Missing trope for Monks


Rules Discussion


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Hello,

First and foremost, this topic is not about the power level of Monks. I played multiple ones so far and they are perfectly fine power level wise and in what they can do.

My problem with the 2E Monk is the lack of being able to attack a lot. And no, I do not consider 5 attacks (Flurry of Blows + Haste) a lot, since this is something every single martial class can accomplish with ease thanks to Archetypes/Multi-Class.

In every single other fantasy game (be it TTRPG or computer games) the monk is the class that can dish out the most number of attacks per round (or per second in real time games), albeit those attacks are not as hard hitting. Be it the 22 attacks per round the PF1 Monk could achieve, or abilities such as "Way of the Hundred Fists" in Diablo 3, Monks were always the kings of multiple attacks that hit like a wet towel.

For whatever reason Paizo decided to give the Flurry Ranger the most attacks per round with a total of 7 (Impossible Flurry + Haste) in 2E. So on top of getting the best multiple attack penalty mitigation of all classes, they also get the most attacks per round.

To avoid stepping on the toes of Rangers, I would propose the following class feat to implement this Monk trope into the 2E system:

Class Feat "Tireless Flurry" Feat Level 12
Traits: Monk
Prerequisites: Flurry of Blows

Effect: Remove the "Flourish" trait from Flurry of Blows.

This would allow the Monk to dish out as many attacks as the Flurry Ranger, but lacking the multiple attack penalty mitigation from Rangers, those attacks will be -8 at best and thus, all but optimal action usage most of the time. It has to be level 12 or higher to avoid multi-class shenanigans. 12 should be fine, as it is mostly a flavor feat and not one making you actually stronger.

I am aware that this feat would open up to 3 Stunning Fist effects per round in theory. But once again, with a -8 to hit thanks to MAP, this will almost never be relevant.

What do you guys think? Do you agree with Monk lacking this trope or do you not care about it at all? Also, if you think the Ranger should remain to be the only class that can dish out 7 attacks per turn, why?


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Subutai1 wrote:

Hello,

First and foremost, this topic is not about the power level of Monks. I played multiple ones so far and they are perfectly fine power level wise and in what they can do.

My problem with the 2E Monk is the lack of being able to attack a lot. And no, I do not consider 5 attacks (Flurry of Blows + Haste) a lot, since this is something every single martial class can accomplish with ease thanks to Archetypes/Multi-Class.

In every single other fantasy game (be it TTRPG or computer games) the monk is the class that can dish out the most number of attacks per round (or per second in real time games), albeit those attacks are not as hard hitting. Be it the 22 attacks per round the PF1 Monk could achieve, or abilities such as "Way of the Hundred Fists" in Diablo 3, Monks were always the kings of multiple attacks that hit like a wet towel.

For whatever reason Paizo decided to give the Flurry Ranger the most attacks per round with a total of 7 (Impossible Flurry + Haste) in 2E. So on top of getting the best multiple attack penalty mitigation of all classes, they also get the most attacks per round.

To avoid stepping on the toes of Rangers, I would propose the following class feat to implement this Monk trope into the 2E system:

Class Feat "Tireless Flurry" Feat Level 12
Traits: Monk
Prerequisites: Flurry of Blows

Effect: Remove the "Flourish" trait from Flurry of Blows.

This would allow the Monk to dish out as many attacks as the Flurry Ranger, but lacking the multiple attack penalty mitigation from Rangers, those attacks will be -8 at best and thus, all but optimal action usage most of the time. It has to be level 12 or higher to avoid multi-class shenanigans. 12 should be fine, as it is mostly a flavor feat and not one making you actually stronger.

I am aware that this feat would open up to 3 Stunning Fist effects per round in theory. But once again, with a -8 to hit thanks to MAP, this will almost never be relevant.

What do you guys think? Do you agree with Monk lacking this...

I think that the monk is fine the way ( I'd say the class is in a pretty good spot ) it is, as it has almost anything:

- Armor Class
- Saves
- Great focus spells
- The best action management in the game ( flurry of blows )
- Excellent stance progression ( which allows him to be a full tank, a hybrid or a pure dps )
- Bonus speed ( while other classes might require more than one action to get in range with enemies, or even get some distance from them )
-Etc...

Apart from that, the feat is off for several reasons:

1) Feat level: Lvl 12 is way too low as level to give the monk that feat ( the flurry ranger gets it by lvl 18. Plus point 2 and 3 issues )

2) Actions:

Quote:

-The flurry ranger requires to use all of its actions to activate the skill

-It also requires to have a target with prey on to benefit from the reduction. Which means that, until lvl 19 when you get swift prey, sometimes you'll be unable to use it, because you changed your prey.
-Finally, it is a lvl 18 feat, so usable only for 3 levels ( assuming you will be playing a campaign which allows you to even reach lvl 18. Most of the campaign stops around lvl 10-12 ).

3) Given the advantages the monk has, being able to strike 5 times instead of seven ( considered 2 hastened characters ) is pretty ok.

Honestly, I don't think that a comparison between 1e and 2e could help in any way ( though I can usderstand it might be difficult to adapt to a new game, coming from an older edition ).

Currently, I think that the only classes which might get some extra love are the alchemist, the investigator ( I am comparing it with the rogue class now ) and "maybe" the witch/wizard ( mostly because there are many people feeling that those classes could get some adjustments ).


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What kind of freakish exploitive build let you attack 22 times in PF1?

The standard was 8 strikes for a monk with flurry and haste. 9 if using a bow with the appropriate feats.

About the only change I think they should make for the monk is making Ki Strike last a minute per focus point. That would put them where they need to be.

Heaven's Thunder is too strong. Ki Strike is too weak. They need something with that sweet spot in the middle.

Monk's in this edition have supreme mobility, which is extremely powerful in PF2 using the 3 action system.


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Even if Flurry lacked the flourish trait by default, making attacks at max MAP really isn't a very good idea so I don't think I would use it very much.

I've seen players who take Impossible Flurry be somewhat disappointed since it's very hard to use unless you are hasted, but the appeal of that is that all of your attacks are are fairly accurate still.

I think the monk's "I am the best at action economy" schtick effectively replaces the need for the "billion attacks" on the class. The "Flurry of Misses" was never that much fun IMO.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
What kind of freakish exploitive build let you attack 22 times in PF1?

.. Summoner :)


HumbleGamer wrote:
1) Feat level: Lvl 12 is way too low as level to give the monk that feat ( the flurry ranger gets it by lvl 18. Plus point 2 and 3 issues )

The difference is Impossible Flurry is an actual powerful feat that significantly improves your DPR, whereas my feat is purely flavor, since performing attacks at -8 or -10 MAP is all but optimal. No monk would ever take that feat if it was lvl 18.

HumbleGamer wrote:

3) Given the advantages the monk has, being able to strike 5 times instead of seven ( considered 2 hastened characters ) is pretty ok.

Honestly, I don't think that a comparison between 1e and 2e could help in any way ( though I can usderstand it might be difficult to adapt to a new game, coming from an older edition ).

Currently, I think that the only classes which might get some extra love are the alchemist, the investigator ( I am comparing it with the rogue class now ) and "maybe" the witch/wizard ( mostly because there are many people feeling that those classes could get some adjustments ).

You seem to have missed the point. Monk does not need any form of "fix". Monk is perfectly fine power level wise, as mentioned. What Monk is lacking is a trope, which is what I am offering with my suggestion. Also, the comparison to PF1 could just as well have been D&D 5E instead, since there like anywhere else, the monk is also the class that can attack the most often per round.

Deriven Firelion wrote:
About the only change I think they should make for the monk is making Ki Strike last a minute per focus point. That would put them where they need to be.

This would be way too strong and power is not something Monk currently needs, at all. Sure, Ki Strike is a weak focus spell comparatively, but keep in mind it is a focus spell you can get on lvl 1 and if nothing else, it still increases your focus pool. And once in a while, when facing an enemy with a weakness to one of the damage types Ki Strike offers, it can even be quite powerful.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Even if Flurry lacked the flourish trait by default, making attacks at max MAP really isn't a very good idea so I don't think I would use it very much.

I've seen players who take Impossible Flurry be somewhat disappointed since it's very hard to use unless you are hasted, but the appeal of that is that all of your attacks are are fairly accurate still.

But that is exactly the point. This should not be a feat that makes the Monk overpowered for no reason or that you would take over every other feat without hesitation. It should not be something you spam brainlessly every single round. Once in a blue moon, if the enemy is stacked with every single debuff imaginable, it might do something useful. But aside from that, it is purely a flavor addition.

It would still open up that multi attack monk trope that is currently entirely missing in 2E.


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I'm not sure you're using the word "trope" correctly.


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Subutai1 wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:

3) Given the advantages the monk has, being able to strike 5 times instead of seven ( considered 2 hastened characters ) is pretty ok.

Honestly, I don't think that a comparison between 1e and 2e could help in any way ( though I can usderstand it might be difficult to adapt to a new game, coming from an older edition ).

Currently, I think that the only classes which might get some extra love are the alchemist, the investigator ( I am comparing it with the rogue class now ) and "maybe" the witch/wizard ( mostly because there are many people feeling that those classes could get some adjustments ).

You seem to have missed the point. Monk does not need any form of "fix". Monk is perfectly fine power level wise, as mentioned. What Monk is lacking is a trope, which is what I am offering with my suggestion. Also, the comparison to PF1 could just as well have been D&D 5E instead, since there like anywhere else, the monk is also the class that can attack the most often per round.

I don't believe Monks actually have the most attacks in 5e, they cap out as 4, same as bard and rangers thanks to Swift Quiver, and fighters can get up to 5 by dual-wielding.


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Subutai1 wrote:

But that is exactly the point. This should not be a feat that makes the Monk overpowered for no reason or that you would take over every other feat without hesitation. It should not be something you spam brainlessly every single round. Once in a blue moon, if the enemy is stacked with every single debuff imaginable, it might do something useful. But aside from that, it is purely a flavor addition.

I dissent

Encounters see the party against group of enemies of different levels.

If you are against a lvl -2/-1/0 manage to get yourself the flat footed condition ( flanking, tripped enemy, feint, etc... which is easy to get ), you'll find yourself with a -6 ( down from -8 ) on every attack. And you'll find yourself annihilate any of those.

So it's not a situation which would occour "once in a blue moon", but once or twice per fight.

Against a boss ( probably the thing more close to your blue moon scenario ) you will mostly be vs a +2/3 enemy and some adds( it's hard to find a +4, even alone ), and you'll probably find your party using all the good stuff at the boss:

-Synesthesia
-Flanking
-Inspire heroics
-Demoralize ( or other fear effects )

For example, a lvl 12 monk is going to have a + 23 hit.
A lvl 15 dragon ha 37 AC.

Even with just synesthesia and the flat footed condition, its AC drops to 32, which is lower than a +0 boss enemy. If your party doesn't have synesthesia, even a simple demoralize might help, bringing the ac down to 34, which is next to a +0 boss AC ( 33 ).

So, it would be anything but "only available on a blue moon".


MEATSHED wrote:

I don't believe Monks actually have the most attacks in 5e, they cap out as 4, same as bard and rangers thanks to Swift Quiver, and fighters can get up to 5 by dual-wielding.

They have, see Monastic Tradition Astral Self, specifically Awakened Astral Self.

HumbleGamer wrote:
If you are against a lvl -2/-1/0 manage to get yourself the flat footed condition ( flanking, tripped enemy, feint, etc... which is easy to get ), you'll find yourself with a -6 ( down from -8 ) on every attack. And you'll find yourself annihilate any of those.

So encounters that get annihilated by anything the party throws at them gets annihilated by this feat, point noted.

HumbleGamer wrote:

Against a boss ( probably the thing more close to your blue moon scenario ) you will mostly be vs a +2/3 enemy and some adds( it's hard to find a +4, even alone ), and you'll probably find your party using all the good stuff at the boss:

-Synesthesia
-Flanking
-Inspire heroics
-Demoralize ( or other fear effects )

For example, a lvl 12 monk is going to have a + 23 hit.
A lvl 15 dragon ha 37 AC.

Even with just synesthesia and the flat footed condition, its AC drops to 32, which is lower than a +0 boss enemy. If your party doesn't have synesthesia, even a simple demoralize might help, bringing the ac down to 34, which is next to a +0 boss AC ( 33 )..

If with stacking all your party has, you hit the target on a 19+ with your 3rd and subsequent attacks is overpowered for you, then we must be playing different games I guess.


You are going to have harder time only against bosses ( appreciate that we came to an agreement on any other enemy but boss ), but tactics provided you could manage to make a good use of the 7 attacks per round too.

Plus, you considered only a scenario without support stuff ( bonus status or synesthesia ), meant to synergize with your flurry.

Not to say that I deliberately took the worst level for comparison, since the AC from lvl 13 on enemies considers the "master proficiency" given to any martial character.

So it would be +1 from martial ( because AC would increase by +2, your attack by +1 and master weapon proficiency by +2, so 2 AC vs +3 hit = +1 hit for the character ), +1 from frightened ( let's not consider the critical chance ) +3 from synesthesia, on the right scenario ( character lvl 13, boss lvl 16 )

And, in my opinion, being able to hit 15+ on your third attack is enought to spam 4 extra attacks on that specific round.


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I think this is the wrong approach to an interesting idea.

Well, given the rise of Wing Chun with the Yip Man movies, I think it wouldn't be the worst idea to implement the "many blows" play style as yet another stance. Maybe something possible at level 4? Modifying the Flurry of Blows from 2 to 4 attacks, but the special unarmed Attack is a d4 of damage?

I could already see the special action feat that further develops the path as a special kind of trip that couples the action with a Flurry of Blows (if you've seen the movies, you know what I mean).

An alternate route could be achieved by making it a higher level feat that mirrors Agile Grace or the Ranger's Flurry benefits (i'm surprised that it's not already a thing, tbh).


Lightning Raven wrote:

I think this is the wrong approach to an interesting idea.

Well, given the rise of Wing Chun with the Yip Man movies, I think it wouldn't be the worst idea to implement the "many blows" play style as yet another stance. Maybe something possible at level 4? Modifying the Flurry of Blows from 2 to 4 attacks, but the special unarmed Attack is a d4 of damage?

I could already see the special action feat that further develops the path as a special kind of trip that couples the action with a Flurry of Blows (if you've seen the movies, you know what I mean).

An alternate route could be achieved by making it a higher level feat that mirrors Agile Grace or the Ranger's Flurry benefits (i'm surprised that it's not already a thing, tbh).

I like your idea to implement a style that improves Flurry of Blows at the cost of having a lower weapon damage die. For that specific style, an effect lowering the MAP in a similar way as Agile Grace would make sense. However, I would avoid giving such an effect to every single Monk, as this is exactly what I meant by stepping on the toes of other classes, which should be avoided IMO.

I hope some future book adds new feats to existing styles to make them even more interesting than they already are.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

While a stance that gives you extra lower damage attacks with Flurry of Blows could do it, I think it'd be better to solve it with a solution that increases the number of actions spent on Flurry. Those "many blows" abilities are often when the monk decides to forgo darting in and out to stand their ground and lay in.

I'd be interested in a Feat that gives you the option of using Flurry of Blows as a 2 action ability with some commensurate and flavorful benefit.

Say, rolling double the attacks but halving the damage of each, or giving one big damage die but being able to utilize overkill damage on nearby targets.


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I'd agree running it as a stance, but I'd suggest running it as a stance with follow-on feats. That really gives the most design space to really lean into the feeling of the thing.

- Stance lets you lock down to a relatively weak attack (like a d4)
- Stance with weak attack could potentially be balanced with extra attacks from lvl 1
- Stance limitation prevents any combos that might come out of mixing with other stance effects
- Extra feats as you go means that you can scale with further investment.

So... who is this for?
- From a fluff/feel standpoint, it's the guy who wants to roll a whole *bunch* of d20s and hit the enemy a whole bunch of times.
- From a crunch perspective, the thing that's really missing from monk is the 'toe-to-toe hacking match" thing where you just unload on the one guy right in front of you, primarily just doing damage. This could actually work for that.

So maybe at 1st level, you get a 2-action 4-attack flourish, where all attacks must choose the same target, with a 1d4 damage forceful (not agile) weapon. You get a later feat that upgrades your flourish, and give the weapon the agile tag. Something like that. (I'm not going to pretend that I know how to balance these things with any precision, though - I'll leave that to someone else) a few feats in, you have something that can compete reasonably well with ranger/warrior in the blender wars (more attacks, but less total damage), but only by sacrificing mobility.

We don't want to do this by handing out extra flourishes, or even extra uses of Flurry of Blows, though, because that allows for things like leaning into Flurry of Maneuvers and thus sidestepping the weakness of the weapon.


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I would probably just flavor each attack to be mutliple blows in quick succession and be done with it. You even brought up Diablo 3's Way of the Hundred Fists as an example. That's also just a three attack combo, even though the second attack does like 7 or 8 hits.


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Suppose this is more of a Homebrew than general discussion, but I think you could run something like this if you wanted in a home game.

Unless my brain isn't thinking about it correctly, it should give you a slight advantage by giving a break on the MAP penalty for all these unarmed strikes, in exchange for giving up critical specialization and other things that would make it much less useful for "crit fishing".

Blurred Fist - Level 12 (?) Monk Feat
Whenever you perform a Melee Unarmed Strike attack, you may instead make two special Strikes upon the same target. These special Strikes inherit all special abilities of the original Melee Unarmed Strike, except only deal half of their usual damage, and if they are agile their MAP penalty is -3/-6.

If both attacks hit, combine their damage, and then add any other applicable on-hit effects. You add any precision damage only once, to the attack of your choice. Combine the damage from both Strikes and apply resistances and weaknesses only once. These special strikes count as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty.

These special strikes deal double damage upon a critical success, but gain no other critical special effects, such as critical specialization, nor do they activate any items or abilities that trigger upon a critical hit.


This sounds like an attempt to ora ora/muda muda, which I am ALL ABOUT! I personally think it would work as a stance feat. Probably d4 or d6 agile, finesse, and maybe even backswing for teh lolz; while in the stance you can Flurry twice or spend two actions to hit 3/4 times on top of Flurry. Later feats might give you 3 action get 5/6 attacks, reduce your MAP in this stance a la Flurry Ranger, or add some nasty effect if all of your hits somehow manage to hit.

I might patchwork something together and shove it on the homebrew section if someone here doesn't beat me to it :P


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Lightning Raven wrote:

I think this is the wrong approach to an interesting idea.

Well, given the rise of Wing Chun with the Yip Man movies, I think it wouldn't be the worst idea to implement the "many blows" play style as yet another stance. Maybe something possible at level 4? Modifying the Flurry of Blows from 2 to 4 attacks, but the special unarmed Attack is a d4 of damage?

I could already see the special action feat that further develops the path as a special kind of trip that couples the action with a Flurry of Blows (if you've seen the movies, you know what I mean).

An alternate route could be achieved by making it a higher level feat that mirrors Agile Grace or the Ranger's Flurry benefits (i'm surprised that it's not already a thing, tbh).

I have seen a lot of Donnie Yen movies and I’ve seen all of the (Y)Ip Man movies, at least all the ones on Netflix (at the time) such as 1, 2, and 3. The leg sweep take down into the furious fast pummeling is indeed a rad monk trope and I like your idea a lot. I do agree the Wing Chun trope of the monk of a ton of tiny hits is really cool and could use some better representation.


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Dargath wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:

I think this is the wrong approach to an interesting idea.

Well, given the rise of Wing Chun with the Yip Man movies, I think it wouldn't be the worst idea to implement the "many blows" play style as yet another stance. Maybe something possible at level 4? Modifying the Flurry of Blows from 2 to 4 attacks, but the special unarmed Attack is a d4 of damage?

I could already see the special action feat that further develops the path as a special kind of trip that couples the action with a Flurry of Blows (if you've seen the movies, you know what I mean).

An alternate route could be achieved by making it a higher level feat that mirrors Agile Grace or the Ranger's Flurry benefits (i'm surprised that it's not already a thing, tbh).

I have seen a lot of Donnie Yen movies and I’ve seen all of the (Y)Ip Man movies, at least all the ones on Netflix (at the time) such as 1, 2, and 3. The leg sweep take down into the furious fast pummeling is indeed a rad monk trope and I like your idea a lot. I do agree the Wing Chun trope of the monk of a ton of tiny hits is really cool and could use some better representation.

Oh yeah, that Karate scene in the first movie is freaking amazing.

I also like that kung fu style because it has that different approach of counter-attacking at the same time you're being hit. This can lead to some interesting design space and into uncharted territory, such as a monk-style focused on having great Ready Actions. This different approach can make the feature much better if you're actually hit, instead of the adversary just critically failing or failing.

S&@@. Now I want this kind of Stance in the game!


Update: Even though Blazing Streak is not exactly what I was asking for, it still comes pretty damn close to it. 6 Actions for the price of 3 is a good deal and the image of a monk running through the enemy ranks with an insane speed while hitting them at the same time is great.

To top it all off, this is a level 10 feat, which I was afraid of at first due to potential shenanigans with multi-classing, but since those attacks are not agile, it should be fine, even with Fighter or Ranger.

I am confident that sooner or later even the 6 attacks for 3 actions will be possible for monk, to truly get an image of "the monk of a thousand strikes", which is all I was asking for in the first place.


Hundred Fists Stance (1 Action) Feat 1
Monk, Stance
Requirements: You are unarmoured
You enter a tight stance, keeping your arms before you to make small but immensely swift attacks. The only strikes you can make are Hundred Fists attacks. These deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage, are in the brawling group, and have the agile, finesse, forceful, nonlethal, and unarmed traits. While in Hundred Fists Stance, your multiple attack penalty with agile unarmed attacks becomes –3 for your second attack and –6 for subsequent attacks (rather than –4 and –8).

Thousand Fists Feat 6
Prerequisites: Hundred Fists Stance
While in the Thousand Fists stances, you can make three strikes whenever you use your Flurry of Blows instead of two.

Ten Thousand Fists Feat 14
Prerequisites: Thousand Fists
While in Hundred Fists Stance, your multiple attack penalty with agile unarmed attacks becomes –2 for your second attack and –4 for subsequent attacks.

Liberty's Edge

This really should be in homebrew.

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