| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes he can, the two are not related. But note that in this case the first attack will break the invisibility, so the second will not be a sneak attack unless flanking or some other trigger occurs.
Also, as soon as the Rogue attacks the giant can decide to change their action. The AoO goes through whatever the giant does but if the giant decides not to move 10 feet south after being attacked then the readied action never triggers.
But yes, if the AoO and the readied action are both triggered then you get both.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can only use a Readied Action once you're in Initiative, i.e. combat. Readying an Action requires a Standard Action and is meant to change your position in Initiative, so Standard Actions, and Readied Actions, can only be used while under Initiative. So if you were in combat and you stealth behind the Frost Giant, on your turn you may use a Standard Action to Ready an Action to "attack the FG if he moves", and then later in the round, the FG moves, an Attack of Opportunity is provoked for moving and this AoO is resolved immediately before anything else happens first, and then your Readied Action is also triggered, and you would resolve this attack second. The Rogue's Initiative is then changed to go directly before the Frost Giant's turn for the remainder of combat. So yes, you would get both your AoO and your Readied Action to attack with a net result of 2 attacks.
But if it's a "pre-combat stealth up to the mook" scenario, then things change a bit, because he cannot Ready an Action out of combat. But you would start a Surprise Round instead.
In a pre-combat stealth scenario, he would be able to say "DM, if the Frost Giant moves, I want to attack him" and then if/when the Frost Giant moves, an Attack of Opportunity is provoked and is immediately resolved, a Surprise Round would begin the exact second that the AoO takes place, so everyone would then roll Initiative, and every PC/mook who is aware of enemies gets to act during this Surprise Round and the Rogue would ostensibly be able to act as well. Here's where everything gets a little dicey rules-wise, because if the Frost Giant beats the Rogue in Initiative (the FG is aware of the Rogue at this point, so he gets to act in the Surprise Round), there is a chance that the Rogue wouldn't be able to use a Standard Action to attack, because the FG could choose to move 30ft away with his Surprise Round action (and if the FG moves on his turn, this provokes a 2nd AoO). However, if the Rogue defeats the FG in Initiative, then he would get to perform his Standard Action to Attack on his turn (and before the FG has a chance to move away); with a net result of 2 attacks. If the FG moves during the Surprise Round AFTER the Rogue has already performed these two attacks, then that would be a 2nd AoO, for a net result of 3 attacks.
I know this is minutia, but even though it looks exactly like a Readied Action, it is not a Readied Action because Initiative hasn't started yet. In this pre-combat stealth scenario, you would initiate a Surprise Round instead.
Even though you could end up with 3 attacks in the Surprise Round in an ideal scenario, you could also end up with only the 1 attack that started combat too, depending on what happens.
|
Also, as soon as the Rogue attacks the giant can decide to change their action. The AoO goes through whatever the giant does but if the giant decides not to move 10 feet south after being attacked then the readied action never triggers.
But yes, if the AoO and the readied action are both triggered then you get both.
I'm not sure I follow your thoughts in this.
If the enemy moves 10+ft. and therefore provoke AOO (and the attacker has reach) then how can the enemy choose not to move? If the AOO was a trip it would stop the enemy from completing his move, but he will fall prone in the space he are leaving and not in his original space.If you use a ready action on the movement it would depend on how you word it. Lets say you word it as the OP. Then the attacker attacks (If he can attack adjacent enemies) when the enemy moves the first 5 ft. If the enemy then desides to stop, the the AOO will not happen.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
The trigger for the readied action is "move 10 feet".
First, the enemy - let's say an ogre - moves out of their square, triggering an AoO. The AoO resolves and then we return to the ogre's turn.
Now the ogre can continue their turn, but they've only moved 5 feet. The Ogre has already committed to a move action , but they can choose to end that move action right there before continuing any further. Since they never moved 10 feet the readied action is never triggered.
How does that scan?
|
|
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
The trigger for the readied action is "move 10 feet".
First, the enemy - let's say an ogre - moves out of their square, triggering an AoO. The AoO resolves and then we return to the ogre's turn.
Now the ogre can continue their turn, but they've only moved 5 feet. The Ogre has already committed to a move action , but they can choose to end that move action right there before continuing any further. Since they never moved 10 feet the readied action is never triggered.
How does that scan?
Makes sense. Thanks.
OP: The Rogue needs reach in some way to threaten 10 ft.
|
It's also entirely possible that the two events trigger separately. For instance, if the giant's action was to move 5 or more feet north (not using a 5 foot step), possibly because he was moving to attack one of the rogue's allies, then as he moved he'd provoke for leaving a threatened square. The rogue would become visible. At that point, maybe the giant decides that instead of using his remaining movement to continue where he was going, he opts to use it to move back south next to the rogue or beyond him. At that point, since he's moved south, that triggers the rogue's stated Readied action and the rogue may attack (assuming the target can be reached).
Not quite. As soon as the rogue takes his attack of opportunity before the readied action triggers, he loses the readied action. When you ready an action, it can only be taken any time before your next action. As soon as you make an attack of opportunity, that is your next action and you can no longer use a readied action. The only way to use a readied action and an attack of opportunity during the same round is if the readied action is taken first.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not quite. As soon as the rogue takes his attack of opportunity before the readied action triggers, he loses the readied action. When you ready an action, it can only be taken any time before your next action. As soon as you make an attack of opportunity, that is your next action and you can no longer use a readied action. The only way to use a readied action and an attack of opportunity during the same round is if the readied action is taken first.
It's also entirely possible that the two events trigger separately. For instance, if the giant's action was to move 5 or more feet north (not using a 5 foot step), possibly because he was moving to attack one of the rogue's allies, then as he moved he'd provoke for leaving a threatened square. The rogue would become visible. At that point, maybe the giant decides that instead of using his remaining movement to continue where he was going, he opts to use it to move back south next to the rogue or beyond him. At that point, since he's moved south, that triggers the rogue's stated Readied action and the rogue may attack (assuming the target can be reached).
1) Attacks of opportunity are not an action, and thus do not cancel a readied action. They are just a thing you get to do when a certain condition is met.
2) This is debatable, but I take that text to mean before your next turn. eg, if I ready an action, I don't lose it if I choose to speak, or take an immediate action. My readied action is only lost if my turn comes up again and it has not triggered.
...an Attack of Opportunity is provoked for moving and this AoO is resolved immediately before anything else happens first, and then your Readied Action is also triggered, and you would resolve this attack second.
If something triggers both a readied action and an AoO at the same time, the rules do not define which should occur first.
Both have language that you resolve it before the provoking character continues its actions. Nothing in the rules implies that the word "immediately" used in AoO description is somehow different than the word "interrupt" used in the readed action description. It is just a different way of stating "do this thing before finishing that thing".
|
|
1) Attacks of opportunity are not an action, and thus do not cancel a readied action. They are just a thing you get to do when a certain condition is met.
2) This is debatable, but I take that text to mean before your next turn. eg, if I ready an action, I don't lose it if I choose to speak, or take an immediate action. My readied action is only lost if my turn comes up again and it has not triggered.
1) They are, in fact an action. It's even called out in the Readying an Action text. "Readying an Action - You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action." If you look at the combat options overview table from that same page I linked, you'll note it lists attacks of opportunity as a free action (as published and clarified in Melee Tactics Toolbox), which is defined as an action within the Readying an Action text.
2) It's not debatable, rules do what they say. They don't say "before the start of your next turn" they say "before your next action". That means you absolutely do lose your readied action if you take an immediate action or choose to speak (though I'd expect most GMs to be more lenient on the speech part depending on how stringently they enforce IC/OoC speech at the table.)
Realistically, the readied action resolves as soon as the condition is met, but the condition is met, but practically, you are just deciding to take a saved action. The readied action is interrupting whatever else is going on: the giant takes a step that would provoke AoO, you resolve your readied attack, then the giant resolves their step and you get your AoO. The only way this shouldn't be the case is if you readied to attack "when they are going to step away from your threaten squares entirely", not "just as soon as they move and provoke" meaning they provoke, then you haven't triggered your ready, but even then why would the giant now stop after you got your AoO for the round, to prevent the readied attack from getting off short of some metagame?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1) They are, in fact an action. It's even called out in the Readying an Action text. "Readying an Action - You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action." If you look at the combat options overview table from that same page I linked, you'll note it lists attacks of opportunity as a free action (as published and clarified in Melee Tactics Toolbox), which is defined as an action within the Readying an Action text.
You are correct.
2) It's not debatable, rules do what they say. They don't say "before the start of your next turn" they say "before your next action". That means you absolutely do lose your readied action if you take an immediate action or choose to speak (though I'd expect most GMs to be more lenient on the speech part depending on how stringently they enforce IC/OoC speech at the table.)
Sorry, I meant my view of it could certainly be debated. I offered it as what I think is RAI.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you look at the combat options overview table from that same page I linked, you'll note it lists attacks of opportunity as a free action (as published and clarified in Melee Tactics Toolbox), which is defined as an action within the Readying an Action text.
No, that entry is simply erroneous. You can only take free action when it's your turn unless something says different, and no part of the AoO rules in the CRB does so. Since the CRB explicitly talks about making AoOs during other characters' turns, one of the two books must be wrong. I think we all agree that the CRB is the more relevant source than a softcover book. AoO is not listed as a free action on the table on pg. 183 of the CRB, and the respective rules make no mention of it being any kind of action at all.
It's not debatable, rules do what they say.
Again, no. They should, but there are many rules where you can't use them as written, or otherwise the game stops working. For example, the polymorph rules clearly say that they apply only to polymorph spells, so as written, Wild Shape wouldn't use them. As written, Simple Weapon Proficiency removes all penalties for any attack with such a weapon. RAW is also style feat stances lasting indefinitely, polymorph effects which state granted attacks adding them to the creature's attacks (e.g. Form of the Dragon can grant up to 11 natural attacks), armor proficiency feats not doing anything, proficiency feats not counting for things that ask for being proficient, natural attack granting options (like Lesser Beast Totem and Shifter's Claws) stacking with each other, Eagle's Splendor granting bonus spells per day to a Sorc while active, Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend working when TWFing with two pistols or crossbows... I could go on and on.
These are examples where we have to use our human intelligence to understand that the written rules are not how the game is intended, and that we should overrule them to make the game work. I think this is another such situation.
...an Attack of Opportunity is provoked for moving and this AoO is resolved immediately before anything else happens first, and then your Readied Action is also triggered, and you would resolve this attack second.If something triggers both a readied action and an AoO at the same time, the rules do not define which should occur first.
Both have language that you resolve it before the provoking character continues its actions. Nothing in the rules implies that the word "immediately" used in AoO description is somehow different than the word "interrupt" used in the readed action description. It is just a different way of stating "do this thing before finishing that thing".
No, the AoO rules explicitly call out that AoO's are resolved immediately the exact second they are provoked, that they are not considered an action type, and they interrupt all other actions, including in the middle of a player's turn.
So, Order Precedence is: AoO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Immediate Actions > Readied Actions > PC/NPC's Turns
|
|
If you look at the combat options overview table from that same page I linked, you'll note it lists attacks of opportunity as a free action (as published and clarified in Melee Tactics Toolbox), which is defined as an action within the Readying an Action text.No, that entry is simply erroneous. You can only take free action when it's your turn unless something says different, and no part of the AoO rules in the CRB does so.
Uhhh..... Lemme just quote your next sentence.
Since the CRB explicitly talks about making AoOs during other characters' turns,
Right there. Right there is where it says you can make an attack of opportunity on someone's turn, satisfying the requirement. It is a free action (as clarified in a published source) that is specifically described as being able to be taken off turn. Check. The sources don't contradict each other, they support each other.
AoO is not listed as a free action on the table on pg. 183 of the CRB, and the respective rules make no mention of it being any kind of action at all.
Attack actions aren't listed in the CRB either, and were defined in a softcover after only existing in FAQ form for years, too. PF1 is a big messy pile of rules, but they do mostly work if you actually dig into them. For example-
It's not debatable, rules do what they say.Again, no. They should, but there are many rules where you can't use them as written, or otherwise the game stops working. For example, the polymorph rules clearly say that they apply only to polymorph spells, so as written, Wild Shape wouldn't use them.
No they don't. They're written in the context of spells but nowhere do they say they only apply to spells. Beyond that, wild shape specifically says "This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here", so anything that would be true of beast shape I (like it's polymorph status) would apply to wild shape. No contradiction or going outside of the rules required.
As written, Simple Weapon Proficiency removes all penalties for any attack with such a weapon.
That's why you read the whole feat. Because it describes what the normal status is in the next line so you know what the feat is changing.
RAW is also style feat stances lasting indefinitely,
It actually says "Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style."
So you always know that when combat starts, you can't already be using a style feat because you cannot use a style feat before combat begins.
I'll also note at this point that there's a huge difference between "this could be worded better" and "the rules don't mean what they say they do". Nothing you've mentioned so far has anything to do with attacks of opportunity being explicitly defined as free actions you can take off turn and thus canceling out a readied action if you take them.
polymorph effects which state granted attacks adding them to the creature's attacks (e.g. Form of the Dragon can grant up to 11 natural attacks),
Uhm, no? The polymorph rules state "In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks," so it's clearly in the context of being affected by a polymorph effect, and "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. " And then form of the dragon says "You also gain one bite (1d8), two claws (1d6), and two wing attacks (1d4)." If there's some weird assertion here about the natural attacks not going away after the spell, you'll note it's a spell with a duration and the rules on durations say "When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends."
Same vein, you'd have to actively not be reading eagle's splendor to miss the part where it says " Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell’s effect do increase." Like, that's right there, in the spell.
You have to read all the rules. And they're not perfect and sometimes they need clarifications, but that's a far cry from rules not doing what they say do. Most of your examples weren't even unclear rules, they were explained literally right in their own text or in the text for a pertinent trait or keyword. You have to actively ignore quite a bit of rules text to come to some of the conclusions you tried to champion.
Also, the rogue does not HAVE to use his AoO if he wants to wait for the condition.
Also, the rogue does not HAVE to use his AoO if he wants to wait for the condition.
Yeah, this.
Honestly I don't know that I've ever seen this come up.
I have characters who have used readied actions in the same round as AoOs. Usually it's a character with reach who readies an action to "attack the first enemy who comes within reach". Then when an enemy charges the readied action triggers, and if they survive I get an AoO as well.
In this case we didn't have to worry about whether I could take AoOs before my readied action went off because the readied action triggered first, but I wouldn't penalise a player for doing it in the opposite order.
Remember that a readied action is that character's turn. They're not gaining extra actions out of this, they're just using their actions in a smarter - but slightly riskier - manner. Between dropping in initiative and the potential to miss an entire turn taking readied actions is already a dubious prospect to most, don't punish them for it if it works out in their favour.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, the AoO rules explicitly call out that AoO's are resolved immediately the exact second they are provoked, that they are not considered an action type, and they interrupt all other actions, including in the middle of a player's turn.
So, Order Precedence is: AoO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Immediate Actions > Readied Actions > PC/NPC's Turns
And readied actions are resolved when?
Oh, immediately upon the triggering condition being met.
Variation in language is just that, variation in language. Devs have stated they vary the language so it does not get dull and repetitive to read. eg, "interrupt" and "immediately" are equivalent in these contexts. Both could be further interrupted if they likewise trigger a readied action or provoke an AoO, which in turn could be further interrupted, ad naseum.
Both AoO's and readied actions happen based on a trigger condition being met. Both are resolved before the triggering condition is resolved. In both cases, you resolve the AoO or readied action before continuing any other actions (except additional things you trigger as a result of them).
It is a free action (as clarified in a published source) that is specifically described as being able to be taken off turn.
Wrong. If you had bothered to actually read the rules, you would've seen that this is false. Talking about something and allowing something are not the same thing. The CRB does not "specifically describe [AoOs] as being able to be taken off turn." They way they're described and talked about leaves no doubt that you can do that, but it's not actually said - because as not-actions, it doesn't need to be said. If they were free actions, it would need to be said.
Attack actions aren't listed in the CRB either
- Wrong again. Another statement that you could've seen to be false if you had only bothered to look at what the book says. The literally first entry in the actions of combat list is the attack action.
Also, the attack action is described under "standard actions", whereas the AoO rules are not in the "actions in combat" section, but in the "combat statistics" section.
No they don't. They're written in the context of spells but nowhere do they say they only apply to spells.
Yes they do. "A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses." CRB pg. 211 "Spell", not "spell or effect". So yes, the polymorph rules clearly do only talk about spells.
That's why you read the whole feat. Because it describes what the normal status is in the next line so you know what the feat is changing.
The benefits section of the feat, i.e. the rule text section of the feat, is literally just one sentence. The normal section of a feat does not change or make rules. The normal section of SWP helps you see what the benefits section is intended to do, but it doesn't alter what it actually does.
It actually says "Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style."
So you always know that when combat starts, you can't already be using a style feat because you cannot use a style feat before combat begins.
There's a difference between using a style and being in a style. You can't adopt a style before combat starts, and you can't benefit form a style feat outside of combat, but nothing prevents you from being in a stance after combat.
Uhm, no? The polymorph rules state "In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks," so it's clearly in the context of being affected by a polymorph effect, and "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. " And then form of the dragon says "You also gain one bite (1d8), two claws (1d6), and two wing attacks (1d4)."
You seem to not even understand what I'm talking about. The spell says you gain "one bite (1d8), two claws (1d6), and two wing attacks (1d4)". The polymorph rules say "In addition to [the] benefits [listed in the spell], you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature". This means you gain the attacks noted by the spell, and in addition gain the attacks in the creature's stat block.
Same vein, you'd have to actively not be reading eagle's splendor to miss the part where it says " Bards, paladins, and sorcerers (and other spellcasters who rely on Charisma) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Charisma, but the save DCs for spells they cast while under this spell’s effect do increase." Like, that's right there, in the spell.
Ok, that's no me. The rule issue still exists for other spells (like Threefold Aspect), effects (like Cognatogen), and magic items (like stat boosing headbands), though, because while the rules make some nebulous statement about "Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.", never do they say that temporary bonuses don't apply to certain things, and this FAQ explicitly says that the list for temporary effects isn't exhaustive, and that temporary effects do the same stuff as permanent bonuses.
|
|
Wrong. If you had bothered to actually read the rules, you would've seen that this is false. Talking about something and allowing something are not the same thing. The CRB does not "specifically describe [AoOs] as being able to be taken off turn." They way they're described and talked about leaves no doubt that you can do that, but it's not actually said - because as not-actions, it doesn't need to be said. If they were free actions, it would need to be said.
Page 180, CRB-
"Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work."Like most of these assertions, the problem here is you trying to read one thing that regards a rule instead of taking it in in context with the rest of the applicable rules. It's easy to do, PF1 is super dense and used splatbooks and preceding hardcovers to patch a lot of things that wouldn't fit copyfit in the CRB. Speaking of which....
Wrong again. Another statement that you could've seen to be false if you had only bothered to look at what the book says. The literally first entry in the actions of combat list is the attack action.
Oof, double literacy fail there. Let's start with posting my whole quote- "Attack actions aren't listed in the CRB either, and were defined in a softcover after only existing in FAQ form for years, too."
You see, what is listed in that table and described in the first entry are attacks, which are not the same thing as the attack actions. See the Vital Strike FAQ- "No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action."
So as the FAQ notes, and as you can see by reading things like the Natural Attack, Attack of Opportunity, Multiple Attacks, and Full Attack entries, Attacks can be made as a standard action but not all attacks are attack actions and the only places clarifying that for years, as I noted, were the FAQ and the softcover release that took the time to actually define an attack action separately from attacks. You'll notice that "attack action" isn't listed anywhere in that table, just "Attacks (melee)" and "Attacks (ranged)". If that were referring to attack actions specifically, as you suggest, then it would mean that making a ranged attack as part of a full attack doesn't actually provoke an attack of opportunity, because that section, in your version, refers to attack actions which attacks made as part of a full attack are not.
It can be a tricky distinction, especially if you're only using d20pfsrd since it compiles information from a lot of the sources to the same page and isn't always great with its attributions, but if you look at where attack action is described on that page, you'll see the source is not the CRB, it's Melee Tactics Toolbox. And if you actually open up a CRB, you'll see it only defines attacks but not attack actions.
(Melee Tactics Toolbox is really worth picking up. That table in the back goes a long way to clarifying rules that were not fully explained in the CRB, not just the action type of AoOs and the difference between attacks and attack actions.)
You see, what is listed in that table and described in the first entry are attacks, which are not the same thing as the attack actions.
And with that statement you've shown that your understanding of the rules is so poor that any discussion is pointless.
In the attack roll rules on pg. 178: "(see the attack action on page 182)".
It's also funny that you accuse my of "only using d20pfsrd" after all my links in this thread have been to AoN and I have sourced the actual books.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And readied actions are resolved when?
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).
AoO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Immediate Actions > Readied Actions > PC/NPC's Turns
And readied actions are resolved when?
AoO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Immediate Actions > Readied Actions > PC/NPC's Turns
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).
Do you have a rules citation for that? A readied action could interrupt a immediate action just as easily as an AoO could.
eg. I ready an action to attack the wizard if he casts a spell. This goes off if
1) It is the wizards turn and he casts a spell.
2) Is is the wizards turn and he casts a swift action spell
3) It is someone elses turn and the wizard casts an immediate action spell.
Likewise, if I ready an action to do X if the monster attacks my figher friend. If the figher provokes an AoO, and the monster uses it to make an attack, then my readied action goes off and is resolved before the AoO is resolved.
Thus we can see that AoOs and readied actions have no precedence over one another. All that matters is when the triggering condition occurs.
Note that an immediate action could also take place between an AoO being triggered and resolved. The language in AoO is not that other things can't happen before an AoO is resolved, only that the character triggering the AoO does not finish their action/turn till after the AoO is resolved.
...then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn...
that is, nothing about an AoO stops other things from interrupting the AoO if appropriate. If this weren't the case you could not take an AoO during someone elses AoO - like if I use my AoO to try and disarm (without improved disarm) then I also trigger an AoO, and THAT AoO needs to be resolved before my AoO is resolved.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just gonna put this out there: People are getting a little heated, maybe we should just let this thread drop. It's honestly not that important if we understand these rules a little differently.
Do you have a rules citation for that?
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity
Once an AoO is provoked, you resolve it immediately. You don't get to use Immediate Actions or Readied Actions to interrupt an AoO.
A Readied Action can be interrupted by an Immediate Action.
Oh well, I tried.
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you’ve already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it’s not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
So Readied Actions and AoOs both talk about interrupting other actions. Immediate Actions say "at any time" but don't specifically say they interrupt, so it could be argued that they are performed at any time between actions , but often the specific immediate actions themselves tell you when they occur ...
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.
This Immediate action clearly interrupts the triggering action, and since that action could 100% be an AoO, a Readied Rction, or even another Immediate Action it definitely can be used to interrupt any/all of them.
All 3 of these action types interrupt other actions if the circumstances are right for them, and all 3 can interrupt each other if the game calls for it.
Also, the rogue does not HAVE to use his AoO if he wants to wait for the condition.Yeah, this.
Honestly I don't know that I've ever seen this come up.
I have characters who have used readied actions in the same round as AoOs. Usually it's a character with reach who readies an action to "attack the first enemy who comes within reach". Then when an enemy charges the readied action triggers, and if they survive I get an AoO as well.
In this case we didn't have to worry about whether I could take AoOs before my readied action went off because the readied action triggered first, but I wouldn't penalise a player for doing it in the opposite order.
Remember that a readied action is that character's turn. They're not gaining extra actions out of this, they're just using their actions in a smarter - but slightly riskier - manner. Between dropping in initiative and the potential to miss an entire turn taking readied actions is already a dubious prospect to most, don't punish them for it if it works out in their favour.
I mean for the sake of keeping stealth, or positioning of PC or NPC.
Here's the thing, you can take the readied action (within reason) whenever you want. The AoO happens on a specific timer (debatably, you could be able to take it in any square that would properly provoke, not just the first, where applicable). You can choose to jump in with the Readied action however you want, even if it means going before or after the AoO. The only thing that could maybe occlude this is how you word the readied action, but that's a stupid thing to do when you can just say "I ready to attack when they player wants me to attack." or try to rules lawyer some super complex scenario, and now you're being punished for not being clear enough with your wording.
Even in the case of the OP's question, you can ready for "when the enemy declares or takes a provoking action" and as soon as they declare the action, not begin the action, they haven't provoked yet but you can execute your readied action. If you don't execute the readied immediately, by your own choice, the opponent takes the action and provokes for your only window of opportunity for the AoO, and since you've chosen to let the AoO go through first, you settle that and then while they are still taking the action but after the AoO resolves, you can execute your withheld readied action.
Also, interrupting actions can still interrupt interrupting actions: you can interrupt your own AoO to settle the readied action and then finish the AoO (you could even make the readied action be "when I take my AoO, because being anal on readied attack wording beyond the intent of the action is dumb).
Do you have a rules citation for that?
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunityOnce an AoO is provoked, you resolve it immediately. You don't get to use Immediate Actions or Readied Actions to interrupt an AoO.
A Readied Action can be interrupted by an Immediate Action.
That rule does not tell us how AoOs and readied actions interact with each other. It certainly does not give us a priority of immediate vs readied actions. And if your argument is that the word immediately in AoO rules tell us that AoOs occur befor immediate actions... I don't think you have any traction there given they both are "immediate" things.
The rules on AoO's are the simple case. eg, they don't say if someone provokes, you get an AoO, and if you are flanking you get a +2, and if they are prone you get a +4, and if you have weapon specilization with your weapon you get another +1. The rules describing AoOs are describing the simple case of someone provokes and you get an AoO - they are not taking into consideration any other rules that may or may not be in play. They are just giving us the simple building block of how an AoO works absent anything else. How they interact with other rules elements they don't specifically call out is up for us to determine.
For example, they don't tell us you can't make a AoO with a ranged weapon. We have to figure that out based on the fact that you cannot threaten with a ranged weapon (short of special abilities/feats).
But let me give some scenarios, and lets see how you would say they work.
Wizard has a contingency spell conditioned on "If I'm attacked". If he provokes and takes an AoO, does the AoO occur immediately before the continfency triggers its effect?
Same scenario with the hostile juxtaposition spell. Does the AoO resolve first or the hostile juxtaposition?
I use an AoO to make a ranged attack with the snap shot feat, thus provoke an AoO as well for making a ranged attack next to a threatening character. Which AoO is resolved first? My ranged attack or the attack against me?
If I ready an action to attack someone who makes an attack, and someone makes an AoO. Which resolves first, the AoO or the readied action? Don't forget this part of the rules from the readied action "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character." If the AoO is resolved first, then how is the readied action occuring just before the action that triggers it? How is it interrupting the other character?
Readied Actions, Immediate Actions, and Free Actions are all well-defined Action Types. AoO's interrupt the normal flow of these Actions.
An Immediate Action can be used at any time, even when it's not your turn (i.e. can interrupt or be used in response to a Readied Action). But since an Immediate Action is an action type, it cannot interrupt an Attack of Opportunity, as AoO's are meant to interrupt the normal flow of actions in a round and they are resolved immediately before the rest of the round (or the player's turn) can progress. An Immediate Action would be considered as "the normal flow of actions in the round" because it's a defined Action Type.
AoO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Immediate Actions > Readied Actions > PC/NPC's Turns
So in the case of your Hostile Juxtaposition example, lets say PC1 is vs. Mook1 and Mook2, and Mook1 and Mook2 are starting adjacent to each other, but are 30ft from PC1, and Mook1 has 10ft reach and Mook2 has a Longbow with Ranged Trip and Greater Trip.
Round 1:
PC1 uses a Standard Action to cast Hostile Juxtaposition on Mook2.
PC1 uses a Swift Action to cast Quickened Magic Missile at Mook1.
PC1 decides to not take a Move Action and his turn ends.
Mook1 uses a Move Action to move 20ft closer, and is now within 10ft of PC1 and attacks, and he misses.
Mook2 makes a Full Attack with his Longbow, scoring 1 hit and 2 misses.
Round 2:
PC1 uses a Swift Action to cast Quickened Burning Hands at Mook1.
PC1 uses a Standard Action to perform a Scorching Ray. PC1 provokes 2 Attacks of Opportunity from Mook1, one AoO for Casting a Spell and another AoO for Making a Ranged Attack while threatened.
Mook1 resolves both of his AoO's immediately.
PC1 decides to not take a Move Action and his turn ends.
Mook1 makes a full attack, scoring 1 hit and 2 misses.
Mook2 uses Ranged Trip as a Full Round Action and is successful, so since this would cause damage to PC1, PC1's conditions for performing Hostile Juxtaposition are satisfied. If PC1 doesn't use Hostile Juxtaposition, it would provoke an AoO from Mook1 due to falling Prone within his threatened area, and Mook1 would resolve this AoO immediately.
Except!
PC1 uses an Immediate Action to switch places with Mook2 while the arrow is mid-flight, consuming the Hostile Juxtaposition. The arrow he fired to perform the Ranged Trip hits himself! And no AoO was provoked, so the Immediate Action occurs first.
Round 3:
PC1 cannot use a Swift Action this round because he already consumed it with his Immediate Action.
PC1 uses a Standard Action to cast Maximized Empowered Fireball on both Mook1 and Mook2, who are now 10ft away from each other after the Hostile Juxtaposition.
Mook1 and Mook2 die.
PC1, Mook1, and Mook2 are all 5ft from each other and adjacent to one another, and Mook1 and Mook2 are Flanking PC1. Mook1 and Mook2 are rogues with the Got Your Back Rogue Talent.
Round 1:
PC1 Readies an Action as a Standard Action to cast Hostile Juxtaposition on Mook2 "if Mook1 attacks him".
Mook1 attacks PC1, satisfying the condition of the Readied Action.
PC1's Initiative is now changed to go just before Mook1, and PC1 is allowed to cast the Hostile Juxtaposition spell before this attack is resolved due to the Readied Action.
PC1 casts Hostile Juxtaposition on Mook1, provoking an Attack of Opportunity for casting a spell while threatened from Mook1 and Mook2.
Mook2 wants to perform an Immediate Action to Aid Another on Mook1's attack using Got Your Back, but cannot interrupt the AoO.
Mook1 resolves his AoO immediately and causes damage.
Mook2 resolves his AoO immediately and misses.
PC1 makes a Concentration check DC 10 + the damage caused + 5 spell level.
PC1 passes the Concentration Check, and the Hostile Juxtaposition spell is delivered.
PC1's turn is now over.
Mook1 now resolves his attack that provoked the Readied Action.
Mook2 uses an Immediate Action to Aid Another on Mook1's Attack using Got Your Back.
PC1 uses his Immediate Action to switch places with Mook2 before the attack lands, consuming the Hostile Juxtaposition spell.
Mook1 hits Mook2.
Readied Actions, Immediate Actions, and Free Actions are all well-defined Action Types. AoO's interrupt the normal flow of these Actions.
An Immediate Action can be used at any time, even when it's not your turn (i.e. can interrupt or be used in response to a Readied Action). But since an Immediate Action is an action type, it cannot interrupt an Attack of Opportunity, as AoO's are meant to interrupt the normal flow of actions in a round and they are resolved immediately before the rest of the round (or the player's turn) can progress. An Immediate Action would be considered as "the normal flow of actions in the round" because it's a defined Action Type.
AoO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Immediate Actions > Readied Actions > PC/NPC's Turns
So in the case of your Hostile Juxtaposition example, lets say PC1 is vs. Mook1 and Mook2, and Mook1 and Mook2 are starting adjacent to each other, but are 30ft from PC1, and Mook1 has 10ft reach and Mook2 has a Longbow with Ranged Trip and Greater Trip.
Round 1:
PC1 uses a Standard Action to cast Hostile Juxtaposition on Mook2.
PC1 uses a Swift Action to cast Quickened Magic Missile at Mook1.
PC1 decides to not take a Move Action and his turn ends.
Mook1 uses a Move Action to move 20ft closer, and is now within 10ft of PC1 and attacks, and he misses.
Mook2 makes a Full Attack with his Longbow, scoring 1 hit and 2 misses.Round 2:
PC1 uses a Swift Action to cast Quickened Burning Hands at Mook1.
PC1 uses a Standard Action to perform a Scorching Ray. PC1 provokes 2 Attacks of Opportunity from Mook1, one AoO for Casting a Spell and another AoO for Making a Ranged Attack while threatened.
Mook1 resolves both of his AoO's immediately.
PC1 decides to not take a Move Action and his turn ends.
Mook1 makes a full attack, scoring 1 hit and 2 misses.
Mook2 uses Ranged Trip as a Full Round Action and is successful, so since this would cause damage to PC1, PC1's conditions for performing Hostile Juxtaposition are satisfied. If PC1 doesn't use Hostile Juxtaposition, it...
You only responded to one of my four scenarios. I'd like to see your response to the remaining three.
I'm not sure why you felt the need to clutter the example scenario with lots of extra data and details that have no impact on the result.
Let's trim it down to the essentials:
Round 1
PC1 uses a Standard Action to cast Hostile Juxtaposition on Mook2.
Round 2
PC1 uses a Standard Action to perform a Scorching Ray. PC1 provokes 2 Attacks of Opportunity from Mook1, one AoO for Casting a Spell and another AoO for Making a Ranged Attack while threatened.
Mook1 resolves both of his AoO's immediately.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
So the condition to trigger hostile juxtaposition is
"When attacked or the subject of a spell that deals damage to you..."
And that you must have an immediate action available to you
"...you can spend an immediate action to cause yourself and the target creature to teleport and switch places"
No where in there does it state the attack must come from a standard action attack, or an attack as a full round attack. It simple says "When attacked..." An AoO is an attack, and fulfills that condition. So the first condition has been fulfilled by this.
So the next condition, does the character have an immediate action available to them.
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
There is no restriction in there that it cannot be taken in the middle of another players action. There is no condition in there that it cannot be taken in the middle of an AoO.
I'm guessing your hang-up is in relation to the caster being able to use an immediate action in the middle of an AoO. Can you cite a rule that states this is not allowed? And citing the AoO rules doesn't qualify here, since what we are discussing is what those words in the AoO rules actually mean. You seem to believe they are a specific rule that overrides anything and everything else. I posit they are a general rule only, and specific other rules can, and do, trump them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's because Attacks of Opportunity interrupt the normal flow of actions in a round, and Immediate Actions are defined action types that you can take in a round. It's basically a Swift Action that you can take when it's not your turn.
Also, PC1 couldn't cast Hostile Juxtaposition on Mook1's attacks of opportunity because PC1 casted it on Mook2. You don't cast Hostile Juxtaposition and then just teleport anyone you want, it's a targeted spell that targets ONE creature.
Thirdly, did you see the 2nd example I posted
It's because Attacks of Opportunity interrupt the normal flow of actions in a round, and Immediate Actions are defined action types that you can take in a round. It's basically a Swift Action that you can take when it's not your turn.
Also, did you see the 2nd example I posted
Readied actions also interrupt the normal flow of actions.
Immediate actions also interrupt the normal flow of actions.
Both of these do this because they are (usually) done on someone elses turns. In this regard they are no different than an AoO.
For example, someone can make a full attack action against me, and after their first attack against me I can use an immediate action to cast a spell - right in the middle of their full attack action - then they can continue their attacks. I could likewise ready an action to cast a healing spell if I take damage - and as a result cast that healing spell in the middle of their full attack action.
I could also do an immediate or readied action to cast a spell if I am successfully bullrushed - the spell would go off after they have successfully bullrushed me, but before I am pushed over the edge of the cliff - again in the middle of another players action.
AoOs, immediate actions, and readied actions are all unlike delay which states
"You also can’t interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action)."
I saw your second example, I didn't find it revealing of any additional details regarding how you believe hostile juxtaposition works that wasn't shown in your first example.
Combining my two posts into one:
Also, PC1 couldn't cast Hostile Juxtaposition on Mook1's attacks of opportunity because PC1 casted it on Mook2. You don't cast Hostile Juxtaposition and then just teleport anyone you want, it's a targeted spell that targets ONE creature.
I'm not making that claim.
If I have previously cast hostile juxtaposition on an enemy (Mook2), then sometime in the future when I am attacked, I can use my immediate action to teleport/trade places with that enemy (Mook2). It does not matter if that attacks comes from Mook1 using a standard action, Mook1, using a full round attack (though Mook1 is free to change targets, or end his full attack after the one I teleport on is resolved), or Mook1 using an AoO - or mooks 3-999 using any form of attack against me. Technically I can even it use it against mook2 himself if he uses a ranged attack against me. (Technically even if he makes a melee attack against me, though as a GM I would not allow him to hit himself with his own melee weapon in this case).
K, I think I just misunderstood you. We're all good.
Action Types
An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated.
There are six types of actions:
Standard
Move
Full-round
Swift
Immediate
Free
^------ Actions are defined as those 6 types.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round.
And AoO's interrupt the normal flow of actions and are resolved before any other actions can progress.
Action Types
An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated.
There are six types of actions:
Standard
Move
Full-round
Swift
Immediate
Free^------ Actions are defined as those 6 types.
I don't find that particular relevant, given that some actions can also interrupt the normal flow of actions.
eg, free actions
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Stack on to that, swift actions can be taken any time a free action could be. Stack on to that, immediate actions are like swift actions, but can even be take outside of your turn. And we get the result that immediate actions can be taken during any characters turn, even in the middle of their actions - thus interrupting the normal flow of actions.
When an action is taken, you resolve it. Unless something interrupts the action, then you resolve the interrupting event first, then proceed to resolving the original action. There is no limit on how many things can interrupt one another until you've built a stack of things that need to be resolved. Then you resolve them from the top of the stack to the bottom till everything is resolved. AoOs are just one more of the types of pieces you can stack. They do not place an upper bound on the stack.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round.And AoO's interrupt the normal flow of actions and are resolved before any other actions can progress.
As I've stated before, this is very similar to the language in readied actions
If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes.
Still waiting for your response to my other 3 scenarios.
(Upthread there is some debate that a AoO is actually a free action - I'm not particularly sold on either view of that being correct at this point though).
I don't find that particular relevant
Well, that's the rule as written. AoO's interrupt the flow of actions and are resolved immediately. Actions are defined as 6 types: Standard, Move, Swift, Immediate, Free, and Full Round. Therefore AoO's interrupt them and are resolved first before any other actions can take place.
Do Attacks of Opportunity only interrupt Full Round, Standard, and Move actions at your table? Or do they interrupt none of these actions?
Wizard has a contingency spell conditioned on "If I'm attacked". If he provokes and takes an AoO, does the AoO occur immediately before the continfency triggers its effect?
No, I'd say an Attack of Opportunity against the Wizard would satisfy the Contingency of "if I'm attacked, then cast Dimension Door" and the DDoor would occur before the AoO can land.
I use an AoO to make a ranged attack with the snap shot feat, thus provoke an AoO as well for making a ranged attack next to a threatening character. Which AoO is resolved first? My ranged attack or the attack against me?
No, you wouldn't provoke an AoO. Snap Shot literally says: "You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity."
If I ready an action to attack someone who makes an attack, and someone makes an AoO. Which resolves first, the AoO or the readied action? Don't forget this part of the rules from the readied action "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character." If the AoO is resolved first, then how is the readied action occuring just before the action that triggers it? How is it interrupting the other character?
In this case, you're Readying an Action to Attack Enemy1 if he makes an attack. PC2 provokes an AoO from Enemy1, so your Readied Action condition gets triggered before the AoO can be resolved.
I think this is one of the only examples where a Readied Action would indeed trump an AoO in order precedence, and it's because of the condition that the PC set to specifically counter an Attack from Enemy1. AoO's are indeed attacks after all.
(Upthread there is some debate that a AoO is actually a free action - I'm not particularly sold on either view of that being correct at this point though).
Attacks of Opportunity are not defined as one of the 6 action types, and are simply considered "free attacks". They're not considered Free Actions.
I don't find that particular relevant
Well, that's the rule as written. AoO's interrupt the flow of actions and are resolved immediately. Actions are defined as 6 types: Standard, Move, Swift, Immediate, Free, and Full Round. Therefore AoO's interrupt them and are resolved first before any other actions can take place.
Do Attacks of Opportunity only interrupt Full Round, Standard, and Move actions at your table? Or do they interrupt none of these actions?
I don't find it relevant because it has nothing to do with how AoOs work.
No, you wouldn't provoke an AoO. Snap Shot literally says: "You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity."
You are right on that. I should have re-read the feat instead of going by memory. Really I was just looking for an alternate scenario of "use my aoo to do something that provokes an aoo, like disarm or trip without the approprate improved feat"
In this case, you're Readying an Action to Attack Enemy1 if he makes an attack. PC2 provokes an AoO from Enemy1, so your Readied Action condition gets triggered before the AoO can be resolved.
Oh good, we are in agreement then that "AoO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Immediate Actions > Readied Actions > PC/NPC's Turns" is a false premise.
The correct premise is "AoO == readied action == immediate action > PC turns." The equality between them is merely dependent on when the conditions are triggered.
By the way, here is an example of a immediate action that definetely can be applied before an AoO is resolved. Windy Escape. (With some specific limitations about AoO's you can't use it to avoid). But that isn't a specific feature of this spell. Its a feature of immediate actions. Some immediate action spells simply wouldn't matter against an AoO. Feather Fall? There are quite a few other immediate action spells that could be used to interrupt an AoO to good effect though. Some of them specifically call out you use them when you are attacked, others don't, but certainly imply that is their intended usage.
Here is list of many of those spells:
Emergency Force Sphere, Ether Step, Stone Shield, Martyr’s Bargain (if the AoO was a held touch spell), Mental Barrier, Guardian Armor, Wooden Wing Shield, Reflexive Barrier, Die for Your Master, Bleed for Your Master, Litany of Dependability, Paladin’s Sacrifice, Wave Shield, Foe to Friend, Duelist’s Parry, Defensive Grace (this is an immediate action trigger at a later time one the spell is active, like hostile juxtaposition), Visualization of The Body (another trigger once the spell is active).
There are also the swashbuckler Dodging Panache, and Opportune Parry and Riposte deeds. There are probably other classes with immediate actions that could be used to good effect against an AoO.
Given the large number of immediate action spells and abilities, its seems to me perfectly clear the the PDT believes immediate actions can interrupt AoO's without any issue at all. It would be a pretty glaring oversight on their part if they don't believe that, yet failed to call it out in every single case that this is an exception.
Do Attacks of Opportunity only interrupt Full Round, Standard, and Move actions at your table? Or do they interrupt none of these actions?
That's a silly question. At my table actions that state "this provokes an AoO" are interruptable with AoOs. I don't believe there are any swift, immediate, or free actions that do. But there may be one or two exceptions I'm not remembering at the moment.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The correct premise is "AoO == readied action == immediate action > PC turns." The equality between them is merely dependent on when the conditions are triggered.
No.
AoO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Immediate Actions > Readied Actions > PC/NPC's Turns
In every other situation ---^ this is the order precedence.
You're just coming up with spells that break these general rules with their specific rules, and then trying to say that it works that way in all situations because xxxx spell and yyyy spell act like this. Or coming up with the 1 single extremely specific example of when a Readied Action could counter an AoO, and then saying therefore all Readied Actions are equal to an AoO in order precedence? That's hogwash.
Specific Rules > General Rules, but just because certain spells break the General Rules, that doesn't mean that the General Rules get tossed out of the window for all other circumstances.
Because in 99% of all the AoO's, Readied Actions, and Immediate Actions that get resolved in all of Pathfinder, these specific spells aren't in play.
So my Barbarian is standing next to a Wizard.
I ready an action to attack the Wizard if he casts a spell.
The Wizard casts Feather Fall on one of his allies.
According to your rules Ryze this would mean the spell goes off without a hitch and the Barbarian's attack doesn't interrupt the spell ...
So my Barbarian is standing next to a Wizard.
I ready an action to attack the Wizard if he casts a spell.
The Wizard casts Feather Fall on one of his allies.
According to your rules Ryze this would mean the spell goes off without a hitch and the Barbarian's attack doesn't interrupt the spell ...
If you ready an action to counter a spell from Wizard1, and Wizard1 casts an Immediate Action spell, your Readied Action condition is satisfied, and your attack will go off, and the Wizard will be forced to make a Concentration Check of 10 + dmg caused + 1 spell level.
This is a good example of when a PC's Readied Action condition can defeat an Immediate Action in order precedence, and it's because you specifically worded your Readied Action condition to do so.
So let me ask both of you this:
I'm a Barbarian, and I ready an action to attack the Wizard if he picks his nose as a free action.
The wizard uses a free action to pick his nose.
My condition to attack the Wizard has been satisfied, and my order initiative is changed to go directly before the wizard, and I make my attack.
Can the wizard use Stone Shield as an Immediate Action to interrupt the attack?
You're just coming up with spells that break these general rules with their specific rules, and then trying to say that it works that way in all situations because xxxx spell and yyyy spell act like this. Or coming up with the 1 single extremely specific example of when a Readied Action could counter an AoO, and then saying therefore all Readied Actions are equal to an AoO in order precedence? That's hogwash.Specific Rules > General Rules, but just because certain spells break the General Rules, that doesn't mean that the General Rules get tossed out of the window for all other circumstances.
That list of immediate action spells though isn't really a list of specific spells. Almost ALL of the immediate action spells that can be cast are in response to an "attack". So the only cherry picking being done is finding spells that can be cast as an immediate action - which is required to discuss immediate actions and AoOs. I'll dive deeper into windy escape specifically here in a moment.
Because in 99% of all the AoO's, Readied Actions, and Immediate Actions that get resolved in all of Pathfinder, these specific spells aren't in play.
In 99% of cases, readied actions and AoOs don't occur at the same time. Neither do readied actions or immediate actions. Nor AoOs and immediate actions. None of that dictates how they work together when they are in play at the same time.
Can the wizard use Stone Shield as an Immediate Action to interrupt the attack?
Yes.
Okay, first a deeper dive into your comment here
Or coming up with the 1 single extremely specific example of when a Readied Action could counter an AoO, and then saying therefore all Readied Actions are equal to an AoO in order precedence
If the general rule is that you cannot take any actions in the middle of an AoO, then we need a specific exception called out to allow it. The rules for readied actions make no specific allowance for it. Your agreement that a readied action could be triggered off an AoO is out of alignment with your claim on AoOs not allowing any actions to be taken until the AoO is resolved. Note a readied action is still a standard, move, swift, or free action - whatever type you declared you were going to do.
Now lets dig deeper into windy escape. Here is the full text of the spell for reference
You respond to an attack by briefly becoming vaporous and insubstantial, allowing the attack to pass harmlessly through you.You gain DR 10/magic against this attack and are immune to any poison, sneak attacks, or critical hit effect from that attack.
You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used.
Now I'll pick it apart
You respond to an attack...
No distinction is made between a normal attack and an AoO attack.
And then the last paragraph
You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used.
If you already cannot use an immediate action to interrupt an AoO, why is this being called out? No need to repeat rules that are already in place.
Okay, so it could be reminder text, but shouldn't they have just said "As usual, you cannot use an immediate action to interrupt an AoO".
Okay, maybe they are modifying the base rule. Then shouldn't it read, "This spell can be cast to interrupt an AoO so long as the AoO was not triggered from you <using a magical ability>".
But they didn't do that either. So I see two options at this point. Either the writer had no idea how AoOs work, and wrote the spell as they did (it wouldn't be the first time something like this got butchered), and the editors missed it. OR, the base rule is you can use an immediate action to interrupt an AoO, but this specific spell has some special limitations.
Finally, you state
...but just because certain spells break the General Rules, that doesn't mean that the General Rules get tossed out of the window for all other circumstances
You seem to recognize here that AoOs are a general rule. This is true. And you cannot interrupt an AoO with normal actions (standard, move, free). You originally tried to extend it to readied actions, but have noted correctly that a readied action keyed off an attack would work fine. You have also tried to extend that to immediate actions as well without precedent for doing so, while there are numerous spells and abilities that fly counter to that. A couple of spells we might suggest are specific exceptions, but that list of immediate action spells that are in response to an "attack" is very long compared to the list of immediate action spells that do not respond to an "attack". If there is an exception to be made that you cannot use actions during an AoO, the exception is that immediate actions can be used during an AoO - which I state is factually correct on both counts. You cannot use a standard or move (unless it was readied) to interrupt an AoO. But can always use an immediate to do so.
How about this scenario:
The Ranger readies an action to shoot the Evil Wizard if he casts a spell.
The Evil Wizard - who is standing next to the Fighter - casts Scorching Ray at the Sorcerer, thus provoking an AoO from the Fighter.
The Sorcerer casts Stone Shield as an Immediate Action to avoid the Scorching Ray.
So we now have one standard action - the Scorching Ray - which satisfies the requirements for a Readied Action from the Ranger, an AoO from the Fighter and an Immediate Action from the Sorcerer. What is the order of the 3 interrupting actions?
According to Ryze it should go Fighter (AoO), Sorcerer (Immediate), Ranger (Readied).
I don't know exactly what order they should go in, but I think the Readied Action should trigger first. Here's why ...
Let's say all 3 interrupting actions give some kind of status effect that lasts for 1 round ... The Ranger is using Erastil's Distracting Shot, the Fighter is using Dazing Assault and the Sorcerer is using ... actually Stone Shield works for this - the Stone Shield lasts for 1 round.
So the Stone Shield effect (Immediate Action) will last until the beginning of the Evil Wizard's next turn.
If the Fighter hits the Evil Wizard (with the AoO) and the Evil Wizard fails his Fort Save then the Dazing effect will last until the beginning of the Evil Wizard's next turn.
But if the Distracting Shot (Readied Action) hits the Wizard then the effect will past until the beginning of the Ranger's mext turn. Since the Ranger readied an action she will change her Initiative order and now go before the Evil Wizard. On the Ranger's following turn the Daze and Stone Shield would still be in effect, but the Distracting Shot would not be. Since they all have a duration of 1 round this means the Distracting Shot (the Readied Action) started before the other two actions.