Effects like verdant burst on leshies trigger when they die. If summoned, they also get banished when reduced to 0 hit points.
They are automatically banished if reduced to 0 Hit Points or if the spell that called them ends.
Would death technically occur after reaching 0 hit points so they get banished first? Would effects like final sacrifice, which instantly slays the creature with no hit points involved, work differently?
Some on-death effects specify reaching 0 hit as the trigger. Does that distinction change anything?
I would say yes with the caveat that many of them are Reactions which as Minions they can't use. I'd have to check that against examples for game balance though, since having to die to activate an ability seems like a hefty price worthy of a hefty effect; perhaps too hefty an effect if one can simply summon the creature.
There's fun combos to be had between the sulfur zombie and final sacrifice too.
No, summoned creatures never "die", so their "on death" effects never trigger. Summoned creatures are merely un-summoned when they hit 0 HP, and immediately returned to wherever you summoned them from.
I mean I get where you're coming from but how can we know that for sure.
I guess that a creature brought to zero could be considered dying 1 or 2 and then immediately banished, thus not dying.
But what if it dies immediately from massive damage ?
Exactly, final sacrifice in fact does not say the creature goes to zero HP and thus it doesnt meet the requirements for being banished.
It just says it is slain, which to me indicates on death effects trigger.
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Death effects states : "If you are reduced to 0 Hit Points by a death effect, you are slain instantly without needing to reach dying 4. If an effect states it kills you outright, you die without having to reach dying 4 and without being reduced to 0 Hit Points."
So general rule is that to be slain by something which is not a death effect, you have to be reduced to 0 HPs AND reach dying 4. This will never happen AFAIK to a summoned creature because of the banished at 0 HP rule.
Death effects would slay the summoned creature though.
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Death effects states : "If you are reduced to 0 Hit Points by a death effect, you are slain instantly without needing to reach dying 4. If an effect states it kills you outright, you die without having to reach dying 4 and without being reduced to 0 Hit Points."
So general rule is that to be slain by something which is not a death effect, you have to be reduced to 0 HPs AND reach dying 4. This will never happen AFAIK to a summoned creature because of the banished at 0 HP rule.
Death effects would slay the summoned creature though.
And for this : https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=384
Exactly, final sacrifice in fact does not say the creature goes to zero HP and thus it doesnt meet the requirements for being banished.
It just says it is slain, which to me indicates on death effects trigger.
I think that final sacrifice is more an exception to the rule.
The fact it might gain the evil trait is because you directly harm a sentient creature you summoned.
But a word from a developer would be nice.
I believe PF2 shifted to summoned creatures being fake, not from other planes. Eases the moral burden from the quandaries of bringing them here to struggle and die before popping back home w/ PTSD.
Whether its suffering counts as suffering or it counts as living enough (often being sentient or sapient) or whether has the vestige of a soul remain as questions. :)
Death effects states : "If you are reduced to 0 Hit Points by a death effect, you are slain instantly without needing to reach dying 4. If an effect states it kills you outright, you die without having to reach dying 4 and without being reduced to 0 Hit Points."
If reduced to 0 hit points with a death effect, doesn't the condition for both instant death and banishment (reaching 0 hit points) happen at the same time? Is there a ruling determining order of events when two or more events occur simultaneously?
This can also happen if you summon a creature whose death trigger is reaching 0 hit points (instead of dying or being slain). Calathgar is one example.
Good to know about death effects though and I wasn't even aware of massive damage.
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I don't think that the rules actually say one way or the other. And I think that is a good thing. There should be the option to rule it differently for different campaigns and character groups. The result of killing a summoned creature that has an on-death effect should happen according to the needs of the plot and the play style of the players and characters that they have created.
I don't think that the rules actually say one way or the other. And I think that is a good thing.
Sometimes ambiguity makes sense, particularly for corner cases or rules that are designed to be soft to begin with.
I don't think this is one of them though, because it's not a plot element or an interaction with soft edges, it's potentially a core part of a conjurer's strategy.
It'd be like leaving fireball's area of effect undefined and telling each table to just make it up.
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I don't think that the rules actually say one way or the other. And I think that is a good thing. There should be the option to rule it differently for different campaigns and character groups. The result of killing a summoned creature that has an on-death effect should happen according to the needs of the plot and the play style of the players and characters that they have created.Imo it's never a good idea to have to interpretate mechanics.
Rules have to be 100% clear.
Then players can be able to do their modifies depends the campaign, the setting and anything else.Obviously rules should cover the important things ( I consider this one as an extra since it doesn't affect the game if not by a single creature trait on death ), but writing in a way everything is clear is not that hard to achieve either.
For example, Shield rules ( special materials are odds, since attached weapons and sturdy shields exist ).
Writing in a way everything is clear to any reader, especially when starting from a blank page, is the most difficult thing.
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The intention is that they don't trigger. This was confirmed by OPF Leadership after they talked to the designers about this.
They even went so far as to add a clarification to Society Play, something rarely done:
[Added March 2021] Some creatures have abilities that only end or trigger when they are killed. In Organized Play, abilities that only end when a creature is killed end when a summoned version of the creature is banished. Abilities that trigger when a creature is killed do not trigger when banishing a summoned creature, including when a creature is reduced to 0 Hit Points and banished per the Summoned trait.
It's on this page, located under the Core Rulebook dropdown.
I don't think that the rules actually say one way or the other. And I think that is a good thing.Sometimes ambiguity makes sense, particularly for corner cases or rules that are designed to be soft to begin with.
I don't think this is one of them though, because it's not a plot element or an interaction with soft edges, it's potentially a core part of a conjurer's strategy.
It'd be like leaving fireball's area of effect undefined and telling each table to just make it up.
I think that is a bit of hyperbole. The rules for summoning a creature are rather well defined. The edge case of summoning a creature specifically for its on-death effect is not defined.
It is more similar to the question of whether you can cast a fireball on a chair.
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The intention is that they don't trigger. This was confirmed by OPF Leadership after they talked to the designers about this.
They even went so far as to add a clarification to Society Play, something rarely done:
[Added March 2021] Some creatures have abilities that only end or trigger when they are killed. In Organized Play, abilities that only end when a creature is killed end when a summoned version of the creature is banished. Abilities that trigger when a creature is killed do not trigger when banishing a summoned creature, including when a creature is reduced to 0 Hit Points and banished per the Summoned trait.It's on this page, located under the Core Rulebook dropdown.
They should have clarified the sudden death cases, though RAI seems clear.
BTW, RAW is the summoned creature banished in case of suddent death but HP > 0 ?
The intention is that they don't trigger. This was confirmed by OPF Leadership after they talked to the designers about this.
They even went so far as to add a clarification to Society Play, something rarely done:
[Added March 2021] Some creatures have abilities that only end or trigger when they are killed. In Organized Play, abilities that only end when a creature is killed end when a summoned version of the creature is banished. Abilities that trigger when a creature is killed do not trigger when banishing a summoned creature, including when a creature is reduced to 0 Hit Points and banished per the Summoned trait.It's on this page, located under the Core Rulebook dropdown.
Then we should accept this as 99% official errata.