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The guide to organised play states:
The following conditions are not automatically removed and must be cleared from the character before the end of the adventure or the character ceases to be available for organized play:
Death
Permanent negative effects, including polymorph or petrification
Curses
Does this mean that if you don't have the Achivement points to pay for a Second Chance Boon at the time of the adventure you can never make the character available for organised play again? Or, can you purchase the boon at some point in the future when you have saved up enough achivement points from playing other characters and then be able to use the character again?
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The guide to organised play states:
Does this mean that if you don't have the Achivement points to pay for a Second Chance Boon at the time of the adventure you can never make the character available for organised play again? Or, can you purchase the boon at some point in the future when you have saved up enough achivement points from playing other characters and then be able to use the character again?The following conditions are not automatically removed and must be cleared from the character before the end of the adventure or the character ceases to be available for organized play:
Death
Permanent negative effects, including polymorph or petrification
Curses
You know, I hadn't thought about that as an option, and it's actually sort of a neat idea, right in line with Explore, Report, COOPERATE.
I mean, since the 'resources' of a given player's characters are being shoved into one 'box', that kind of files off the serial numbers and it's this amorphous blob of 'credit' just sort of 'sitting there'.
It'd be a positive incentive for someone to KEEP playing despite the death of a beloved character, even.
What's the Shelf Life on a Resurrect/Raise Dead/etc? ie, how long do you have to cast it before it doesn't work any more?
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The guide to organised play states:
Does this mean that if you don't have the Achivement points to pay for a Second Chance Boon at the time of the adventure you can never make the character available for organised play again? Or, can you purchase the boon at some point in the future when you have saved up enough achivement points from playing other characters and then be able to use the character again?The following conditions are not automatically removed and must be cleared from the character before the end of the adventure or the character ceases to be available for organized play:
Death
Permanent negative effects, including polymorph or petrification
Curses
You could also pay the money for the ritual.
In PFS1 and SF (until this year), CPA/Fame were tied to a character, not to an account. And a character can't earn more when she's dead! I wonder if anyone on the Guide team has considered this option.
The immediate downside I see would be that if a character gets marked as dead in the reporting system it takes some effort to get that reversed.
What's the Shelf Life on a Resurrect/Raise Dead/etc? ie, how long do you have to cast it before it doesn't work any more?
1 year for the 5th-level Resurrect ritual, longer if it is heightened.
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The guide to organised play states:
Does this mean that if you don't have the Achivement points to pay for a Second Chance Boon at the time of the adventure you can never make the character available for organised play again? Or, can you purchase the boon at some point in the future when you have saved up enough achivement points from playing other characters and then be able to use the character again?The following conditions are not automatically removed and must be cleared from the character before the end of the adventure or the character ceases to be available for organized play:
Death
Permanent negative effects, including polymorph or petrification
CursesYou could also pay the money for the ritual.
In PFS1 and SF (until this year), CPA/Fame were tied to a character, not to an account. And a character can't earn more when she's dead! I wonder if anyone on the Guide team has considered this option.
The immediate downside I see would be that if a character gets marked as dead in the reporting system it takes some effort to get that reversed.
What's the Shelf Life on a Resurrect/Raise Dead/etc? ie, how long do you have to cast it before it doesn't work any more?1 year for the 5th-level Resurrect ritual, longer if it is heightened.
The guide team *did* consider this.
However at current there exists no mechanism to "unretire" a "retired" (I prefer "retire" to "dead" as there are a lot of things that can force a PC to retire that do *not* involve them dying.)
As such, you must purchase the Second Chance Boon by the end of the session (Or, in situations where there is no internet or there is some other impediment, as soon as reasonably possible, and before the GM reports the game with the character marked as dead. GMs are encourage to work with players on this. However insufficient AcP is not considered a qualifying impediment.)
That said, don't forget that you *can* buy Resurrect rituals with gold as well. (There is even an established price list in the guide now!)
While it is certainly painfully expensive at low levels, several boons, such as Envoy's Alliance "bring them back alive" can significantly reduce costs.
One of the things I worked out* when building the spellcasting price tables was how much resurrection costs at various levels in terms of Treasure bundles for that level. Assuming you have the full body, Resurrection becomes possible about level 6, but costs ~44 TB (~39 with Bring them back alive.)
Short extract from the table:
Level: TB | TB-BTBA
6th: 44 | 39
7th: 33 | 30
8th: 27 | 25
9th: 20 | 19
10th: 16 | 15
11th: 21 | 11
12th: 16 | 15
13th: 21 | 11
14th: 16 | 15
15th: 18 | 11
16th: 13 | 12
17th: 23 | 8
18th: 15 | 14
*Mostly for my own amusement, but also so that I could let leadership know if the prices were going to be highly out of line.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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This is a really good question.
On one hand, you -should- clear the condition at the table when the session is ending. On the other hand, that is practically speaking not always possible, so GM can just mark your chronicle sheet that you're dead, and need to purchase the boon.
It's clear that you must purchase the boon before you next play with the character, but it sounds unintended that you could just put them on a shelf, play a couple of games with another character to gain enough acp for the resurrection, and -then- purchase it.
On the other hand, sometimes this is unavoidable, for example when you're attending a con and your character dies on the first game, but you have four more games scheduled with other characters.
Further, there isn't really a way to track whether or not you played games with other characters between the death and the purchase of the boon (especially since the boon doesn't even list a date, and even that date wouldn't really solve the issue).
There's also the issue of missing game reports. If you have played enough games for a resurrection, but one or more of those games haven't been reported (yet), I think it would be more than fair to allow time for either 1. contacting that GM to get that missing game reported or 2. play another game with another character to make up for the missing game. Even if it was restricted (you aren't allowed to gather more acp with other characters) it would be dependent on honor system.
Considering that the time limit on resurrect ritual is one year from death, and it is practically speaking impossible to prevent players from playing more games to get enough acp for the resurrect ritual, and it's more in line with the tenets of the society (cooperation) to allow you to bring the character back to life, I don't really see any reason (or way) to prevent gathering more acp with other characters.
If OP wanted to limit this, the easiest way would be to state that after death, you have to purchase the resurrect -and- play your next game before a certain time limit has passed, to ensure that you purchased the resurrect ritual within the allowed time limit. A year for this would seem reasonable, considering that some players play really rarely, and year is the limit of the resurrect ritual too.
There's also the aspect of veteran players vs new players. New player gets to 80 acp, purchases changeling, and dies. There's no way to bring back that character if they didn't have that 40 acp banked, which would likely require 10 extra games. On the other hand, if I purchase a changeling, I still have hundreds of extra AcP to ensure that the changeling does not die permanently. Allowing players to gather more acp with other characters (for resurrection) would even the playing field, allowing players to continue their (expensive) characters regardless of whether they are veterans or new players.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Also, I'm curious about the "44 TB at level 6" because I don't think that gives an accurate picture of the price of a resurrect ritual.
Assuming the probably best case lvl 6 scenario: You're lvl 6 and missing 4xp/1 scenario from being level 7:
You've earned, at max, 2x150=300gp from lvl 6 scenarios (20TB)
at max 3x100=300gp from lvl 5 scenarios (30TB)
And at lvl 4, you would have needed to gain at least 8TB (51.4gp)
So, it will cost you, at minimum, whopping 58TB's to bring you back alive.
Assuming the worst case scenario: You've just reached level 6.
300gp from lvl 5
3x64= 194gp from lvl 4
3x38 = 114gp from level 3 games
2x22 = 44 gp from two level 2 games = total 652gp. 92 TB.
Meaning that the only gold you would have ever spent on anything would have been your starting gp, 3x14gp from level 1 games, and 22gp from your first lvl 2 game - Assuming you always got full TB's.
And this is all assuming you always got full TB's. You need to spend 652gp out of the 731gp total that you've earned, 89,2% of all your wealth.
Assuming full TB's. Assuming you don't have to sell anything back at half price. Resurrect is not "painfully expensive" at low levels, it is *financially impossible*.
Of course, you can, and should, then play a couple games with another character to fork up that 40 acp for the rebuild boon, and rebuild your character to get back to 85% of your wealth. So, selling your equipment to purchase the resurrect kinda works like a delayed resurrect boon, it's just slightly more expensive (15% of your total wealth in addition to the 40acp, less expensive if you've actually bought and used consumables or sold back some equipment at half price earlier).
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I agree. Since treasure bundles have different values at different levels, any cost in Treasure Bundles is not reflecting the real picture. You certainly can't average the value of Treasure Bundles across levels and use that number.
I think a better table would be Percent of Gross Worth at a given level.
I'm going to use full Treasure Bundles and expected Treasure Bundles.
Level - Gross Worth (full) - % of GW (full) - BTBA % of GW (full, 2/3rd level)
1 - 15 to 43 - 1833% to 640% - 465%
2 - 57 to 101 - 614% to 347% - 272%
3 - 123 to 199 - 346% to 214% - 176%
4 - 237 to 365 - 211% to 137% - 116%
5 - 429 to 629 - 134% to 91% - 79%
6 - 729 to 1029 - 89%to 63% - 56%
7 - 1179 to 1619 - 61% to 45% - 40%
8 - 1839 to 2439 - 44% to 33% - 30%
9 - 2739 to 3619 - 32% to 24% - 22%
10 - 4059 to 5259 - 23% to 18% - 17%
Make what you will of the numbers.
Since selling items is 50% of their value, those percentages could very well be double in practice.
What is the OP assumption on how much liquid cash (and therefore not subject to a 50% resale tax) a character should be sitting on in case of death?
I realize that the assumption could be 0 gp: characters are expected to die, and you'll use AcP to bring back the one you lost who is your most favorite.
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The table above represents "Number of 'at level' treasure bundles needed." not "Number of TB earned needed." (I actually have that information elsewhere in a different part of the chart. It is a big chart.)
One thing that is not in that chart, but which I did take into consideration when making my recommendations to OP leadership, was "Given the assumption that the character most likely to die is the low tier character playing at a high tier game, how many treasure bundles would the high tier PCs have to scrounge together to raise the low tier PC."
Some Clarifications:
painfully expensive at low levels
was refering to the lower levels at which it was possible (aka 6-8 out of 6-20) Not low levels of total play (1-4 out of 1-20.)
OP assumption on how much liquid cash (and therefore not subject to a 50% resale tax) a character should be sitting on in case of death?
I do not have that number. That is a judgement call players would need to make for themselves, and would probably depend on how much of an ACP buffer they have.
a pure gp purchase of a resurrection ritual is probably expected to come out of the character's at the table pooling their funds. Which is not a common occurrence
The fact that this is not a common occurrence at some tables makes me *very* sad.
On one hand, you -should- clear the condition at the table when the session is ending. On the other hand, that is practically speaking not always possible, so GM can just mark your chronicle sheet that you're dead, and need to purchase the boon.
No, once the GM has reported the game, with the character marked dead, it is too late to purchase the boon. Period.
Finally: None of this is meant to discourage people from soliciting a change to the rules to increase options for resurrection.
I have no opinion (at least none I care to share, I know what *I* would do if this were my personal campaign to run, but that is not really relevant here.) on whether the rules are too strict or too generous on this specific topic. My posts in this thread are meant *purely* informatively as to what the *current* rules are.
Please do not take them as defense or condemnation of what the rules are.
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Gold purchased resurrection seems impossible before 7th level and would bankrupt and leave a character equipment less until 8th (and not much better until after 10th).
I don't think resurrection needs to be "easy" to obtain, but if it's an option, this seems to incentivize (or at least create the illusion that this is what they should do) that players to hoard gold rather than spend it on things that might directly aid survival.
Just an observation.
I'm hoarding AcP.
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In most APs I've GMd or played, the party quickly establishes a party fund -- normal with benchmarks for raise dead/resurrections/gentle repose/breath of life, as well as other 'need to replace a weapon/armor if it gets destroyed' contingencies. It works well in a standing game. I'm not sure what the analog in society play could be,
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Gold purchased resurrection seems impossible before 7th level and would bankrupt and leave a character equipment less until 8th (and not much better until after 10th).
I don't think resurrection needs to be "easy" to obtain, but if it's an option, this seems to incentivize (or at least create the illusion that this is what they should do) that players to hoard gold rather than spend it on things that might directly aid survival.
Just an observation.
I'm hoarding AcP.
Fair, it was not my intention to create an incentive to horde gold for a resurrection pre 10th level. Only to remind people that gold purchased ressurection *is* an option. (especially with higher level PCs at the table pooling their gold. 4 level 10 PCs and a level 8 PC who died, the level 10 PCs could kick in 2-3 treasure bundles each and bring the lvl 8 res down to a much more reasonable price.)
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In most APs I've GMd or played, the party quickly establishes a party fund -- normal with benchmarks for raise dead/resurrections/gentle repose/breath of life, as well as other 'need to replace a weapon/armor if it gets destroyed' contingencies. It works well in a standing game. I'm not sure what the analog in society play could be,
To a certain extent, AcP / Fame is meant to stand in for the fact that there *isn't* a standing party fund.
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Finally: None of this is meant to discourage people from soliciting a change to the rules to increase options for resurrection.
I would start by trying to get a feel of how often, in terms of deaths per XP (or deaths per level), the player pool as a whole feels that resurrection should happen.
It's going to be hard, because there's a world of difference between "a character survives 99.5% per XP earned" and "a character survives 99.7% per XP earned" - the former averaging 1 death per 11 levels, and the latter 1 death per 19 levels - but it's really hard for players to tell the difference between 99.5% and 99.7% while playing.
Then, set the prices based on what the penalty should be - should it be proportionally harder to resurrect low level characters or high level characters? Should it be financially crippling, or merely difficult?
Side note: I'd advocate for being overly generous to new players. I like PFS1's "Get out of death free for your -1 character" welcome boon, I wish PFS2 had one too for -2001s.
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Then, set the prices based on what the penalty should be - should it be proportionally harder to resurrect low level characters or high level characters? Should it be financially crippling, or merely difficult?
in terms of GP, I imagine the Dev team pretty much intended on doing that in setting the costs in the resurrection spell.
Honestly, if I were going to express *any* opinion on this, I would *ideally* want to start with "how often do characters die at various levels, and what proportion of those are admittance boon characters."
Side note: I'd advocate for being overly generous to new players. I like PFS1's "Get out of death free for your -1 character" welcome boon, I wish PFS2 had one too for -2001s.
The closest equivalent for PFS1's welcome boon I can imagine would probably be "Check this box to get 1 additional hero point that can only be used to stabilize."
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I would *ideally* want to start with "how often do characters die at various levels, and what proportion of those are admittance boon characters."
This is data that should exist, correct? Assuming GMs faithfully use the Dead button on reporting?
I'd also be interested in seeing a histogram of number of deaths. For example, I can't imagine that "TPK minus one" happens very often.
Maybe a single character death could be handled differently than a TPK?
The closest equivalent for PFS1's welcome boon I can imagine would probably be "Check this box to get 1 additional hero point that can only be used to stabilize."
Anything that prevents a new player from feeling like they irreparably failed.
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I would *ideally* want to start with "how often do characters die at various levels, and what proportion of those are admittance boon characters."This is data that should exist, correct? Assuming GMs faithfully use the Dead button on reporting?
Exists and is extractable are entirely different creatures.
Between:
the Second chance boon purchases.
the Ancestry Boon Purchases.
the PC Death Button*.
All of that information should be derivable from a correctly structured database query.
Whether that query is even possible to run on the existing database...
(It still wouldn't get you resurrect numbers bought with gold, but as has been observed, until we get more 7-10+ those should be very, very few.)
*Caveat, there are a lot of ways to be marked dead that don't actually involve you being dead, and many cannot be fixed by resurrection. Including in one SFS scenario, defecting to the enemy.
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In most APs I've GMd or played, the party quickly establishes a party fund -- normal with benchmarks for raise dead/resurrections/gentle repose/breath of life, as well as other 'need to replace a weapon/armor if it gets destroyed' contingencies. It works well in a standing game. I'm not sure what the analog in society play could be,To a certain extent, AcP / Fame is meant to stand in for the fact that there *isn't* a standing party fund.
Yup, and I feel that generally works. Almost to the point that maybe we want a footnote on the resurrections cost table along the lines of "We don't expect character to pay for these with gold; the AcP version is typically the more affordable option; however we know there would be questions about the costs..."
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Yup, and I feel that generally works. Almost to the point that maybe we want a footnote on the resurrections cost table along the lines of "We don't expect character to pay for these with gold; the AcP version is typically the more affordable option; however we know there would be questions about the costs..."In most APs I've GMd or played, the party quickly establishes a party fund -- normal with benchmarks for raise dead/resurrections/gentle repose/breath of life, as well as other 'need to replace a weapon/armor if it gets destroyed' contingencies. It works well in a standing game. I'm not sure what the analog in society play could be,To a certain extent, AcP / Fame is meant to stand in for the fact that there *isn't* a standing party fund.
1. There are actually a few boons that let you pay for it in gold at reduced costs, so *someone* clearly intends that to be an option.
2. Second chance only covers your costs up to (IIRC) 10th level, and then only part of the cost from there on out.
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2. Second chance only covers your costs up to (IIRC) 10th level, and then only part of the cost from there on out.
If that's true, I have failed in finding a public facing description of what the boon does other than the short description. A link would be much appreciated. I would hate to buy it and find out it didn't do what I believed it to do based on the summary description.
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2. Second chance only covers your costs up to (IIRC) 10th level, and then only part of the cost from there on out.If that's true, I have failed in finding a public facing description of what the boon does other than the short description. A link would be much appreciated. I would hate to buy it and find out it didn't do what I believed it to do based on the summary description.
AcP boons are supposed to be in the FAQ, but I don't see that one there.
Here is the text of the boon as of the last time I was informed:
[ ] Second Chance (Limited-Use, Service): Adventuring is deadly business, but you have a powerful favor you can call in if your travels result in a premature death. You can check the box that precedes this boon to gain the benefits of the resurrect ritual (Pathfinder Core Rulebook page 415), so long as the ritual’s total cost in diamonds does not exceed 1,000 gp. If the ritual would cost more than 1,000 gp, you must pay any additional costs beyond 1,000 gp.The ritual takes 1 day to perform and automatically succeeds.
Note that the 1,000 gp applies the the material cost, the actual spellcasting is free.
So unless you are over 10th level, you are fine.