I want to preface this post by saying that I have been running 2e since the day it released, and have had the same group of players since then, so we all have a very good understanding of the system and how the difficulty of things can play out. This is also going to be a sort of one-off side story adventure to the main campaign, and they will not be playing their main characters, so if every goes absolutely off the rails horribly and ends in a TPK, it's not the end of the world. We also have been a gaming group for a long time, so the trust in me as a DM to not absolute screw them over for no reason is pretty high, so I want to make sure I get this right. Now with all that said...
I have a party of 6 players and I want to throw them up against a creature that is mechanically 5 levels higher than their current level. I am unsure on the math on this, and want to try and get down to Extreme difficulty, and not beyond.
The party will be level 16, the creature is level 21 (ancient dragon with the lich template, since draco-liches don't have their own stat blocks yet).
Now, I know that an Extreme difficulty encounter is 160 XP, +40 for each PC above 4; so my total budget is 240 XP. What I don't know is how that works out mathmatically, vs the XP of a creature that high of level.
The best I can figure out, there is a sort of pattern to the XP system... the lowest XP creature is Party-4 which gives 10 XP, then party-3 is 5 higher, party -2 is 5 higher, and party-1 is 10 higher... every 2 levels higher than that the xp amount doubles (exponentially? Im not great at remembering math terminology) So the difference between party +1 and party +2 is 20, but the difference between party +2 and party +3 is 40... ultimately going 5,5,10,10,20,20,40,40
So if that pattern holds, Party+5 XP budget SHOULD be Party+4 XP, plus an additional 80, which comes out to 240 XP, which is exactly the amount I need it to be.
Does my math make sense? Should I STILL not run the fight even if it checks out?
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Have you considered instead putting 2 level 19 creatures that occupy the same space ?
You tell them they're fighting one monster, but it has two initative tracks, shares cooldowns across them, and when the players deal enough damage to take it to half hp (kill one of its "halves) it loses one of its initiative counts (describe it as wounded).
Also creates a fun gimmick where if the creature heals itself it retains actions.
I'm about to try it in my game, I think it sounds nice on paper.
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I tried doing some maths - some assumptions are simplified
Level 16 fighter (Valeros style) +5 Str, +4 Con, +4 Dex, toughness
AC32 (34 with shield)
Attack +32 (lvl16, legendary, +3 weapon)
Damage - longsword for 3d8+13
Damage on full attack (3 attacks)
13.25 x 6 = 79.5 -> 6 rounds to take the Dragon down
Assuming he can get the Dragon Flat-Footed
17.2x6 = 103.3 damage -> 4.6 rounds
Assuming he doesn't full attack (raise shield, step, etc.)
10.6x6 = 63.6 -> 7.5 rounds to take dragon down
Dragon - full attack against AC32 (Jaw, 2 claws)
207.7 damage -> 7.2 rounds to take down 6 fighters with 248 HP each
Dragon - full attack against AC32 (Jaw, 2 claws)
231.3 damage -> 6.4 rounds to take down 6 fighters with 248 HP each
Not taken into account:
Frightful presence
Draconic Frenzy (extra attack)
Draconic Momentum (recharge of Dragon Breath on a critical)
What about Dragon Breath?
I need to get 2 characters as target to do additional damage
If I get 3 or more - juicy.
Thanks to Draconic Momentum I could Fly - Breath -> Fly/Draconic Frenzy (using Draconic Momentum at near 100%) -> Fly - Breath
Off course there are also intelligent options - take out dangerous foes first etc. instead of spreading damage. An ancient Gold Dragon is +7 Int
So in an open field / free maneuverability - the group should have zero chance. If they prepare, boost, use weakness etc. against an unprepared enemy who has limited options of maneuver - all odds are off.
So if you build up 6 Dragon Hunter characters from scratch who synergize and prepare - yes. The Dragon will go down. But the question is - would this be a +5 encounter or a +5 (-x circumstance) encounter.
Hikuen's math checks out. 240 xp is the proper encounter budget for an Extreme-Threat encounter for a 6-member party. And a level+5 creature is worth 240 xp.
However, the encounter budget formula becomes less accurate the farther the creature's level is from the party's level. For example, an incorporeal creature that can be damaged only by magic weapons and spells is fine for a level where the party is expected to be fully stocked with magic weapons. But against a party that is only 2nd level and has acquired only a single +1 shortsword finds incorporeal creatures more difficult than expected. Thus, the GM has to eyeball the individual features of the creature and judge how well the PCs can handle them.
In addition, an Extreme-Threat encounter has a 50% chance of the party losing unless the players are tactical experts. I have been throwing armies against the party in my campaign, bigger than an Extreme Threat, but my players mastered ambush tactics where they have to fight only part of the army at any moment. Does Hikuen's know tactics useful against a draco-lich?
The best I can figure out, there is a sort of pattern to the XP system... the lowest XP creature is Party-4 which gives 10 XP, then party-3 is 5 higher, party -2 is 5 higher, and party-1 is 10 higher... every 2 levels higher than that the xp amount doubles (exponentially? Im not great at remembering math terminology) So the difference between party +1 and party +2 is 20, but the difference between party +2 and party +3 is 40... ultimately going 5,5,10,10,20,20,40,40
The xp-value of a creature is exponential by level, also known as a geometric progression. The true ratio is the square root of 2, 1.414, but Pathfinder alternates the ratios 3/2 and 4/3 to keep the numbers round, since both values are close to the square root of 2 and (3/2)(4/3) = 2.
1.414 geometric series: 5 (level-6), 7 (level-5), 10 (level-4), 14 (level-3), 20 (level-2), 28 (level-1), 40 (level+0), 57 (level+1), 80 (level+2), 113 (level+3), 160 (level+4), 226 (level+5), 320 (level+6).Rounded form: 5 (level-6), 7 (level-5), 10 (level-4), 15 (level-3), 20 (level-2), 30 (level-1), 40 (level+0), 60 (level+1), 80 (level+2), 120 (level+3), 160 (level+4), 240 (level+5), 320 (level+6).
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(ancient dragon with the lich template, since draco-liches don't have their own stat blocks yet).
...
Does my math make sense? Should I STILL not run the fight even if it checks out?
I leave the detailed numerical breakdown to the others and want to dig into the question that seems to be on the background.
You have a certain idea in mind for an enemy, probably based on your campaign. Cool.
Also, you want the feel of a solo bossfight. Also cool.
But then you present the monster as somewhat inevitable that you have to use THAT stat array to represent it. You have more freedom than that; you can make any monster you want. And of course with that freedom comes responsibility: to make a monster that'll make for a great fight, not a frustrating TPK.
I personally really dislike the use of high level bosses against large parties. I think it's the wrong solution for a problem. The problem is action economy, and synergy. Six players have more actions, and can work together to pile on more buffs and debuffs.
The typical solution, a higher level monster, IS effective against that. Higher AC will hinder everyone trying to attack the monster. And make debuffs harder to apply, due to higher saves, and so forth. It could even work out "fine" in the sense that the party is a match due to its size and through shear numbers takes down the monster.
But I don't enjoy that. I don't enjoy seeing most of my spells fail because the monster easily crit saves, even if eventually we get one through because we try so many times.
I think a better solution is to focus on that action economy and synergy. You want to offset that a bit. In a way, your solo boss should very much look like he's alone, but not have the action economy of a lone lieutenant. AlastarOG's idea is very interesting in that sense.
Other variations on this theme are:
- Take your ancient dragon with lich template, which is 1-2 levels uncomfortably high. Use the GMG tables to scale it down a bit. But increase its HP.
- Give it some out of turn actions, like being able to take a free action 10ft Step once per round, and maybe multiple reactions to spend on AoOs etc.
- Give it some limited ability to shrug off multiple debuffs. The trick here is to not shrug off the first debuff, because someone may have been pouring their heart and soul into landing that. But if for example you gave your dragon three reactions per turn, a Hideous Laughter that might normally prevent all reactions, might just take away one of them. You could also allow your monster to take damage to "burn away" a condition, especially crippling ones that would prevent it from acting. And especially if it has multiple debuffs.
- Give it some abilities that force people trying to lurk in the back to take actions to cope with them. Like an aura that starts turning people to stone if they don't take a Move action in their turn of some kind. Or maybe it just has magic gravity that moves all of them 10ft closer every round which they'll get nervous about. These things work fine if a player can choose to ignore it for a round (so not instant petrification if you don't move) but get progressively dire. Getting more and more worried players is good. Uncomfortable choices (but real choices) is good.