learn with him, or he had something about him that made it not terrible.
I've always hated him for just this reason. He's was such an uncaring, unhelpful jerk it boggles my mind that anyone was sad when he died.
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Aroden to me seems a classic case of being buried under expectations. He was naturally highly skilled and intelligent, and so people assumed that he was therefore good at everything and thrust a bunch of responsibility on him that he was in no way equipped to handle but still felt obligated to. I’m willing to bet that he had a distressingly low empathetic intelligence.
So combine high int, low wis, everybody telling you you’re smart, and having a ton of responsibility thrust on you, you’re gonna get an arrogant egomaniac who is way too anxious and paranoid to ever examine their own actions or their consequences. If I had to bet I’d say he had an ISTJ or INTJ personality. That’s pretty much exactly what you’d expect if you put someone like that in that environment.
Of course, we know little of his early life, so I might be way off base.
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Of course, we know little of his early life, so I might be way off base.
I mean, we do know that when he was asked to choose the new emperor of Azlant to bestow the magic sword to, he just kept it. I don't know if the lore says that he decided none were worthy, but it's basically the same thing.
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As for the matter of who Iomedae worshipped, I was fairly strongly under the impression that she originally worshipped Arazni as Aroden's herald, being focused on the 'good' half of the paladin's LG. Upon Arazni's death she converted to Aroden, and I seem to recall mention that she hoped for and saw the good that Aroden could do in the world if he focused more on people.
Then she took the test of Starstone and became Aroden's herald, then eventually took Aroden's place. I don't know if it means anything, but the way I tend to describe Iomedae's history is that she's coincidentally managed to take the job of everyone she's served under. Inheritor indeed.
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Interesting though that Aroden could not find men of similar merit at all. Not to mention that all three of the ladies were human.Other thing that I find interesting: Aroden surrounded himself with women who would end up being his legacy. Arazni, Iomedae, and even Milani all circled Aroden and his faith and when he died they had to pick up what was left. I have a poor opinion of Aroden, and Iomedae has had to carry the burden of his legacy--and will probably never shake it. A good woman who had to clean up the messes left behind by an irresponsible man.A more charitable interpretation is that Aroden recognized the merits of Iomedae and Milani and wasn't afraid to promote them within his organization.
Also, Milani and Iomedae didn't have to clean up after Aroden, they chose to and rose to the occasion.
Minor Note: Milani was a half-elf.
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Minor Note: Milani was a half-elf.Interesting though that Aroden could not find men of similar merit at all. Not to mention that all three of the ladies were human.Other thing that I find interesting: Aroden surrounded himself with women who would end up being his legacy. Arazni, Iomedae, and even Milani all circled Aroden and his faith and when he died they had to pick up what was left. I have a poor opinion of Aroden, and Iomedae has had to carry the burden of his legacy--and will probably never shake it. A good woman who had to clean up the messes left behind by an irresponsible man.A more charitable interpretation is that Aroden recognized the merits of Iomedae and Milani and wasn't afraid to promote them within his organization.
Also, Milani and Iomedae didn't have to clean up after Aroden, they chose to and rose to the occasion.
I did not know that. Thanks for the info.
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Aroden to me seems a classic case of being buried under expectations. He was naturally highly skilled and intelligent, and so people assumed that he was therefore good at everything and thrust a bunch of responsibility on him that he was in no way equipped to handle but still felt obligated to. I’m willing to bet that he had a distressingly low empathetic intelligence.
So combine high int, low wis, everybody telling you you’re smart, and having a ton of responsibility thrust on you, you’re gonna get an arrogant egomaniac who is way too anxious and paranoid to ever examine their own actions or their consequences. If I had to bet I’d say he had an ISTJ or INTJ personality. That’s pretty much exactly what you’d expect if you put someone like that in that environment.
Of course, we know little of his early life, so I might be way off base.
sounds like Aroden’s archenemy Tar Baphon
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Similar, but (again, this is just my opinion) I think the difference is that Aroden didn't really actively want to hurt or wrong anyone, he was just too emotionally immature to do any sort of reflection on his actions. Whereas Tar Baphon definitely did want to hurt and subjugate people.
But yeah, there's definitely some amusing parallels between the two.
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Aroden to me seems a classic case of being buried under expectations. He was naturally highly skilled and intelligent, and so people assumed that he was therefore good at everything and thrust a bunch of responsibility on him that he was in no way equipped to handle but still felt obligated to. I’m willing to bet that he had a distressingly low empathetic intelligence.
So combine high int, low wis, everybody telling you you’re smart, and having a ton of responsibility thrust on you, you’re gonna get an arrogant egomaniac who is way too anxious and paranoid to ever examine their own actions or their consequences. If I had to bet I’d say he had an ISTJ or INTJ personality. That’s pretty much exactly what you’d expect if you put someone like that in that environment.
Of course, we know little of his early life, so I might be way off base.
Maybe he did have a change of heart. Keep in mind, he was the god of Prophecy, and the design team has implied, he had to die for a reason, to destroy prophecy and enable the PCs to write their own destinies.
Maybe in a way this might even be in cannon. What if Aroden and Aranzi were honestly very good friends. But he had a premonition that if he helped/saved Aranzi in that moment when he might have been able to do something, something he was unwilling to allow would happen, and he had to make a choice.
Ages pass, and a new prophecy comes to him. "As long as he remains, Aranzi will never be freed; but without him, she has a chance to reclaim who she is, for herself."
With a sad realization he realizes that he must free his children, and all children, so sets in motion that which would lead to his death. His tears dropping silently to the world below him. Each tear falling through time and space to eventually land on a child. These children come to grow and be the new heroes of Golarion. A thing hard to describe from some points. These are... the PCs. Torn from the limitations of the printed word and plot and prophecy, they will determine the direction and the fate of the world. The tears even soften the hearts of the enigmatic entities of fate known as the GMs. (well all of them except of course for Jason Bulmahn, who is immune save for a few rare moments in online streams, which of course must be some strange extra-planer manifestation of some sort, whatever they are)
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That seems unlikely, IMO. Aroden's pattern was to act in his own interest without understanding the long-term consequences of his actions.
Although his decision not to intervene personally to help Arazni might have been rooted in pragmatism, since deific intervention tends to cause long-term disaster (see Sarenrae and the Pit of Gormuz, or Desna's killing of Aolar).
Aroden was also in favor of prophecy in general, so sacrificing himself to end it would be twice unusual.
Personally, I like to think either Aroden caused his own death by accident or that he was killed as a side-effect of whatever caused the death of prophecy.
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With a sad realization he realizes that he must free his children, and all children, so sets in motion that which would lead to his death.
That's pretty much always been my thought, that the meta-became-text and he literally embraced his own death* to break the chains of prophecy and give humanity the ability to choose their own destinies (which required destroying his own plans and schemes for them, as well as others, and he recognized his own tendency to play Mengkare and micro-manage them around like chess pieces, and that he could not be allowed to continue this way).
*Which may not be the same as killing himself. He might have picked some great threat to humanity, like a city of aboleths under the sea, and died blowing it up (accidentally creating the Eye of Abendago in the process, in fate blowing him a raspberry and dropping one more disastrous unintended consequence on his departing head).
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That seems unlikely, IMO. Aroden's pattern was to act in his own interest without understanding the long-term consequences of his actions.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Although his decision not to intervene personally to help Arazni might have been rooted in pragmatism, since deific intervention tends to cause long-term disaster (see Sarenrae and the Pit of Gormuz, or Desna's killing of Aolar).
Aroden was also in favor of prophecy in general, so sacrificing himself to end it would be twice unusual.
Personally, I like to think either Aroden caused his own death by accident or that he was killed as a side-effect of whatever caused the death of prophecy.
To be fair, the second one wasn't really his fault, since he didn't plan to die.
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To be fair, the second one wasn't really his fault, since he didn't plan to die.That seems unlikely, IMO. Aroden's pattern was to act in his own interest without understanding the long-term consequences of his actions.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Although his decision not to intervene personally to help Arazni might have been rooted in pragmatism, since deific intervention tends to cause long-term disaster (see Sarenrae and the Pit of Gormuz, or Desna's killing of Aolar).
Aroden was also in favor of prophecy in general, so sacrificing himself to end it would be twice unusual.
Personally, I like to think either Aroden caused his own death by accident or that he was killed as a side-effect of whatever caused the death of prophecy.
I mean, gods in tales hold mortals accountable for their flagrant displays of hubris all the time. I am absolutely willing to judge Aroden for taking possibly the most significant confluence of ley lines on the planet which brought prosperity and limitless magic to the people who lived there and deciding essentially to drill a secret personal fountain for his own use. That he also broke this incredible natural wonder because of his tampering is just a victory lap in the race to being kind of a self-centred jerk. Never even mind that he betrayed the trust of the people who let him have access to the tree in the first place.
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Wrath of the Righteous:When her own herald was kidnapped and tortured into a monster by Baphomet, Iomedae did not abandon the Hand of the Inheritor, and by all accounts, sending Mythic Heroes after him was a death sentence for Baphomet. Not sure if a clearer message had been sent since Desna slew Aolar.
I agree in principle, but there's a couple key differences:
IF your WotR group hunted down Baphomet again after the campaign (it's also super hard to *hide* from maxed out Mythic people) it's super easy to just ignore the rules for Baphomet worshipers, since there are enough Demon Lords that they don't really need to use the same one twice for anything.
IF your WotR group hunted down Baphomet again after the campaign (it's also super hard to *hide* from maxed out Mythic people) it's super easy to just ignore the rules for Baphomet worshipers, since there are enough Demon Lords that they don't really need to use the same one twice for anything.** spoiler omitted **
With the Book of the Dead and a book on Lastwall coming out I hope that means we're going to see more regarding Iomedae and Arazni. It would also be interesting to see if there's anything that Pazio can do with them that doesn't involve Tar-Baphon.
I would like both too.