Open letter to Paizo Organized play regarding uncommon stuff


Organized Play General Discussion

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I think you're bending awfully far to explain a rules element with "real life" logic.

I think it's better to leave it at, "Yes. It can seem weird but that is what we have for now."

It's OK if a portion of the player base don't think it makes sense, but we don't really need to be explained to why we're wrong. It is what it is.

EDIT: Man, that was full of typos...

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The thing is if you're not arguing sensibly for a position maybe its because there is no sensible argument for the position in the first place.

This is a game. The entire point of the rules is to add fun. It might add fun to the collective by diminishing any individuals idea of perfect... that's not avoidable. But you have to ask what the rule is costing you and what it's giving.

A rarity system with a well curated cultural and geographic gating system arguably adds flavor to the game. It gives flavor so that a warrior from tien and one from varissia are different in ways besides on line on the character sheet. With some sort of cross cultural mechanics it hints at a story of why the samurai has a bladed scarf or why the varisian peasant is swinging a katana.

It may be worth it even though it limits player options and adds another layer of hoops to jump through.

But that's not the system we have, and it doesn't look like that's the system we're going to get. So arguing the merits of that system is a total strawman. The choice is between a backdoor ban on certain combinations and an access system that make the hellraiser box look like a game of tic tactoe or some form of guaranteed access.

Between THOSE choices, the ones we actually have not the ones we want, the choice is obvious. SOME kind of access mechanism. In character, in campaign, one freebie per character... make a list roll dice pick an option. It will be better than whats there now.

It's like the south park episode where they start a basketball league. One of the rules is the players can't get paid. It's a rule because.. its a rule. And even though we can fully change the rules at any time, we don't because.. it's a rule.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


EDIT: Man, that was full of typos...

Hold my bear

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It is more along the line of "this rule results from the designer's view of Golarion. Which is a heavily localized, heavily "balkanized" world where various groups mingle, but don't blend."

It is less that I am trying to convince you that you are wrong, and more that people keeps stating that the rule does not make sense, but my belief is that the rule emerges logically and organically from the designers view of Golarion, and that it only stops making sense if taken out of the context of the Golarion canon.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:


A rarity system with a well curated cultural and geographic gating system arguably adds flavor to the game. It gives flavor so that a warrior from tien and one from varissia are different in ways besides on line on the character sheet. With some sort of cross cultural mechanics it hints at a story of why the samurai has a bladed scarf or why the varisian peasant is swinging a katana.

It may be worth it even though it limits player options and adds another layer of hoops to jump through.

But that's not the system we have, and it doesn't look like that's the system we're going to get. So arguing the merits of that system is a total strawman. The choice is between a backdoor ban on certain combinations and an access system that make the hellraiser box look like a game of tic tactoe or some form of guaranteed access.

Except that is a false dichotomy.

The more realistic alternative is that rather than offering up a list of common and uncommon items and trying to curate the items as you build out the areas of the world (i.e. waiting for the tien book to discuss which items are common in tien, and which originate in tien but are still rare, even there.) would be for the core rule book to only have the common items, and uncommon items from other regions would be released with that regions books, where the writers have the time and knowledge base to currate the list.

Of course that would *fundamentally* screw over any non OPF GM who wanted guidance on how to stat out those items for their home game.

The uncommon items with no access requirements were included (I believe) for the benefit of non-OPF players and GMs, rather than delaying them until they can be released to OPF players.

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As your "Realistic" alternative involves time travel to undo what the core rulebook did I don't see how the dichotomy is false.

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Time travel?

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Time travel?
Quote:
would be for the core rule book to only have the common items, and uncommon items from other regions would be released with that regions books

Since the core rules have uncommon items in them this would involve going back and changing how the core rulebook was written. Delorean or telephone booth based travel would be your only option for that.

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He means that having released the core rulebook, they can't go back and change it.

He is missing my point that the developers *had* 3 choices when the rule book came out.

1. Include Uncommon weapons from other regions, and give all PFS players mechanisms for immediate access. Non PFS GMs and players will still get to use them if they decide they are appropriate.

2. Include Uncommon weapons from other regions, and wait till region books come out to give PFS players access. Non PFS GMs and players will still get to use them if they decide they are appropriate.

3. Don't include Uncommon weapons from other regions until region books come out. No one gets to use them until that region comes out.

My point was that the Devs chose Option 2 over Option 3, and probably never even considered 1, because they don't write the rules to cater to OPF.

As such option 1 was never a realistic option to begin with.

Further, how do people think it will go over when PFS says "Oh, yeah, if you come from Varisia, you can just buy a bladed scarf" And then 2 years down the road the Varisia book comes out and says "Actually, only followers of Sivana use bladed scarves as a tribute to their deity, everyone else just uses a dagger to defend themselves. " And suddenly all the PFS characters from Varisia lose access to the thing their build is based on.

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I.E. it is not a case of "here is the situation, now they need to make a choice" which people keep presenting it as.

It is a case of "when they wrote the book, they made a choice. Now we want them to change that choice."

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Ah, so BNW wants the time travel to happen.

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Quote:
He is missing my point that the developers *had* 3 choices when the rule book came out.

I don't see why that's relevant.

Because it's not.

You deal with the situation you have. Not the situation you want.

Is there any likelyhood of paizo codifying the regional weapons in anything resembling a timely manner? No. Is the core rulebook going to be re written to include FEWER things in it? No.

False trichotomy. The devs went with Option 4, let the DM sort it out.

For organized play ya'll are the dm.

Sort it out.

Organized play can change, and has changed, when it realized that the system it had in place was problematic. It does so a lot more slowly when it LOOKS like there's some controversy on the issue because people made loud objections to cover up that they have zero arguments.

Quote:
Further, how do people think it will go over when PFS says "Oh, yeah, if you come from Varisia, you can just buy a bladed scarf" And then 2 years down the road the Varisia book comes out and says "Actually, only followers of Sivana use bladed scarves as a tribute to their deity, everyone else just uses a dagger to defend themselves. " And suddenly all the PFS characters from Varisia lose access to the thing their build is based on.

Or they don't. You grandfather it in, either in general or for existing characters.

You're still acting like the rules are an external, immutable force of nature or physics rather than a course of action that people agree on.

Either that or make the detractors of organize play right when they say PFS banhammers half the options in the game. If there's a backdoor ban because of this convoluted system own up to it and label it as banhammered.

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Ah, so BNW wants the time travel to happen.

No, and not just because I don't fit in either a phone booth or a delorean.

I like having cool options. I love having all sorts of gears and wires and doohickies to build into a character. It's pointless to worry about what might have been done with the core rulebook in the past the question is what is organized play going to do about it now?

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It also completely misses the point that the problem isn't that an option wasn't written with PFS in mind.

The problem is that PFS isn't adapting to the fact that something was not being written with pfs in mind.

Which is missing a point that was clearly communicated or a deliberate strawman.

Again, when no one is countering the arguments that are being laid out and instead go off on a different tangent, strawman, or belittling characterizations it really does start to look as though there is no argument for the other side.

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Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

I.E. it is not a case of "here is the situation, now they need to make a choice" which people keep presenting it as.

It is a case of "when they wrote the book, they made a choice. Now we want them to change that choice."

No. It isn't. How are you STILL getting that wrong after being corrected this many times?

This has been clearly, repeatedly, and exhaustingly laid out.

It is not "I want them to choose differently"

It IS "I would like pfs to deal with that choice"

Possible Options for pfs to deal with that choice include

1) A PFS list of which cultures have which weapons
2) a 4 AP purchase of access to weapons
3) Ditch the system entirely
4) Allow access to the weapon with any ability that gives proficiency with the weapon (possibly disallowing class proficiency?)

Please stop stawmanning critics looking to make a change. It is completely rude, disingenuous, and insulting to deliberately ignore what is being said and asked for and complain that something else entirely isn't doable.

I don't think that the developers envisioned a society where anyone would have equal access to any weapon. But I don't think they were seeing one where people couldn't access their own cultural heritage and were instead bound by inner sea norms either. Both are way out of line, so arguing to being true to a vision doesn't work for the current position any more than it works for most of the other solutions.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

I.E. it is not a case of "here is the situation, now they need to make a choice" which people keep presenting it as.

It is a case of "when they wrote the book, they made a choice. Now we want them to change that choice."

No. It isn't. How are you STILL getting that wrong after being corrected this many times?

This has been clearly, repeatedly, and exhaustingly laid out.

It is not "I want them to choose differently"

It IS "I would like pfs to deal with that choice"

Possible Options for pfs to deal with that choice include

1) A PFS list of which cultures have which weapons
2) a 4 AP purchase of access to weapons
3) Ditch the system entirely
4) Allow access to the weapon with any ability that gives proficiency with the weapon (possibly disallowing class proficiency?)

Please stop stawmanning critics looking to make a change. It is completely rude, disingenuous, and insulting to deliberately ignore what is being said and asked for and complain that something else entirely isn't doable.

OR

5) Things are fine as they are.

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Quote:
5) Things are fine as they are.

That is a perfectly valid option for Organized Play to choose, and I'm certainly not going to stop playing if that's the way they go. However, they need to be clear that, barring the remote chance of a boon injection or random Scenario insertion, "Only Uncommon weapons with listed Access are available to those characters who meet the Access Requirement."

Try to remember that we were told by Organized Play that they were going to make a list of cultural access.

If they're not anymore, and they don't want to inject a reasonably priced boon to grant access to one uncommon weapon for those players who do like to make in-game thematic characters (or some other mechanism--I can't say fix, since it's not technically broken), then just say so.

But no, characterizing people who find the intersection between a given rule and PFS to be an issue for them as whiners is not helpful. And voicing a complaint about how a certain rules element intersects with PFS does not make one a hater of Paizo, organized play, or any less appreciative of the products they produce.

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Blake's Tiger wrote:
Try to remember that we were told by Organized Play that they were going to make a list of cultural access.

So I guess patiently waiting is out then...

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
He is missing my point that the developers *had* 3 choices when the rule book came out.

I don't see why that's relevant.

Because it's not.

You deal with the situation you have. Not the situation you want.

Because the choice was made, but you don't like the choice, so you want it to change. You don't like the fact that to fully build a Tiem character, set in Paizo's Golarion, to access all the possible options, you will have to wait for the book describing Paizo's vision of Tien to come out.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Further, how do people think it will go over when PFS says "Oh, yeah, if you come from Varisia, you can just buy a bladed scarf" And then 2 years down the road the Varisia book comes out and says "Actually, only followers of Sivana use bladed scarves as a tribute to their deity, everyone else just uses a dagger to defend themselves. " And suddenly all the PFS characters from Varisia lose access to the thing their build is based on.

Or they don't. You grandfather it in, either in general or for existing characters.

In other words "I don't want to wait for Paizo to produce their Tien source book. OPF should write it's own version of what Tien is like and then when the Tien book comes out ignore it.

Honestly, I am not even going to bother with the "If you don't do what I want, I will continue to propagate the conspiracy theory that Paizo is secretly acting in bad faith to punish you." Nothing is being ban hammered. You just aren't getting it as fast as you want in the way you want.

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Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:


Because the choice was made, but you don't like the choice, so you want it to change. You don't like the fact that to fully build a Tiem character, set in Paizo's Golarion, to access all the possible options, you will have to wait for the book describing Paizo's vision of Tien to come out.

TLDR: The plan was not to ban eastern stuff. The plan was to use DM common sense for rarity. DM common sense is incompatible with PFSs multiple value of DMs and the rules based on that plan then fall apart.

I believe you are grossly mis interpreting what the choice was.

I do not think that Paizo meant to make it impossible to play an eastern warrior but put the katana, sai, nunchucks,and shiruken in the core rules.

The choice was made to set the rarity of certain items from tien as rare, ostensibly for non tien characters. Tien characters were supposed to have access to them. The DM was supposed to use some common sense and personal taste as to when to allow what character to have what item.

There's nothing wrong with having a world where every peasant in Ustalav
can't just buy a katana.

There is definitely something wrong when the samurai can't buy the katana

There is a good argument that something is wrong when a globe trotting explorer who's been everywhere from the deepest mawangi jungle to the highest peak in the world to other planes of existance so obscure they don't have names can't get a hold of a katana.

That does not happen because of a choice in game design. That is the direct result of the interaction with a game design that defaults to "use rarity as guidance with some common sense" along with PFS rules that don't allow for a shared value of common sense. It's just two different systems that aren't meshing well together. This isn't new. It happens a lot. Usually it results in an items ban, but this time its a whole catagory of items, which is a lot more problematic.

You don't like the fact that to fully build a Tiem character, set in Paizo's Golarion, to access all the possible options, you will have to wait for the book describing Paizo's vision of Tien to come out. <--- wrong,

I think i could do it under existing Pathfinder rules. But not existing pfs rules. The difference between the two is what people are asking to ameliorate.

I don't want to wait for Paizo to produce their Tien source book. OPF should write it's own version of what Tien is like and then when the Tien book comes out ignore it. <----- Again. Wrong. OPF should either say that a katana is a tien weapon ( or a Minkaian one). You don't need an entire sourcebook to do that.

I will continue to propagate the conspiracy theory that Paizo is secretly acting in bad faith to punish you."<---

Dude, seriously. Get a grip*

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's not intentional and it doesn't have to do with anyone in particular including me. The core rules went in with one set of assumptions: The DM can just use common sense to determine what items are common where and how hard it should be to get a hold of one.

Those assumptions just don't work well for organized play

It's even been ACKNOWLEDGED by staffers that this is a problem. But not a problem with apparent solutions.

The result is a back door bans on ostensibly legal items, feats, and abilities isn't fun and is very confusing for players.

You are absolutely terrible at listening to people without interjecting your own preconceptions and paradigms. Accept that not everyone holds the same starting position you do, that they might just be saying what they mean. You might be able to tell what people are saying instead of making up the most ludicrous wide eyed nonsense for you to counter. As of right now there is absolutely zero relationship between what you're responding to and what I'm saying. And it's not because I've been unclear.

*yes, this is like charlie sheen telling you to lay off the "tiger blood". Yes, it may be hypocritical. But it should also be a warning that that guy thinks you're overdoing it....."

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That is very thorough.

However...

Couldn't most of this thread be summarized in the question,

Hey OP, where do we stand on the cultural access to items and such?

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Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

That is very thorough.

However...

Couldn't most of this thread be summarized in the question,

Hey OP, where do we stand on the cultural access to items and such?

I asked that question 2 months ago and silence was my reply. I would guess that it fell by the wayside when Michael left the team, and it seems doubtful that anyone is going to make it a priority now.

The blurb in the FAQ site for Org play is likely the only guidance in the immediate future.

“ For Unconventional Weaponry, look for access conditions based upon nationality, ethnic group, or other groups of similar broad significance. It does not cover organizations that PCs might choose to join (such as the Firebrands, Hellknights, Knights of Lastwall, or Magaambya).”

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I fully agree with BigNorseWolf and I think that's a very reasonable position, and matches what I think happened (behind the scenes).

Given that we got a new Avid Collector boon to gain access to some new uncommon items from Secrets of Magic, and that the original Avid Collector gives access to some uncommon weapons from CRB, the most likely resolution (And, in my opinion the best and easiest) is that sooner (or probably later) we'll get an avid collector boon for APG and gods&magic to allow access to most of the uncommon but mundane weapons.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:


OPF should write it's own version of what Tien is like and then when the Tien book comes out ignore it. <----- Again. Wrong. OPF should either say that a katana is a tien weapon ( or a Minkaian one). You don't need an entire sourcebook to do that.

Read that back to yourself.

"OPF should either say that a katana is a tien weapon ( or a Minkaian one)."

AKA "OPF should decide what Tien is like, and write their own version, which would then have to either be replaced by the Tien book or replace it." That is *literally* what you are saying they should do. And you are saying they should do it with *every* uncommon item that has a regional origin.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

It's even been ACKNOWLEDGED by staffers that this is a problem. But not a problem with apparent solutions.

The solution is time and waiting for the source books. I am sorry you don't like that solution, but that *is* the *acknowledged* solution.

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Did The Mwangi Expanse change any weapons to be Common for the region? I haven’t bought the book yet, but from Nethys, it looks like it only added one Common weapon, which is the Gaff. Which doesn’t really strike me as a regional weapon.

Which is to say that I don’t know that we can count on a Tien book to change rarity of anything. But that also being said, the one person at Paizo who has said we need that list is now on the design team, so maybe there’s hope.

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Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

That is very thorough.

However...

Couldn't most of this thread be summarized in the question,

Hey OP, where do we stand on the cultural access to items and such?

Where we have stood since PF2 started. If you want to know more about which cultural items are common within that culture and which are uncommon within that culture, we have to wait until the book for that culture has come out. Among other things, this involves having people familiar with the culture that inspired it weigh in on the depiction of the culture, so that you wind up with a depiction that is respectful and not an exoticized caricature. (Oh, of course every Asian Tien warrior has a katana. It's a katana, it's from Asia Tien, right?)

Every time this has been asked, that has been the answer. That we don't want to go around painting other cultures with broad, insensitive brushes, and that means taking the time to do it right, not just going down a list and making snap judgements based on our (OPF's) largely western assumptions.

(I mean, the mere fact that people are saying "I can't have a samurai without my Katana" when Katana were *not* the iconic weapon of the samurai, (they were primarily and famously horse archers) does a pretty job of illustrating this...)

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Jared Thaler wrote:


(I mean, the mere fact that people are saying "I can't have a samurai without my Katana" when Katana were *not* the iconic weapon of the samurai, (they were primarily and famously horse archers) does a pretty job of illustrating this...)

To be fair that might be a history buff argument, many players might have other sources of inspiration. I just read a manga where an "ugly" Isekai protagonist explained some katana and wakizashi facts to their "Samurai" who is actually a dragon that changed her shape after watching memories of Japanese period dramas... the point I am making badly is that one person's interpretation of something can be shaped by many things.

I guess reframing the argument slight does help, it's less "I absolutely need this weapon for my character" but rather "I would like this option for my character, that is in the book I have purchased, how can I get it, and if it is hard, why?"

EDIT: Also, Jade Regent Book 6 does have a fair number of katanas and wakizashi and naginata, though those characters also had longbows so everyone kinda has a point

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:


(I mean, the mere fact that people are saying "I can't have a samurai without my Katana" when Katana were *not* the iconic weapon of the samurai, (they were primarily and famously horse archers) does a pretty job of illustrating this...)

To be fair that might be a history buff argument, many players might have other sources of inspiration. I just read a manga where an "ugly" Isekai protagonist explained some katana and wakizashi facts to their "Samurai" who is actually a dragon that changed her shape after watching memories of Japanese period dramas... the point I am making badly is that one person's interpretation of something can be shaped by many things.

Heh, OT, but I think I just watched this weeks episode of the anime adaptation of that manga.

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That is fair.

My only (and I recognize not entirely helpful) answer is:

Not all options that are in the book are intended to be available. Many options in the core book are intended to be adjudicated by the GM on a game by game basis. Some are made to be adjudicated on a case by case basis.

Item Rarity combines aspects of both.

For games set primarily in (or originating in) a certain region, it is encouraged that the GM make adjudications on consistent basis for that game.

For example, a game set in Osirion, a kopesh might be a common weapon for everyone, but a long sword might be an uncommon weapon for everyone.

*Those* judgements OPF leadership typically makes for PFS. (And that is basically what the FAQ page and character options page are.)

But layered on top of that game by game judgement is a character by character judgement. For example, you go to your GM, and say "I have this cool back story for this character who is a Kobold who was "adopted" by Orcs from Belkzan and put to work in the drake pens (and was basically treated like a smaller, slightly more clever, drake) and the GM might say "that is pretty cool, you know, if you wanted to take an animal companion at some point, I would let you have one of the drakes you raised."

That sort of *individual * judgement is *also* the responsibility of the GM, but is much harder for the OPF to make on a *universal* basis.

And while people are saying "but I am only asking about one weapon" once the OPF goes down that route of having to open up cultural origin items, they more or less commit to ru and sing on *all* the cultural origin items...

The one "mechanism" that OPF has given itself for filtering in "uncommon " gear that is uncommon for flavor (vs mechanical) reasons, is the chronicle access.

Basically, your character *is* a world traveler, and in their travels, they encountered one of these... (or in the case of a bequethal boon, one of their colleagues brought it back, but was uninterested in it.)

If "anyone in absalom who wanted one could get their hands on one" then almost by definition it wouldn't be uncommon.

Sorry, I am starting to ramble a bit here. I think the answer I am trying to make is:

It is in this book I bought. (Not everything in every book is intended to be available in every game. Nor does purchasing a book entitle you to use every option in every game, nor (and I cannot seem to get most people to believe this, in spite of what OPF leadership and Paiso saying it repeatedly*) is the primary purpose of OPF to sell or advertise Paizo books.

"how can I get it" (look for it on a Chronicle sheet or a boon, or wait for it to come out in a book.)

"Why is it hard" (because if it were easy, *everyone* would have one, and they wouldn't be uncommon. )

*I think this is what drives me up a wall most about this. If the primary purpose of OPF was to sell or advertise Paizo's books, then OPF would be considered to be serving a "legitimate business purpose" of Paizo. And the entire structure of OPF (which relies 90% on volunteer labor) would be illegal, and the fines alone would bankrupt Paiso.

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Eric Nielsen wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:


(I mean, the mere fact that people are saying "I can't have a samurai without my Katana" when Katana were *not* the iconic weapon of the samurai, (they were primarily and famously horse archers) does a pretty job of illustrating this...)

To be fair that might be a history buff argument, many players might have other sources of inspiration. I just read a manga where an "ugly" Isekai protagonist explained some katana and wakizashi facts to their "Samurai" who is actually a dragon that changed her shape after watching memories of Japanese period dramas... the point I am making badly is that one person's interpretation of something can be shaped by many things.

Heh, OT, but I think I just watched this weeks episode of the anime adaptation of that manga.

Which Manga is this? It sounds like I might enjoy it. (Feel free to tag me on Discord.)

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There is also a very fine (and often problematic) line between "That is history, this is my fantasy inspiration." And "That is your culture, this is my stereotype view of your culture."

Katana gets a bit of a pass on that, because Japanese culture has itself embraced the Katana (though generally as a rare and special status symbol that only special people were allowed to own / wear, in other words, "uncommon")

But Mambele and Bladed Scarves both have deep ties to some fairly offensive racial / cultural stereotypes.

(Total tangent. Forget bladed scarves. I want a bladed cap. Those were way more common canonically! And would totally fit the aesthetic of the puddles district!)

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Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

The one "mechanism" that OPF has given itself for filtering in "uncommon " gear that is uncommon for flavor (vs mechanical) reasons, is the chronicle access.

Except for the last year pretty much every chronicle has been blank.

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James Anderson wrote:
Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

The one "mechanism" that OPF has given itself for filtering in "uncommon " gear that is uncommon for flavor (vs mechanical) reasons, is the chronicle access.

Except for the last year pretty much every chronicle has been blank.

And even the ones that aren't blank are "Go to this website, sort through this giant list, and wait a few months to see if anything for this scenario ever shows up. Then click a button with a 50/50 chance of telling you what it does" . But that's a problem for a different thread.

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Ferious Thune wrote:

Did The Mwangi Expanse change any weapons to be Common for the region? I haven’t bought the book yet, but from Nethys, it looks like it only added one Common weapon, which is the Gaff. Which doesn’t really strike me as a regional weapon.

Which is to say that I don’t know that we can count on a Tien book to change rarity of anything. But that also being said, the one person at Paizo who has said we need that list is now on the design team, so maybe there’s hope.

To the extent that a number of "uncommon" weapons got added to various races weapon familiarity lists, yes. Of the top of my head, as an example Conrasu got spiked chain as a "cultural" weapon.

I can't really think of any "uncommon" weapons that would be common in an "African inspired" mythos. But that may say more about my ignorance of African cultures than anything else. It did contain recommendations for *other* class options to have varying degrees of commonality (including language and ancestry)

The book that I would be stunned if it didn't have variant availability for weapons is an eventual Osirion book. (Kopesh common, long sword uncommon in Osirion has been such a canonical example. )

As for weapons common in a "Japanese inspired " setting (which is only a small subset of Tien) I, personally, would expect Yari, Tanto and Naginata to be common (replacing the spear / long spear, short sword, and various pole arms, respectively.) And the Katana, odachi, and nodachi to be uncommon.

Grand Archive 4/5 ****

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James Anderson wrote:
James Anderson wrote:
Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

The one "mechanism" that OPF has given itself for filtering in "uncommon " gear that is uncommon for flavor (vs mechanical) reasons, is the chronicle access.

Except for the last year pretty much every chronicle has been blank.
And even the ones that aren't blank are "Go to this website, sort through this giant list, and wait a few months to see if anything for this scenario ever shows up. Then click a button with a 50/50 chance of telling you what it does" . But that's a problem for a different thread.

That us only true of boons. Not item availability. Of the last 6 I gmed, 3 had uncommon items (spells, potions, and weapons.)

***

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Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:
AKA "OPF should decide what Tien is like, and write their own version, which would then have to either be replaced by the Tien book or replace it." That is *literally* what you are saying they should do. And you are saying they should do it with *every* uncommon item that has a regional origin.

This would be a more powerful criticism if you didn't point out later that OPF is separate from Paizo and not a "legitimate business interest" of Paizo.

Which is it - that OPF can't step on Paizo's toes, or that OPF is an independent organization?

The huge difference between "wait for the books" in PFS1 and PFS2 is that in PFS2, the world already exists. Tian Xia exists already, and we had PFS2 scenarios set there. You're saying OPF can't make a judgement on whether katanas are accessible in Minkai, but someone has already made that judgement!

Yes, in general, not everything in the books is accessible. And not only do I agree that's the case, I think that's good (for future expansion).

But you're not addressing BNW's core concern, that it's a very weird process by which it happens. Yes, there are rules and the rules are followable, but they're also self-imposed rules that everyone seems to think can be improved so why don't we?

"Wait for the book on Tian Xia" was not handed to us on Mount Sinai on stone tablets. We can advocate for, and some of us can change, other rules if we want.

Grand Archive 4/5 ****

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Watery Soup wrote:
Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:
AKA "OPF should decide what Tien is like, and write their own version, which would then have to either be replaced by the Tien book or replace it." That is *literally* what you are saying they should do. And you are saying they should do it with *every* uncommon item that has a regional origin.

This would be a more powerful criticism if you didn't point out later that OPF is separate from Paizo and not a "legitimate business interest" of Paizo.

Which is it - that OPF can't step on Paizo's toes, or that OPF is an independent organization?

OPF is a seperate organization, that licenses stuff from paizo. Part of the condition of that license is not "stepping on paizo's toes" by altering their material.

There is no contradiction there.

Grand Archive 4/5 ****

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Watery Soup wrote:
Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:
AKA "OPF should decide what Tien is like, and write their own version, which would then have to either be replaced by the Tien book or replace it." That is *literally* what you are saying they should do. And you are saying they should do it with *every* uncommon item that has a regional origin.
The huge difference between "wait for the books" in PFS1 and PFS2 is that in PFS2, the world already exists. Tian Xia exists already, and we had PFS2 scenarios set there. You're saying OPF can't make a judgement on whether katanas are accessible in Minkai, but someone has already made that judgement!

One of the "features" of PF2 is that they are decolonializing the PF1 books. As a result they are *remaking* those choices for PF2, in part to try to walk back racial and cultural steritypes they made before they knew better. (Like fantasy asians all walk around with Katanas. Or Fantasy travelers wander the country side in scantly clad dancing scarves...)

Watery Soup wrote:
But you're not addressing BNW's core concern, that it's a very weird process by which it happens. Yes, there are rules and the rules are followable, but they're also self-imposed rules that everyone seems to think can be improved so why don't we?

I *am* addressing BNW's concern, I am just not trying to fix the problem. The point I am addressing is that these rules are *not* arbitrary, there are reasons for them. They are "self-imposed" from *paizo's* perspective in that *all* of the rules are self-imposed, because Paizo wrote the rules. But they grew organically from Paizo's view of the setting, and changing them would involve changes to Paizo's setting.

Watery Soup wrote:
"Wait for the book on Tian Xia" was not handed to us on Mount Sinai on stone tablets. We can advocate for, and some of us can change, other rules if we want.

We can advocate for things, and I am not intending to encourage people to do things. But *OPF* can't change these rules. Only *Paizo* can do that. And "Wait for the list to come out" *was* handed to us by a Paizo dev. Which frankly makes it a lot harder for OPF to change than if it had been handed down to Moses, because OPF doesn't not have a licensing relationship with Moses.

(By the way, if you think the Paizo rules forums are full of people building obtuse arguments to find and exploit loopholes in the rules, they have ***NOTHING*** on Jewish rabbinical debates. I am very serious when I say it would be easier for the Rabbinic community to alter a law handed down by god to Moses than for OPF to alter a rule handed down by Paizo. If you do not believe me, go read the story of The Oven of Akhnai

2/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I don't think we're going to ever get a Paizo source book to include Uncommon weapon regionality, having read Jared's many, many words on the subject.

In order to avoid stereotyping a culture, they simply need never assign a real-world-equivalent to any fantasy culture. Every home game using the Lost Omens setting can decide where katanas, for example, are Common for themselves. That is the easiest thing for them to do, and I now expect that is exactly what they're going to do.

Grand Archive 4/5 ****

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Blake's Tiger wrote:

I don't think we're going to ever get a Paizo source book to include Uncommon weapon regionality, having read Jared's many, many words on the subject.

In order to avoid stereotyping a culture, they simply need never assign a real-world-equivalent to any fantasy culture. Every home game using the Lost Omens setting can decide where katanas, for example, are Common for themselves. That is the easiest thing for them to do, and I now expect that is exactly what they're going to do.

That is entirely possible, though it would be disappointing. Especially when the alternative is to produce a books like the Mwangi Expanse and Strength of Thousands that rely on authors from within that culture to produce stories that focus on that cultures authentic traditions and stories rather than on western stereotypes.

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I'm paraphrasing this from ... somewhere but I don't remember where.

The point is not to have a samurai that is more realistic.

The point is to have one that is more believable. And recognizable.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:

Did The Mwangi Expanse change any weapons to be Common for the region? I haven’t bought the book yet, but from Nethys, it looks like it only added one Common weapon, which is the Gaff. Which doesn’t really strike me as a regional weapon.

Which is to say that I don’t know that we can count on a Tien book to change rarity of anything. But that also being said, the one person at Paizo who has said we need that list is now on the design team, so maybe there’s hope.

To the extent that a number of "uncommon" weapons got added to various races weapon familiarity lists, yes. Of the top of my head, as an example Conrasu got spiked chain as a "cultural" weapon.

I can't really think of any "uncommon" weapons that would be common in an "African inspired" mythos. But that may say more about my ignorance of African cultures than anything else. It did contain recommendations for *other* class options to have varying degrees of commonality (including language and ancestry)

The book that I would be stunned if it didn't have variant availability for weapons is an eventual Osirion book. (Kopesh common, long sword uncommon in Osirion has been such a canonical example. )

As for weapons common in a "Japanese inspired " setting (which is only a small subset of Tien) I, personally, would expect Yari, Tanto and Naginata to be common (replacing the spear / long spear, short sword, and various pole arms, respectively.) And the Katana, odachi, and nodachi to be uncommon.

I don’t see spiked chain in Conrasu Weapon Familiarity. Do they just get access to it by default now? Does that make it a weapon common to a region or culture and now selectable with Unconventional Weaponry?

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