Open letter to Paizo Organized play regarding uncommon stuff


Organized Play General Discussion

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Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 *

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To whom it may concern:

Listen, I like PFS 2nd Ed, I really do. And I want to thank you for all your hard work on Pathfinder 2nd Ed. I don’t want to come off as some whiney brat who can’t appreciate what he has. I appreciate your work and like what you do. But there are some issues that I think could be. . . Improved upon. One of these issues is the ability to get access to uncommon items, particularly weapons, in PFS.

Listen, I understand that you want to limit uncommon weapons. They are uncommon! They shouldn’t be on any given street corner. On the other hand, it should be possible to have a character be able to get their hands on one with some amount of effort. As it stands now, getting your hands on an uncommon weapon can be really hard, or nearly impossible. For example I thought it might be interesting to build a dwarven axe throwing fighter. I see that the Membele has double the range than the hatchet and I’m like ‘Y’know what? I’m willing to jump through a few extra hoops to get the Memble, expend some character resources. So I look into it but there are no (Dwarf) feats that give the ability to get that weapon, no backgrounds I can find, no nothing. The only way I can figure to get access to it would be to make a champion of cleric of Bes, (the only deity with that weapon as their favored weapon) level him up a bit, then pay 20 achievement points to transfer the ability to buy the Membele to a new character.

Listen, like I said, I understand making uncommon weapons harder to get, but I shouldn’t have to make and play a mule character that I don’t want to play just to get access to one weapon. Especially since a person should be able to find almost anything SOMEWHERE in Absolom.

Listen, maybe let players expend downtime ‘searching around’ to find an uncommon weapon instead of other downtime activities. Or maybe as a Downtime activity let a smith make a crafting check to design a weapon mechanically similar to an uncommon weapon. Or maybe just make a society skill feat called ‘exotic weapon collector’ where you get the ability to buy like, two uncommon weapons. I dunno, I’m spitballing here but it just seems unnecessarily hard to be able to get these weapons. You designed them and put them in the game, let us play with them! Please?

Scarab Sages 1/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Richmond

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In your specific case, you could gain access to the mambele by playing...

PFS2 Season 1 spoiler:
Pathfinder Society Scenario #1-17: The Perennial Crown Part 2, The Thorned Monarch

But in general, having a single scenario grant access to a weapon isn't ideal. It'd be nice if there were a specific boon one could purchase using AcP.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 *

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NECR0G1ANT wrote:

In your specific case, you could gain access to the mambele by playing...

** spoiler omitted **

But in general, having a single scenario grant access to a weapon isn't ideal. It'd be nice if there were a specific boon one could purchase using AcP.

Especially since chronicle sheets don’t seem to grant access to uncommon weapons anymore. Plus this issue is bigger than just, say, the Membele or the katana.

Grand Archive 4/5 5/55/5 *

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I think this thread is in the wrong forum.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Not for nothing, but that's a lot of "Listen," in the OP.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 *

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Ezekieru wrote:

Not for nothing, but that's a lot of "Listen," in the OP.

I’m sorry I didn’t finely tune this to a collegiate-quality essay, but I think my point still stands.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

VampByDay wrote:
Especially since chronicle sheets don’t seem to grant access to uncommon weapons anymore.

Citation?

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Nefreet wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Especially since chronicle sheets don’t seem to grant access to uncommon weapons anymore.
Citation?

It isn't a change. Ie, old chronicle sheets still grant access.

But they seem to have stopped doing this with new scenarios.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

And of course we don't want to be passing out lists of "hey, choose this scenario because of the reward on the chronicle."

Spoiler:
It wasn't a big deal for the first few months of the campaign, when it was reasonable to assume a large percentage of the players would play every scenario. But now that situation is far less likely. If I was to join PFS right now and play 3 scenarios each month, it will be years before I get to every scenario. I probably never would get to some. So putting access to a particular weapon (for example) on a Season 3 chronicle is probably going to mean a decent percentage of players will never get it without chronicle fishing.

Access requirements are an integral part of the Core rules. For PFS to get rid of access requirements for some options would be a massive change to the Lost Omens Campaign Setting.

Having said that, I agree. It's silly that I can't walk up to a dwarven blacksmith in Absalom and say "I would like to pay you for a dwarven waraxe" unless I am a dwarf. But that's an overall Pathfinder problem, not a problem PFS should hand-wave away.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Belafon wrote:

Having said that, I agree. It's silly that I can't walk up to a dwarven blacksmith in Absalom and say "I would like to pay you for a dwarven waraxe" unless I am a dwarf. But that's an overall Pathfinder problem, not a problem PFS should hand-wave away.

Or "This is the ancient dwarven beard bequeathed unto me by my adoptive parents because as a female half-human with orc blood growing facial hair would require a miracle from Torag."

Adoptive Ancestry, Unconventional Weaponry

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 *

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Belafon wrote:

Access requirements are an integral part of the Core rules. For PFS to get rid of access requirements for some options would be a massive change to the Lost Omens Campaign Setting.

Like I said, it shouldn't be . . . nothing. But every character should have an option for it. I'd be willing to pay a skill feat or sacrifice some downtime or have to take a specific background or pay some achievement points (Currently, RAW, Achievement points can only unlock uncommon weapons from the CORE rulebook). Again, you shouldn't be forced to make a 'mule character' that you don't want to play JUST to be able to get the one weapon you want.

2/5 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm pretty sure you can't Bequeath access gained through class features, only that gained through Chronicles.

However, I agree with the general premise that more AcP boons to grant access to newer Uncommon weapons would be helpful for more varied character customization.

Access is so tightly controlled that not just any Dwarf can buy a Dwarven waraxe but only those that took the Dwarven Weapon Familiarity feat.

One problem to this, which I mentioned in another thread, is that developers are starting to blur the lines between "Uncommon" and "Advanced" weapons, and these Advanced weapons as "Uncommon Martial" weapons may make OP hesitant to increase access to Uncommon weapons.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Blake's Tiger wrote:
However, I agree with the general premise that more AcP boons to grant access to newer Uncommon weapons would be helpful for more varied character customization.

While as a player I like having more customization options, and I do think AcP would be the better way to do this instead of chronicle boons, I'm not sure that opening access to a large range of options in this way is the best thing for the Campaign.

The Core assumption (PF2, not PFS2) is:

Quote:
Uncommon items are available only to those who have special training, grew up in a certain culture, or come from a particular part of the world. Rare items are almost impossible to find and are usually given out only by the GM, while unique ones are literally one-of-a-kind in the game. The GM might alter the way rarity works or change the rarity of individual items to suit the story they want to tell.

The normal way for someone in any PF2 campaign to gain access to an uncommon item is to have the background appropriate for it* or to spend resources (usually one or more feats) to gain access. Giving access via AcP is a resource you have don't have to spend** raising the power level of Organized Play outside the Lost Omens setting.

* A definitely related issue is that there have been a fair number of options that simply don't have any clear way to gain access when they are first published. Relying on GM fiat to say "let's make up a background that makes sense for you to have access." That's an overall PF2 problem.

** I suppose you can write an AcP boon that says "you may spend a general feat to gain access to X."

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

On a slightly different tack: does it even make sense (setting-wise) to make such boons for Society play?

I mean, there are ways to get access to the mambele. Just from the CRB you can be a Champion or Cleric of Bes. There may be archetype options that give access as well, I haven't searched everything.

So it seems that the mambele is tightly tied to Bes. But the "problem" (as posited in this thread) is that the player wants to use the mambele without being a Champion or Cleric of Bes. Should Organized Play really be creating boons that allow players to dispense with the ties to Bes?

Note: I still am not a fan of the whole "you can't buy weapon Y, even though they are being made, unless you have a specific background." But again, I see that as a PF2 problem that shouldn't be "fixed" by Organized Play.

2/5 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Quote:
Giving access via AcP is a resource you have don't have to spend** raising the power level of Organized Play outside the Lost Omens setting.

It shouldn't. Uncommon weapons should simply be less easy to obtain in Taldor not more powerful. Advanced Weapons are for more "power."

Quote:
But again, I see that as a PF2 problem that shouldn't be "fixed" by Organized Play.

It doesn't need "fixing." It needs leveraging. The whole point of the Rarity system was for the GM to define what was and wasn't available. The Rarity printed in the books is a generic Western default, for the most part. Organized Play can say, "Anyone with Varisian ethnicity can access a Bladed Scarf." Or they could create an AcP boon that represents spending sufficient time in a given culture to gain access to their culturally specific crafts.

Using Bes and the mambele as an example, why does a player have to be restricted to a Champion or Cleric to simply use a specific weapon? Why can't they be a Ranger or a Fighter or an Oracle who spent enough time with clergy of Bes to gain access (represented by AcP expenditure)?

Now, if I'm reading correctly, the mambele might be one of those Uncommon weapons that should have been an Advanced Weapon. No. No might. Definitely should be because it's a straight up upgrade to the hatchet.

That is a problem that Organized Play can't fix. So the mambele is a bad example, but there are plenty of perfectly reasonable Uncommon weapons that could be made accessible via AcP boons.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Blake's Tiger wrote:
Now, if I'm reading correctly, the mambele might be one of those Uncommon weapons that should have been an Advanced Weapon. No. No might. Definitely should be because it's a straight up upgrade to the hatchet.

You are not reading correctly. A hatchet is agile, sweep, thrown 10ft. A mambele is disarm, deadly d8, thrown 20ft.

Disarm is a little bit worse than sweep. Agile is plain different than deadly and for a lot of classes, better. Agile + sweep is interesting and agile on a thrown weapon is interesting (returning rune!). The hatchet has enough going for it. The mambele is a sidegrade with better range but otherwise somewhat worse traits.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 *

Blake's Tiger wrote:

I'm pretty sure you can't Bequeath access gained through class features, only that gained through Chronicles.

However, I agree with the general premise that more AcP boons to grant access to newer Uncommon weapons would be helpful for more varied character customization.

Access is so tightly controlled that not just any Dwarf can buy a Dwarven waraxe but only those that took the Dwarven Weapon Familiarity feat.

One problem to this, which I mentioned in another thread, is that developers are starting to blur the lines between "Uncommon" and "Advanced" weapons, and these Advanced weapons as "Uncommon Martial" weapons may make OP hesitant to increase access to Uncommon weapons.

Oh wow, YOU'RE RIGHT!

Bequeth access text (which is not listen in the Achievement points section so as to not be useful.)

Bequeath access text: https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shk2?Pathfinder-Society-Digitizat ion-Update wrote:


When you acquire this boon, select one [Uncommon/Rare/Unique] character option to which you’ve gained access through an adventure’s Chronicle Sheet or via a no-cost boon from the online boon store (e.g., a listed magic item or a boon that allows you to acquire a special animal companion).

Choose another of your characters. That character gains access to that special option instead, though they may only use the option once their level equals or exceeds the lowest level able to play the Chronicle Sheet’s adventure (e.g., 5th level for Levels 5–8). The receiving PC must also meet any prerequisites for the boon (e.g. they must be Liked by a particular faction to access that faction’s unique gear from Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide). On the Chronicle Sheet, write “Bequeathed” and the recipient character’s number next to the option. You no longer have access to that option (and must retrain the character option or sell an item back for full cost if you acquired the option and would no longer qualify for it).

Which makes it STRAIGHT UP IMPOSSIBLE to play my character I'd like to play. FUN! Because, again, they no longer seem to grant access to new things on chronicle sheets.

My question stands, WHY even make uncommon items if no one is able to get access to them, I guess except for Champions and clerics (who never get higher than expert in weapons anyway so . . . poor choice for them.)

Oh, and according to Jared Thaler (The Online Guide TEAM LEAD) you only get access to uncommon items if they are specifically called out by species or access tag:

Jared Thaler From Facebook wrote:

(Guide Team Task Force Lead)

It gets you access to any character option that has the tags:
Access: (Nation)
Access: (Region)
It does not grant you access to character options with the tag:
Access: (Ethnicity)
Even if that ethnicity is from that region.
Further, it does not grant you access to any uncommon option that does not have an Access: tag. (Which to the best of my knowledge, bladed scarf does not have.)
The fact that a given uncommon weapon is from a region *does not* mean that weapon is common in that region. As such, you do not gain access to uncommon weapons just by coming from a specific region.

Meaning no, you can't get a bladed scarf by being from Varisia. You don't even get it if you take Uncommon Weaponry as a bladed scarf is 'from' Varisia but it is not 'common' there. You ONLY get it by finding one in a home game/AP or having your main class be champion/cleric. Which is better than the juggling club, which is straight up impossible to get as no god has it as their favored weapon.

Wow this is . . . this is dumb. Like I get it, uncommon weapons should be uncommon, but they shouldn't be unattainable. It's not ambrosia, the nectar of the gods, it's a slightly more aerodynamic throwing axe/slightly better sword/Effing throwing dagger. A cleric of Bes can go out into absolom and by 10 Membleles for throwing, but my Dwarf Fighter can never find a single one? C'mon. . .

2/5 5/5 *

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I hope that's only a partial quote from Jared, because it makes it look like even if you were a given ethnicity that you couldn't take an option with Access: ethnicity.

I'm OK with gear and spells that only show up in APs only being accessible through APs (e.g., juggling club).

Bladed scarf is iconic and unfortunate that Varisians can't get it.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Blake's Tiger wrote:

I hope that's only a partial quote from Jared, because it makes it look like even if you were a given ethnicity that you couldn't take an option with Access: ethnicity.

I'm OK with gear and spells that only show up in APs only being accessible through APs (e.g., juggling club).

Bladed scarf is iconic and unfortunate that Varisians can't get it.

There is a known problem where PFS needs a list of what weapons belong to what cultures. All trivial for a home game GM to rule on and mostly obvious (I'd expect almost all GMs to accept that Varisians use bladed scarves, for example).

PFS has said they're working on it but it's obviously a very low priority (quite possibly correctly so, these are difficult times) since they said that well over a year ago.

2/5 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Even then, that would only allow non-Varisians access and only with the Unconventional Weaponry feat, at least what was discussed a year ago. They could make a list of new access conditions based on regions and ethnicities.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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We told them (Michael Sayre at the time, I think?) that creating and maintaining such a list wasn't feasible, and I still don't think it'll ever get done, but around that same time I said that I interpreted the katana FAQ as just an example to mean that you didn't need to know where an Uncommon weapon came from for Unconventional Weaponry, so long as it reasonably belonged to a culture other than your own, and Michael Sayre "liked" my post, so I've been operating off that interpretation since.

It's honestly a much less headache inducing solution than spending resources creating and maintaining a list.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 *

Blake's Tiger wrote:

I hope that's only a partial quote from Jared, because it makes it look like even if you were a given ethnicity that you couldn't take an option with Access: ethnicity.

I'm OK with gear and spells that only show up in APs only being accessible through APs (e.g., juggling club).

Bladed scarf is iconic and unfortunate that Varisians can't get it.

Nope, that is the whole quote from his facebook post about the issue.

Luckily, he seems to be a pretty chill dude. From poking around on his profile he has a quote that says "There is no one true RAW," so, it may not be as set-in-stone as it first appears.

2/5 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

"It" isn't defined, so surely there must be more.

Scarab Sages 4/5

It looks like Jared was responding to what Home Region grants you. As in being from a region grants you access to things that have the region or the nation you are from in their access conditions, but not to options reserved for a specific ethnicity. That doesn't preclude having a character of that ethnicity, who would then meet the access conditions. It just means that being from Varisia isn't enough to meet the access conditions: Parisian ethnicity requirement.

Regarding the list that Michael Sayre mentioned... since he was the one working on that list, and he left the Organized Play team shortly after that, I wouldn't expect to see it anytime soon. Maybe Alex or someone will drop in to say that someone else is working on it, but no one has done that up until this point, and they have plenty of other stuff going on.

I would personally like to see a solution that doesn't require constant updating. So something like what Nefreet said. However, I also think that there are probably examples of Uncommon weapons/equipment that should stay Uncommon. The Rhoka Sword, for example, which is already Limited, is something I see a lot of people wanting to use Unconventional Weaponry for, and I don't think that's quite the intention of the feat even if it were of Standard availability.

My guess is it might be easier to list the exceptions than to list ALL of the Uncommon weapons, etc., and which culture/region they are Common in. The only advantage to doing the longer list is that choosing a Home Region might then give you access without needing Unconventional Weaponry, which would be great for including non-Human ancestries as having a way to access things. But it's a lot of work to get there.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 *

Blake's Tiger wrote:
"It" isn't defined, so surely there must be more.

"It" was a response to the OP's question What does choosing an ethnicity get you. (More or less that was the question.) So, yes, that really is the whole post.

@Ferious Thune
There are a few things that grant you access to uncommon weaponry just by being from a region and these are specifically called out. The one that springs to mind is the Polytool, which is specifically stated to be available to everyone from Numeria.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

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Personal Opinion:

There's three big reasons that accessing uncommon options (particularly weapons) is causing so much grief in Organized Play.

1. Many items lack a way to access and use them outside of very limited class options. See "The only way to use a mambele is to be a cleric or champion of Bes. But it's not like the weapon has some spiritually imbued properties. Why can't a fighter use one?"

Spoiler:
The home game solution is very easy. If the GM doesn't handwave free access, just require a feat of some kind to be spent.

2. Some uncommon items imply that they are accessible to certain backgrounds but don't explicitly say which ones.

Spoiler:
Which again is not a problem for a home game GM. We don't want to let individual players arbitrarily choose where the katana is considered to be a common weapon. Because otherwise you are going to see some really weird combinations chosen solely for power. But there isn't time for Organized Play staff to rule on each and every item.

Even if a list was created, it would have to be continually updated as newly published materials added new items or detailed a setting where older items might be common.

3. The "uncommon" rarity level just doesn't make a lot of sense to many players when talking about ability to buy items - specifically weapons.

Spoiler:
We can wrap our head around an uncommon spell that's only available to worshipers of a particularly deity. We can understand an uncommon feat that is taught to members of a particular race and their close friends. We can even see how a weapon might be of of "rare" rarity level (an organization is deliberately trying to limit it to certain members and refuses to sell it to others).

But what is much harder to rationalize is that you can't buy a gnome flickmace (or a dogslicer, or a shuriken) unless you meet a certain set of prerequisites. Does it really make sense that every crafter in the Inner Sea is engaged in a conspiracy? "You're not a dwarf! I'm not selling you a dwarven waraxe. Your friend there is a dwarf, so he can buy a waraxe. Oh, wait. I somehow know he wasn't trained in dwarven weapon familiarity as a child, so I won't sell to him either."

It makes sense for items to be uncommon in the sense of "not used by many people." So maybe the idea of the access requirement for an uncommon weapon is simply knowing where to go to get one. But that idea kinda falls down, especially in Organized Play, when I could walk up to a dwarf fighter in the Grand Lodge and ask "hey, Torval, where would you go to buy a dwarven waraxe?"

2/5 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Quote:
What does choosing an ethnicity get you. (More or less that was the question.)

That "more or less" is important, since if the question was literally, "What does choosing an ethnicity get you," and the answer was, "It does not grant you access to character options with the tag: Access: (Ethnicity)," then it is confusingly concerning. However, if it is more what Ferious said, "What does choosing a Region get you," then the response makes more sense.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5 *

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Quote:
What does choosing an ethnicity get you. (More or less that was the question.)
That "more or less" is important, since if the question was literally, "What does choosing an ethnicity get you," and the answer was, "It does not grant you access to character options with the tag: Access: (Ethnicity)," then it is confusingly concerning. However, if it is more what Ferious said, "What does choosing a Region get you," then the response makes more sense.

Here is the full OP's original question. I guess you were right, it is what does being from a region get you . . . y'got me.

Stephen Jonathan from Facebook wrote:


PFS2 question: The org play guide says that we can choose a nation for our PCs to be a citizen of and, in turn, belong to that corresponding region. Does that grant access for uncommon items such as a bladed scarf for Varisians? If not, would that mean the only way to get access for a bladed scarf is to be a champion of certain deities? I just can’t find the answer…

Lantern Lodge

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Belafon wrote:

3. The "uncommon" rarity level just doesn't make a lot of sense to many players when talking about ability to buy items - specifically weapons.

I've said before there should be enough smiths/craftsmen/artificer in the Society to be able to make a reasonable copy of any weapon the Pathfinders have got a hold of or even seen.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Beuracracy clinging to rules that make these situations is a definitely turn off to organized play and pf2. If you can't keep track of which weapons go where then ditch the rarity rule for weapons

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Texas—Houston

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It as if the playtesters who said the rarity system was not fun and overly inner-sea centric were silenced and ignored.

Grand Archive 4/5 ***

VampByDay wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:

In your specific case, you could gain access to the mambele by playing...

** spoiler omitted **

But in general, having a single scenario grant access to a weapon isn't ideal. It'd be nice if there were a specific boon one could purchase using AcP.

Especially since chronicle sheets don’t seem to grant access to uncommon weapons anymore. Plus this issue is bigger than just, say, the Membele or the katana.

There is a Kukri on a late season 2 chronicle.

Grand Archive 4/5 ***

Donald wrote:
Belafon wrote:

3. The "uncommon" rarity level just doesn't make a lot of sense to many players when talking about ability to buy items - specifically weapons.

I've said before there should be enough smiths/craftsmen/artificer in the Society to be able to make a reasonable copy of any weapon the Pathfinders have got a hold of or even seen.

That is basically what chronicle sheet access is. But not all the artificers know all the weapons...

4/5 ***

VampByDay wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Quote:
What does choosing an ethnicity get you. (More or less that was the question.)
That "more or less" is important, since if the question was literally, "What does choosing an ethnicity get you," and the answer was, "It does not grant you access to character options with the tag: Access: (Ethnicity)," then it is confusingly concerning. However, if it is more what Ferious said, "What does choosing a Region get you," then the response makes more sense.

Here is the full OP's original question. I guess you were right, it is what does being from a region get you . . . y'got me.

Stephen Jonathan from Facebook wrote:


PFS2 question: The org play guide says that we can choose a nation for our PCs to be a citizen of and, in turn, belong to that corresponding region. Does that grant access for uncommon items such as a bladed scarf for Varisians? If not, would that mean the only way to get access for a bladed scarf is to be a champion of certain deities? I just can’t find the answer…

Pretty sure I answered this on facebook.

It grants you the nationality (and citizenship in that nation.)
It grants you the residency in that region
It grants you access to anything with the tag: Access: Nation
It grants you access to anything with the tag: Access: Region.

Bladed Scarf does not have "Access: Varisian" indicating that it is not common *even* in Varisia or among Varisians. Just as "Elven Curve Blade" is not common among elves. And just like the Membele is not common *anywhere* (as far as we know) outside a certain deity's priests and champions.

Just because something *originates* somewhere, that does not make it common there.

Grand Archive 4/5 ***

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Beuracracy clinging to rules that make these situations is a definitely turn off to organized play and pf2. If you can't keep track of which weapons go where then ditch the rarity rule for weapons

I mean, the more reasonable alternative is just ditch the weapons until the applicable region book comes out. So if you want any Tien weapons, you will need to (wait 2 years to) buy the Tien book.

Of course that means home game GMs wouldn't have any of those weapons for a couple years.

*Not everything paizo publishes is meant to be used in Org Play*

Uncommon regional weapons are an example of that.

Grand Archive 4/5 ***

Belafon wrote:

Personal Opinion:

3. The "uncommon" rarity level just doesn't make a lot of sense to many players when talking about ability to buy items - specifically weapons.

** spoiler omitted **...

Not every dwarf knows where to buy a Dwarven Battle axe. Just like not every Asian person knows where to buy a Katana.

Torval is as likely to look at you and be like "Dude? I grew up 3 blocks down from you in the puddles. My *grandfather* has one on his wall, but he won't let me touch it, let alone sell it to someone. I wouldn't have the first idea where to buy one!"

These things are *not* *common.* Not *even* among their respective races. Just because *you* have read about them in the core rule book doesn't mean your character has ever heard of one, let alone seen one, let alone knows that it is superior.

Of course, having found one on an adventure, your character could be like "Hey, this is awesome, I am going to bring (my sketch of) it back to the lodge and have the smith there make a dozen for me!"

I mean, I wouldn't mind some sort of boon that gave access to additional things. Like expansions on avid collector, or a new boon that lets you do some research at a lodge to unlock an uncommon item.

But there is also a "Okay, but how many scenarios would you be willing to sacrifice this year to buy staff time to do that." Because you are probably looking at cutting *at least* 1/2 a scenario make time to generate, discuss, curate, and produce those boons.

Grand Archive 4/5 ***

Final comment on this (for a bit.)

Quote:


It's not ambrosia, the nectar of the gods, it's a slightly more aerodynamic throwing axe/slightly better sword/Effing throwing dagger. A cleric of Bes can go out into absolom and by 10 Membleles for throwing, but my Dwarf Fighter can never find a single one? C'mon. . .

People rarely go around making sub optimal products (unless there is a substantial price savings.)

If Mambele were so common that your dwarf:

Knew they existed.
Knew they were superior.
Knew where to get them.

Then so would most weapon smiths.

And then every throwing ax would be a mambele and there would not be any throwing axes. Because why would any smith, knowing how to make a mambele, bother making throwing axes?

2/5 5/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Quote:
Bladed Scarf does not have "Access: Varisian" indicating that it is not common *even* in Varisia or among Varisians

And that is a retcon of Varisian culture.

But that's neither here nor there because it is what it is.

While the effort required to curate a list of racial weapons that unlock for a given race for AcP seems to be an overestimate, there probably are some people who wouldn't mind that production cost to have a more in-world thematic character for the life of the campaign. And I'm sure plenty of people who would find that a waste of resources.

Grand Archive 4/5 ***

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Quote:
Bladed Scarf does not have "Access: Varisian" indicating that it is not common *even* in Varisia or among Varisians

And that is a retcon of Varisian culture.

Given the massive blowback about the fact that the Varisian culture (as originally written) inculcated and engaged in many stereotypes of Travelers, they have made *major* retcons to undue the harm that was done.

That said, "Bladed Scarves" was originally an exotic weapon, and cost you a feat or an archtype to use. It was never something that was "common" even among Varisians.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Quote:
Bladed Scarf does not have "Access: Varisian" indicating that it is not common *even* in Varisia or among Varisians

And that is a retcon of Varisian culture.

Given the massive blowback about the fact that the Varisian culture (as originally written) inculcated and engaged in many stereotypes of Travelers, they have made *major* retcons to undue the harm that was done.

That said, "Bladed Scarves" was originally an exotic weapon, and cost you a feat or an archtype to use. It was never something that was "common" even among Varisians.

Are you sure you want to maintain that?

One of four traits with the human - varisian requirement

One of four seems pretty common to me

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Wait another two years that MIGHT fill in a detail that's considered such a minor point that it hasn't been addressed yet is hardly reasonable. If the cultural identity of a weapon isn't worth codifying then it isn't worth enforcing. It either is that important or it isn't.

A system putting an arcane, convoluted, backdoor ban on player options just screams that it's letting its own rules get in the way of fun. These aren't options that are hard to get because they preserve game balance.

1) Blanket rule that any proficiency option besides class that grants proficiency to a weapon grants you access to that weapon. At the very least this will let you spend weapon proficiency to get the weapon access.

2) Rule that any weapon that mentions a culture in its description or a cultural description that mentions a weapon counts as putting that weapon in that culture

3) have the organized play foundation make a list.

This is everything detractors of organized play complain about it being. This is why if someone's heard of it i have to start the spiel with "its not nearly as bad as you've heard in practice..."

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

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Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

People rarely go around making sub optimal products (unless there is a substantial price savings.)

If Mambele were so common that your dwarf:

Knew they existed.
Knew they were superior.
Knew where to get them.

Then so would most weapon smiths.

And then every throwing ax would be a mambele and there would not be any throwing axes. Because why would any smith, knowing how to make a mambele, bother making throwing axes?

Setting aside the fact that there is no "throwing axe" and that the original comparison is to a hatchet, which has different traits than a mambele, so we can't say the mambele is "strictly better." Not relevant to the discussion.

This is exactly why people like me have a problem with weapons of uncommon rarity. Maybe the mambele isn't the best example, but are you telling me that in Absalom (Absalom!) I can't find a smith who knows how to make a dwarven waraxe? Or won't make one on demand for anyone willing to pay 3gp?

Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:
Just because *you* have read about them in the core rule book doesn't mean your character has ever heard of one, let alone seen one, let alone knows that it is superior.

This is a more convincing argument. It somewhat reconciles the fact that a 1st-level fighter can stumble across a sawtooth saber and use it at trained proficiency with the fact that he can't buy one.

Though it still has the problem of information dissemination. Even without using the (primitive) internet, I didn't have a problem finding information on a subject I was really interested in when I was young. I find it hard to believe that a weapon-obsessed fighter-to-be doesn't at least know what a nunchaku is for.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Wait another two years that MIGHT fill in a detail that's considered such a minor point that it hasn't been addressed yet is hardly reasonable. If the cultural identity of a weapon isn't worth codifying then it isn't worth enforcing. It either is that important or it isn't.

A system putting an arcane, convoluted, backdoor ban on player options just screams that it's letting its own rules get in the way of fun. These aren't options that are hard to get because they preserve game balance.

This is the Organized Play problem. There's no way for a player to work with a GM to make tradeoffs. There is material that feels like it *should* be allowed in some formats, but because it isn't explicitly spelled out in black and white you're just stuck.

Quote:

1) Blanket rule that any proficiency option besides class that grants proficiency to a weapon grants you access to that weapon. At the very least this will let you spend weapon proficiency to get the weapon access.

2) Rule that any weapon that mentions a culture in its description or a cultural description that mentions a weapon counts as putting that weapon in that culture

3) have the organized play foundation make a list.

4) New general feat: Uncommon Weapon Access. Choose one uncommon weapon for which you have a proficiency rank of trained or above. You gain access to that weapon. Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you gain access to an additional weapon with which you are proficient.

It really is that easy. Of course you will then get some players wailing "I want access without having to spend a feat!" or "Now I want a feat for Rare Weapon Access!" But I guarantee the total volume would go way down.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Imagine trying to explain to a new player if their build is legal

They want to make a gnome swinging a katana.

The gnome is legal
the katana is ostensibly legal
The feat to become proficient with a katana is legal
the gnome can have the feat to swing the katana...

but the rules for the gnome to actually pick up the curved blade that they've become proficient with go down a rabbit hole of maybe probably should and sensibly that just don't work in organized play.

Belafon wrote:
This is the Organized Play problem. There's no way for a player to work with a GM to make tradeoffs. There is material that feels like it *should* be allowed in some formats, but because it isn't explicitly spelled out in black and white you're just stuck.

Its an organized play problem because the paizo general publishing expects DMs to either use common sense or not care. Expecting paizo general publishing to start caring is more of a wish than a plan. So organized play needs to solve the problem somehow.

Dark Archive 4/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku

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Yeah, uncommon tag doesn't really make sense for items that are -mundane-. +3 greater striking flaming ghost touch greatswords are more common than wakizashis or bladed scarves? Okay, sure.

It is a common problem that currently some uncommon weapons can not be accessed without being a champion/cleric of a specific deity, and some of them can only be accessed if you happen to know/play a specific scenario, and some of them can not be accessed -at all-.

While OP could state that which weapons are common in which cultures, it would probably be unfeasible because it would require keeping up a list of them up to date. It would also step somewhat onto the toes of the development, because it isn't Organized Play's job to determine, which kind of weapons get used where in the world.
On the other hand, PFS2e devs probably aren't that interested in creating a detailed list, because this is a "simple problem for a GM to resolve", so for the purposes of society play, we're at a standstill.

I think the most likely answer is that sooner or later, we might gain "avid collector 2" boon. (The Avid collector boon we currently have solves this issue for core boon uncommon weapons, such as kukri and spiked chain). Other than that, or specific scenarios granting access to specific weapons, I really don't see any other solutions manifesting.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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I think one reasonable solution, that might be viable from both sides of the argument is to just give us another boon that can unlock most items because the Society in Absalom should like be able to access or craft it.

Honestly, even if there is a single character in there with legit access to the weapon, letting others inspect it and create a formula, that seems very much in the spirit of cooperation, even if a smith might have to spend some ACP to get access to the formula or the item.

I think for nonmagical equipment... scenario access should be an alternative option that is essentially free for the character that has received it.

2/5 5/5 ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston

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I would definitely like to see more scenarios access, and more redundant scenario access. Just because scenario X gave access to item Y, it doesn't mean that scenario Z shouldn't give the same access. That way you don't feel like you played the scenario with the 'wrong' character (mainly an issue at level 1/2 before you have the ACP for bequeathal, since people want to be able to start, or at least very quickly acquire, the item that they've planned for/built around.)

I might personally prefer if non-repeatables got the bulk of bonus access items; but its also simpler on the development team to dump a bunch of frequently requested items access on a repeatable or two and call it done. They don't need to curate a list, they just need to add it to a scenario. It doesn't need to be a comprehensive list that is rationally designed -- have a new 1-4 repeatable that's about protecting an armory or something and you can easily justify an crazy list of items :)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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I don't trust scenario access. When the boon system changed last year we were told it would be a benefit because the developers would have the ability to return to published scenarios and add boons to the chronicles that would be applicable both to the theme of that scenario and the ongoing meta. However, all we have really seen is that chronicle boons have essentially died. In season one, every one of the 26 scenarios included a bonus/boon and many included multiple boons. In season two, only 4 out of 25 have boons and one of them is essentially just another version of the typical resurrection boon. In no universe is the season two version better than the season one version.

I agree with those who say a new version of the Avid Collector is probably the easiest solution, but some would complain because it will likely cost AcP which creates a gate or require a minimum reputation which delays entry. Making it free would resolve that, but if its essentially free and available to everyone, it largely destroys the entire point of the frequency/access system.

IMO, this largely comes down to a simple case of "what are you trying to accomplish?" Why do you want to create a potentially confusing system that restricts access to certain items? Are they too powerful? Is this simply a matter of narrative? Other? When you create rules for the game, this needs to be one of the first questions you ask and continue to refer back to it as the rules are created to ensure you stick to the original vision. And whatever the philosophy is, clearly convey it to the community. If you don't want players to have access to these items, then just ban them. The moment you make them available to some, you create envy and hurt feelings that manifest at the game table.

2/5 5/5 *

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Just throwing this out:

AcP 4 to 12: Gain access to one Uncommon weapon of Standard avsilability.

I like 4 because you've essentially turned your AcP earned from one scenario into Chronicle access.
Costing more is fair too because it's "on demand" rather than luck of the scenario.

Grand Archive 4/5 ***

Belafon wrote:
Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

People rarely go around making sub optimal products (unless there is a substantial price savings.)

If Mambele were so common that your dwarf:

Knew they existed.
Knew they were superior.
Knew where to get them.

Then so would most weapon smiths.

And then every throwing ax would be a mambele and there would not be any throwing axes. Because why would any smith, knowing how to make a mambele, bother making throwing axes?

Setting aside the fact that there is no "throwing axe" and that the original comparison is to a hatchet, which has different traits than a mambele, so we can't say the mambele is "strictly better." Not relevant to the discussion.

The quote I was responding to was

Quote:
It's not ambrosia, the nectar of the gods, it's a slightly more aerodynamic throwing axe/slightly better sword/Effing throwing dagger.

I was trying to be responsive to that quote.

Belafon wrote:
Maybe the mambele isn't the best example, but are you telling me that in Absalom (Absalom!) I can't find a smith who knows how to make a dwarven waraxe? Or won't make one on demand for anyone willing to pay 3gp?

It is more like "Of the 15,000* smiths in Absalom, how long would it take you to find the 15* that know how to make a proper dwarven war axe, and not a normal battle axe that looks vaguely dwarfish."

*I have no idea what those actual numbers should be, but Dwarves are apparently less common even than elves in Absalom, and elves are "Elves are relatively uncommon in Absalom, mostly consisting of adventurers or outcasts"

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