paizo.com Recent Posts in Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?paizo.com Recent Posts in Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?2021-09-09T07:04:01Z2021-09-09T07:04:01ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?bbangerterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#932021-09-08T19:07:30Z2021-09-08T19:07:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
I would argue that an Immediate Action is simply a "Better Swift Action", but action-wise, they are in fact the exact same. If you use your Immediate Action before your turn, your Swift Action isn't available on your next turn. I think this quote below could include the {ooc text that I added} and it would make much more sense.
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</blockquote><p>Being like a swift action in some regards does not make it a swift action though. A swift action is like a free action, and can be taken any time a free action can. That does not mean a GM can (within the written rules) say that you have already taken to many free actions this round so you cannot take a swift action.
<p>Them having some similarities does not mean they are the same. Them sharing a 'slot of things you can do' does not make them the same. You can move as a move action. You can also move as a standard action. That does not make the move and standard actions equivalent.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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I would argue that the reason IA's are notably absent from this line in the rules is because they're covered later, and are considered equivalent to Swift Actions.
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</blockquote><p>You cannot make a RAW argument for that though. Because the word immediate does not appear in that list of 5 actions that are part of a normal turn.
<p>For the RAI argument there are several issues you need to resolve to make a convincing RAI argument.</p>
<p>1) You have to present evidence that after writing there are six action types, the next paragraph, which talks about normal actions, listed only 5 of them and somehow forget to even so much as mention the immediate action. That is, the omission isn't an accident or oversight. If an immediate action was supposed to be part of a normal round, it should have been mentioned then and there.</p>
<p>2) Repeating myself from upthread, here is a list of immediate action spells that can be made in response to an attack. Either to cast the spell, or trigger an immediate action at a future time after the spell was cast:
<br />
Windy Escape, Emergency Force Sphere, Ether Step, Stone Shield, Martyr’s Bargain (if the AoO was a held touch spell), Mental Barrier, Guardian Armor, Wooden Wing Shield, Reflexive Barrier, Die for Your Master, Bleed for Your Master, Litany of Dependability, Paladin’s Sacrifice, Wave Shield, Foe to Friend, Duelist’s Parry, Defensive Grace (this is an immediate action trigger at a later time one the spell is active, like hostile juxtaposition), Visualization of The Body (another trigger once the spell is active).</p>
<p>And some more spells that I missed the first time through:
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Foe to Friend, Stay the Hand, Timely Inspiration, Deivon's Parry, Ether Step</p>
<p>And then to add to that list some spells that could be cast after making an attack, but are not exclusive to an attack:
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Borrow Fortune, Gallant Inspiration</p>
<p>Or when you are about to take damage:
<br />
Hero's Defiance</p>
<p><a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/tools/spells-db/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">There are 40 immediate action spells in the game</a>. Sorting by casting time you will initially count 53, but 13 of them are psychic spells that are repeats of lower level versions.</p>
<p>So you have to show in the rules that when all of these spells say "When being attack" that the rules mean being attacked by an attack that is not an AoO. You originally tried to claim that there were a few spells that were exceptions. But that list is more than half the immeidate action spells in the game. Those aren't exceptions. None of them are called out as exceptions. The rules is simply "When an attack is made..." with no limitations. A few of the spells have specific qualifiers on the target of the attack, but not why the attack is being made.</p>
<p>Note that simply quoting the AoO rules again is begging the question. You need to find other rules to support your view (like I have done with this list of immediate action spells).</p>
<p>3) The windy escape spell specifically. I will again just repeat myself from upthread.
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<div class="messageboard-quotee">Windy Escape wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
You cannot use windy escape against an attack of opportunity you provoked by casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using any other magical ability that provokes an attack of opportunity when used.
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</blockquote><p>If you already cannot use an immediate action to interrupt an AoO, why is this being called out? No need to repeat rules that are already in place.
<p>Okay, so it could be reminder text, but shouldn't they have just said "As usual, you cannot use an immediate action to interrupt an AoO".</p>
<p>Okay, maybe they are modifying the base rule. Then shouldn't it read, "This spell can be cast to interrupt an AoO so long as the AoO was not triggered from you <using a magical ability>".</p>
<p>But they didn't do that either. So I see two options at this point. Either the writer had no idea how AoOs work, and wrote the spell as they did (it wouldn't be the first time something like this got butchered), and the editors missed it. OR, the base rule is you can use an immediate action to interrupt an AoO, but this specific spell has some special limitations.</p>
<p>So you need to provide an explanation for the wording of the windy escape spell in a way that supports your RAI argument.</p>
<p>4) And again, me repeating myself from upthread:
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There are also the swashbuckler Dodging Panache, and Opportune Parry and Riposte deeds. There are probably other classes with immediate actions that could be used to good effect against an AoO.</p>
<p>So I have multiple rules strongly implying the RAI (in addition to the RAW) is on my side as well. What rules can you quote that imply differently?</p>
<p>When we have multiple rules we are looking at, and an interpetation of one of those rules results in logical inconsistancies with the others, or gaping holes that were not explained by the rules, and the other interpetation does not have those holes, which one do you think is the correct interpetation?</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:I would argue that an Immediate Action is simply a "Better Swift Action", but action-wise, they are in fact the exact same. If you use your Immediate Action before your turn, your Swift Action isn't available on your next turn. I think this quote below could include the {ooc text that I added} and it would make much more sense.
Being like a swift action in some regards does not make it a swift action though. A swift action is like a free action, and can be taken any time a...bbangerter2021-09-08T19:07:30ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Pizza Lordhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#922021-09-08T05:32:06Z2021-09-08T05:32:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">HappyGoblin wrote:</div><blockquote>Alice's player can't claim a surprise round just because Bob wasn't aware of her until she hit him. He's aware now, at the Initiative roll, and that means no surprise round occurs. </blockquote><p>Technically her attack on Bob would be her surprise round action (partial action). But that's getting technical. Since, surprise pretty much indicates that someone's been caught unawares or are unaware, then they can't take AoO's.
</p>
After that, yes, Bob is aware and initiative is rolled. If Alice goes faster, than Bob is still flat-footed, but considered 'aware' for certain instances that matter (such as being able to take AoOs if Alice provokes one, and if Bob has Combat Reflexes, of course).</p>HappyGoblin wrote:Alice's player can't claim a surprise round just because Bob wasn't aware of her until she hit him. He's aware now, at the Initiative roll, and that means no surprise round occurs.
Technically her attack on Bob would be her surprise round action (partial action). But that's getting technical. Since, surprise pretty much indicates that someone's been caught unawares or are unaware, then they can't take AoO's.
After that, yes, Bob is aware and initiative is rolled. If Alice...Pizza Lord2021-09-08T05:32:06ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?HappyGoblinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#912021-09-08T04:49:21Z2021-09-08T04:49:21Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
...</p>
<p>But if it's a "pre-combat stealth up to the mook" scenario, then things change a bit, because he cannot Ready an Action out of combat. But you would start a Surprise Round instead. </p>
<p>In a pre-combat stealth scenario, he would be able to say "DM, if the Frost Giant moves, I want to attack him" and then if/when the Frost Giant moves, an Attack of Opportunity is provoked and is immediately resolved, a Surprise Round would begin the exact second that the AoO takes place, so everyone would then roll Initiative, and every PC/mook who is aware of enemies gets to act during this Surprise Round and the Rogue would ostensibly be able to act as well. ... </blockquote><p>I have never understood attacks of opportunity to be something a character can make outside of combat. This seems to be against RAW and RAI, and seems like a way to try to double up on the number of attacks an ambusher can make in a surprise round.
<p>"At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. ... A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat."</p>
<p>Unless we're saying that characters outside of combat can make AOOs, then they briefly lose that ability at the start of combat only to gain it again on their first turns; it seems like the default state here is flat-footed and acting in combat removes that default state.</p>
<p>Even if AOOs outside of combat are allowed, no surprise round would occur. If Alice AOOs Bob then Bob becomes aware of Alice in that very moment, combat begins, and it begins with both characters aware of one another. Alice's player can't claim a surprise round just because Bob wasn't aware of her until she hit him. He's aware now, at the Initiative roll, and that means no surprise round occurs.</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:...But if it's a "pre-combat stealth up to the mook" scenario, then things change a bit, because he cannot Ready an Action out of combat. But you would start a Surprise Round instead.
In a pre-combat stealth scenario, he would be able to say "DM, if the Frost Giant moves, I want to attack him" and then if/when the Frost Giant moves, an Attack of Opportunity is provoked and is immediately resolved, a Surprise Round would begin the exact second that the AoO takes place, so...HappyGoblin2021-09-08T04:49:21ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#902021-09-07T14:06:16Z2021-09-07T13:41:31Z<p>As far as Readied Actions, a Readied Action would go before any triggering event, including an AoO if that's what triggered the event, and that's because the Readied Action rules specifically call this out as:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Readied Action wrote:</div><blockquote>The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.</blockquote><p>.
<p>And this would include going before an AoO if that was the trigger.</p>
<p>But if you provoked an AoO once you perform w/e it is you're doing during that Readied Action, such as firing a ranged weapon while threatened, an AoO would interrupt that Readied Action and become resolved immediately. Just like your wolf example, AoO's interrupt everything and become resolved immediately, including other AoO's, and including Readied Actions that provoke an AoO.</p>
<p>And I would argue that since an Immediate Action is a "normal flow of actions" due to its equivalency to a swift action, that an IA cannot be performed once an AoO has been provoked. All normal actions in the round are essentially suspended once an AoO has been provoked, and it is immediately resolved before anything else can continue. I personally think that arguing that an IA can interrupt an AoO in progress would be like arguing that a Swift Action could interrupt an AoO in progress.</p>As far as Readied Actions, a Readied Action would go before any triggering event, including an AoO if that's what triggered the event, and that's because the Readied Action rules specifically call this out as:
Readied Action wrote:The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied
...Ryze Kuja2021-09-07T13:41:31ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#892021-09-07T14:03:18Z2021-09-07T13:41:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">bbangerter wrote:</div><blockquote>Notably absent from that list of what you can do in a normal round is the immediate action - thus immediate actions do not fall within the normal flow of actions - they are not listed as a normal action. Also note, it does not state that if you are doing one of those actions, it has to be in the normal flow of actions. Only that during the normal round you can do those actions. </blockquote><p>I would argue that the reason IA's are notably absent from this line in the rules is because they're covered later, and are considered equivalent to Swift Actions.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Immediate Action wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>Immediate Action</p>
<p>An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn.</p>
<p>Immediate Actions</p>
<p>Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.</p>
<p><b>Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn.</b> You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (<b>effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn</b>). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.</blockquote><p>I would argue that an Immediate Action is simply a "Better Swift Action", but action-wise, they are in fact the exact same. If you use your Immediate Action before your turn, your Swift Action isn't available on your next turn. I think this quote below could include the {ooc text that I added} and it would make much more sense.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action <span class=messageboard-ooc> or one immediate action</span> and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action. </blockquote><p>That's why I consider IA's to be part of the normal flow of actions in a round. It is called out as <b>"same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action"</b> as well as <b>"equivalent to using your swift action"</b> in the Immediate Action rule section.
<p>I would also agree with your wolf example. Strangely enough, the AoO from the Wolf would be > the original AoO that provoked it, and the wolf's AoO would be resolved immediately and interrupt the first AoO.</p>bbangerter wrote:Notably absent from that list of what you can do in a normal round is the immediate action - thus immediate actions do not fall within the normal flow of actions - they are not listed as a normal action. Also note, it does not state that if you are doing one of those actions, it has to be in the normal flow of actions. Only that during the normal round you can do those actions.
I would argue that the reason IA's are notably absent from this line in the rules is because...Ryze Kuja2021-09-07T13:41:04ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?bbangerterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#882021-09-07T03:48:49Z2021-09-07T03:46:58Z<p>Addendum, in case the above wasn't clear.</p>
<p>The normal flow of actions is one character takes their turn at a time, from highest to lowest init. Anything that breaks or interrupts that flow is outside the normal flow of actions (or outside of the normal round).</p>Addendum, in case the above wasn't clear.
The normal flow of actions is one character takes their turn at a time, from highest to lowest init. Anything that breaks or interrupts that flow is outside the normal flow of actions (or outside of the normal round).bbangerter2021-09-07T03:46:58ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?bbangerterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#872021-09-07T02:39:44Z2021-09-07T02:39:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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<details of how you believe the AoO rules work></p>
<p>Is that a fair assessment?
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</blockquote><p>We are in agreement that a readied action with the correct trigger can go before either an AoO or a immediate action.
<p>We are likewise in agreement that an AoO could interrupt either a readied action or an immediate (say an immediate action to move with a special ability).</p>
<p>I'm not clear on whether you believe an immediate action can go before an AoO (assuming an immediate action that is in response to an attack).</p>
<p>We are not in agreement that the six actions listed are always part of the normal flow of actions - which I think is the real crux of the disagreement. So let me address that.</p>
<p>The rules don't directly tell us what the normal flow of actions is, so we have to infer it. I don't believe you have correctly defined what the normal flow of actions is.</p>
<p>You have quoted the six action types, what you left off was the sentance following that.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Action Types wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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There are six types of actions:</p>
<p>Standard
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Move
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Full-round
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Swift
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Immediate
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Free
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<b>In a normal round</b>, you can perform a <b>standard</b> action and a <b>move</b> action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one <b>swift</b> action and one or more <b>free actions</b>. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
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</blockquote><p>Notably absent from that list of what you can do in a normal round is the immediate action - thus immediate actions do not fall within the normal flow of actions - they are not listed as a normal action. Also note, it does not state that if you are doing one of those actions, it has to be in the normal flow of actions. Only that during the normal round you can do those actions.
<p>Further, under how combat works we have these rules
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<div class="messageboard-quotee">How Combat Works wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:</p>
<p>1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
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2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, <b>proceed with normal rounds</b>. See the surprise section for more information.
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3. After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to begin the first normal round of combat.
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4. <b>Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest)</b>.
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5. When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.
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</blockquote><p>Here is the definition of the normal flow of actions. Note step 2 points proceeding to normal rounds. Steps 4 and 5 explain that in a normal roundthe character with the highest initiative takes their actions, then the next, and the next, down to the character with the lowest initiative.
<p>Furthermore, right below that section is a definition of the combat round, which contains this paragraph
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<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Combat Round wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Each round’s activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. <b>(For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)</b>
<br />
</blockquote><p>Note in particular the bolded section. AoOs and Special Initiative Action (delay and ready) are noted as exceptions to the normal way a round works. Thus AoOs and ready (and delay) do not fall within the normal flow of actions.
<p>But let me also show that other action types do not have to follow the normal flow of actions either (they usually do, but just because it is one of those action types does not mean that it does).</p>
<p>Here is the scenario:
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I'm fighting a wolf.
<br />
It takes a move action to move out of my threatened square.
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I take an AoO and make a trip attempt (without the improved trip feat).
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The wolf takes an AoO, and on a successful hit also get a free trip attack.
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What is the order of resolution between these two AoOs and the free trip attack?</p>
<p>I declare that the resolution is the wolve's AoO, followed the the wolve's free trip attack (so in this case the free attack is not part of the normal flow of actions), followed by my AoO.</p>
<p>Regarding immediate actions, I've mentioned this before, but it is an important detail. Most immediate action spells are made in resonse to an attack. The rules do not distinguish between a normal attack or a AoO attack. Without any distinction, then we have to read it as any attack qualifies.</p>
<p>So at this point, I continue to maintain that AoO, Readied, and Immediate actions have no heirarchy of priority. The only thing that matters is what order the triggering conditions happen in.</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:Is that a fair assessment?
We are in agreement that a readied action with the correct trigger can go before either an AoO or a immediate action. We are likewise in agreement that an AoO could interrupt either a readied action or an immediate (say an immediate action to move with a special ability).
I'm not clear on whether you believe an immediate action can go before an AoO (assuming an immediate action that is in response to an attack).
We are not in agreement that the...bbangerter2021-09-07T02:39:44ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#862021-09-06T18:23:41Z2021-09-06T18:22:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Derklord wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote>I don't care what you think about anything, regardless of the topic.</blockquote><p>I didn't post what <i>I think</i> about something, I've shown what the rules say.
<p>That you don't care about my post where I give the rule quote <i>that you asked for</i> shows that you have absolutely no interest in how the rules actually are. Which indicates that you're continuing to argue just so you don't have to admit to having been wrong.</p>
<p>But really, I didn't make my post for your benefit. I know that you lack the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_honesty" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">intellectual honesty</a> to actually listen to arguments, and that you often throw around insults if someone dares to dissent to what you say. I <i>knew</i> you wouldn't have the integrity to admit to having been wrong even when confronted with evidence. I made my post to show everyone here that your knowledge of the rules isn't anywhere as good as your cocky attitude would suggest. </blockquote><p>I don't care what you say about anything. Just trying to save you some time in case you were under the delusion that I did care.Derklord wrote:Ryze Kuja wrote:I don't care what you think about anything, regardless of the topic.
I didn't post what I think about something, I've shown what the rules say. That you don't care about my post where I give the rule quote that you asked for shows that you have absolutely no interest in how the rules actually are. Which indicates that you're continuing to argue just so you don't have to admit to having been wrong.
But really, I didn't make my post for your benefit. I know that...Ryze Kuja2021-09-06T18:22:19ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Derklordhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#852021-09-05T11:28:01Z2021-09-05T11:28:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote>I don't care what you think about anything, regardless of the topic.</blockquote><p>I didn't post what <i>I think</i> about something, I've shown what the rules say.
<p>That you don't care about my post where I give the rule quote <i>that you asked for</i> shows that you have absolutely no interest in how the rules actually are. Which indicates that you're continuing to argue just so you don't have to admit to having been wrong.</p>
<p>But really, I didn't make my post for your benefit. I know that you lack the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_honesty" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">intellectual honesty</a> to actually listen to arguments, and that you often throw around insults if someone dares to dissent to what you say. I <i>knew</i> you wouldn't have the integrity to admit to having been wrong even when confronted with evidence. I made my post to show everyone here that your knowledge of the rules isn't anywhere as good as your cocky attitude would suggest.</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:I don't care what you think about anything, regardless of the topic.
I didn't post what I think about something, I've shown what the rules say. That you don't care about my post where I give the rule quote that you asked for shows that you have absolutely no interest in how the rules actually are. Which indicates that you're continuing to argue just so you don't have to admit to having been wrong.
But really, I didn't make my post for your benefit. I know that you lack the...Derklord2021-09-05T11:28:01ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#842021-09-04T18:42:09Z2021-09-04T18:41:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Derklord wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote>There is nothing in the rules that says what you're saying is how it operates. You do not provoke a first AoO for starting to cast the spell, and then provoke a 2nd AoO later at the end of the cast if you make your Concentration Check. I'm going to need you to proffer a single rule that explicitly says that's how it works, because frankly I think you're just making things up.</blockquote><ul>"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect." <span class=tiny>CRB pg. 213</span>
<br />
Until you've successfully finished casting the spell, the spell doesn't come into effect. Until the spell comes into effect, you don't declare a target. Without a target, there can be no attack roll. Without an attack roll, there can be no AoO for making an attack. Therefore, you don't provoke for making a ranged attack until you've successfully finished casting.</ul></p>
<p>So yeah, how bbangert <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#67" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">described it</a> was indeed correct. You really <i>do</i> "provoke a first AoO for starting to cast the spell, and then provoke a 2nd AoO later at the end of the cast if you make your Concentration Check". </blockquote><p>I don't care what you think about anything, regardless of the topic.Derklord wrote:Ryze Kuja wrote:There is nothing in the rules that says what you're saying is how it operates. You do not provoke a first AoO for starting to cast the spell, and then provoke a 2nd AoO later at the end of the cast if you make your Concentration Check. I'm going to need you to proffer a single rule that explicitly says that's how it works, because frankly I think you're just making things up.
"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version,...Ryze Kuja2021-09-04T18:41:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#832021-09-04T18:32:57Z2021-09-04T18:27:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">bbangerter wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>Feel free to explain why a readied action is just part of the normal flow of actions despite this. Or how this interrupting anyone else's action is different than an AoO interrupting actions. Or why, despite being a normal flow of actions (as you claim) it still gets special priveledge that it can interrupt an AoO if the trigger condition is an attack (with no specific rules stating that a readied can interrupt an AoO). That is, if you stil feel this point is relevant, we can discuss it further. You did not address it upthread though.</blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">bbangerter wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Readied and immediate actions aren't normal actions. They both have specific rules (just like the AoO) that allow you to interrupt the normal flow of actions.
<br />
</blockquote><p>Despite the fantastic usability of an Immediate Action, an Immediate Action is still just a normal action, and it's listed in this section below. It essentially operates as a "Better Swift Action", and when used, it will consume your ability to use a Swift Action in your next turn. This most definitely fits within the description of "normal flow of actions in a round".
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p>Action Types</p>
<p>An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated.</p>
<p>There are six types of actions:</p>
<p>Standard
<br />
Move
<br />
Full-round
<br />
Swift
<br />
Immediate
<br />
Free</blockquote><p>A Readied Action is also a normal action, but with special conditions upon •when• it gets performed. Like Immediate Actions, it has fantastic usability, and a Readied Action's iconic feature is that it's taken later in the round, but that Readied Action will occur just before a triggering event set by the PC and then change their Initiative. But when it really comes down to it, it's still just a Standard, Move, Swift, or Free Action.
<p>I think we're all in agreement that AoO's interrupt the normal flow of actions. I think we're all also in agreement that an Immediate Action can be performed in response to (and interrupt) a Readied Action under general conditions. A Readied Action is a normal action after all, and Immediate Actions "can be used at any time", so an IA can be used in response to an enemy's Readied Action against you, and even interrupt that Readied Action while it's in progress.</p>
<p>So when an AoO gets provoked, it interrupts the normal flow of these 6 action types, the order precedence is</p>
<p>AoO > Immediate > Readied</p>
<p>But if you specifically set your Readied Action to counter an AoO or an Immediate Action, then the order precedence becomes:</p>
<p>A Specific Readied Action to Counter an AoO > AoO > A Specific Readied Action to Counter an IA > Immediate Action > Other Readied Actions</p>
<p>And it's because setting a Readied Action with a contingency of specifically countering an AoO or Immediate Action should be allowed to be performed before the triggering event, as per the Readied Action Rules. </p>
<p>Is that a fair assessment?</p>bbangerter wrote:Feel free to explain why a readied action is just part of the normal flow of actions despite this. Or how this interrupting anyone else's action is different than an AoO interrupting actions. Or why, despite being a normal flow of actions (as you claim) it still gets special priveledge that it can interrupt an AoO if the trigger condition is an attack (with no specific rules stating that a readied can interrupt an AoO). That is, if you stil feel this point is relevant, we can...Ryze Kuja2021-09-04T18:27:22ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Derklordhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#822021-09-02T20:10:07Z2021-09-02T20:01:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote>There is nothing in the rules that says what you're saying is how it operates. You do not provoke a first AoO for starting to cast the spell, and then provoke a 2nd AoO later at the end of the cast if you make your Concentration Check. I'm going to need you to proffer a single rule that explicitly says that's how it works, because frankly I think you're just making things up.</blockquote><ul>"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect." <span class=tiny>CRB pg. 213</span>
<br />
Until you've successfully finished casting the spell, the spell doesn't come into effect. Until the spell comes into effect, you don't declare a target. Without a target, there can be no attack roll. Without an attack roll, there can be no AoO for making an attack. Therefore, you don't provoke for making a ranged attack until you've successfully finished casting.</ul></p>
<p>So yeah, how bbangert <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#67" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">described it</a> was indeed correct. You really <i>do</i> "provoke a first AoO for starting to cast the spell, and then provoke a 2nd AoO later at the end of the cast if you make your Concentration Check".</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:There is nothing in the rules that says what you're saying is how it operates. You do not provoke a first AoO for starting to cast the spell, and then provoke a 2nd AoO later at the end of the cast if you make your Concentration Check. I'm going to need you to proffer a single rule that explicitly says that's how it works, because frankly I think you're just making things up.
"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth)...Derklord2021-09-02T20:01:58ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?bbangerterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#812021-09-02T19:25:25Z2021-09-02T18:59:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">bbangerter wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>We can't have an honest discussion about this until you respond to these questions:
<br />
</blockquote><p>We stopped having an honest discussion about this when you said these Actions defined in the rules aren't relevant.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">bbangerter wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Action Types</p>
<p>An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated.</p>
<p>There are six types of actions:</p>
<p>Standard
<br />
Move
<br />
Full-round
<br />
Swift
<br />
Immediate
<br />
Free</p>
<p>^——— Actions are defined as those 6 types.</blockquote>I don't find that particular relevant</blockquote><p>Because, they are. Especially since later in the same section of the rules it says: Attacks of Opportunity interrupt the normal flow of <b>actions </b><span class=messageboard-ooc><—— something clearly defined in the rules</span>
<p>Unless you're going to argue that this passage in the Combat Rules is fluff text, then it is indeed relevant. </blockquote><p>At the time I pointed out that readied actions also are allowed to interrupt the normal flow of actions, from the rules on delay
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Delay wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
You also can’t interrupt anyone else’s action (<b>as you can with a readied action</b>).
<br />
</blockquote><p>Feel free to explain why a readied action is just part of the normal flow of actions despite this. Or how this interrupting anyone else's action is different than an AoO interrupting actions. Or why, despite being a normal flow of actions (as you claim) it still gets special priveledge that it can interrupt an AoO if the trigger condition is an attack (with no specific rules stating that a readied can interrupt an AoO). That is, if you stil feel this point is relevant, we can discuss it further. You did not address it upthread though.
<p>As can immediate actions
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Immediate Actions wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
However, unlike a swift action, <b>an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn</b>.
<br />
</blockquote><p>So in terms of discussing AoOs, readied actions, and immediate actions, yes, that rule is irrelevant. Its relevant regarding normal actions. We are in agreement that an AoO interrupts the normal flow of actions. Readied and immediate actions aren't normal actions. They both have specific rules (just like the AoO) that allow you to interrupt the normal flow of actions.
<p>So humor me, if your viewpoint is correct, these should be trivial questions to give yes/no responses too. Then feel free to elaborate as much as you like if you feel it is warranted.</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:bbangerter wrote:We can't have an honest discussion about this until you respond to these questions:
We stopped having an honest discussion about this when you said these Actions defined in the rules aren't relevant. bbangerter wrote:Ryze Kuja wrote:Action Types
An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated.
There are six types of actions:
Standard
Move
Full-round...bbangerter2021-09-02T18:59:30ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Algarikhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#802021-09-02T18:54:55Z2021-09-02T18:54:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote>No, both AoO's are provoked the exact instant you begin to cast the spell. The Ranged Touch Attack is made as a part of casting that spell. It's considered two separate provoking events for the same singular action.</blockquote><p>And yet if you fail your concentration check the spell ''fizzle with no effect''(As per Concentration under the combat section), meaning that you don't even get to make a ranged attack as spell such as Schorching rays list the rays as being the effect. If there's no rays being fired, there's no attack being made, so you get AoO for something you didn't even do.
<p>Again i see your logic, but i can't agree with it. This is fine though, it's such a corner case scenario that i legit never saw happened in more than 15 years of play.</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:No, both AoO's are provoked the exact instant you begin to cast the spell. The Ranged Touch Attack is made as a part of casting that spell. It's considered two separate provoking events for the same singular action.
And yet if you fail your concentration check the spell ''fizzle with no effect''(As per Concentration under the combat section), meaning that you don't even get to make a ranged attack as spell such as Schorching rays list the rays as being the effect. If there's...Algarik2021-09-02T18:54:55ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#792021-09-02T18:32:03Z2021-09-02T18:27:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">bbangerter wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>We can't have an honest discussion about this until you respond to these questions:
<br />
</blockquote><p>We stopped having an honest discussion about this when you said these Actions defined in the rules aren't relevant.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">bbangerter wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Action Types</p>
<p>An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated.</p>
<p>There are six types of actions:</p>
<p>Standard
<br />
Move
<br />
Full-round
<br />
Swift
<br />
Immediate
<br />
Free</p>
<p>^——— Actions are defined as those 6 types.</blockquote>I don't find that particular relevant</blockquote><p>Because, they are. Especially since later in the same section of the rules it says: Attacks of Opportunity interrupt the normal flow of <b>actions </b><span class=messageboard-ooc><—— something clearly defined in the rules</span>
<p>Unless you're going to argue that this passage in the Combat Rules is fluff text, then it is indeed relevant.</p>bbangerter wrote:We can't have an honest discussion about this until you respond to these questions:
We stopped having an honest discussion about this when you said these Actions defined in the rules aren't relevant. bbangerter wrote:Ryze Kuja wrote:Action Types
An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated.
There are six types of actions:
Standard
Move
Full-round
Swift
Immediate...Ryze Kuja2021-09-02T18:27:44ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?bbangerterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#782021-09-02T18:12:37Z2021-09-02T18:09:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Algarik wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>That is correct, but this does not mean that the casting of the spell and the attack happens at the same time, it just means that they happen as part of the same action. The FAQ you linked earlier even mentionned the casting and the attack being two seperate event. </p>
<p>At this point though, i'm not sure either party will be able to convince the other. I can see the logic you're arguing for, but then again i don't see our interpretation as wrong either. It just happens that your interpretation seems to cause more problems than it solves. </blockquote><p>No, both AoO's are provoked the exact instant you begin to cast the spell. The Ranged Touch Attack is made as a part of casting that spell. It's considered two separate provoking events for the same singular action.
<p>Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to <b>make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell</b> and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn. </blockquote><p>We can't have an honest discussion about this until you respond to these questions:
</p>
If my spell fails/I'm unconscious/dead, do I get to make an attack roll and deal damage?
<br />
If I don't get to make an attack roll then am I really making a ranged attack?
<br />
Can the AoO generated from making a ranged touch attack interrupt the spell and force a concentration check?</p>
<p>You sort of answered this one:
<br />
If I cast a ranged attack spell, and roll a defensive concentration check, how many AoOs do I generate? (How many if I fail my concentration roll, and how many if I make my concentration roll)</p>
<p>Do I get a ranged attack AoO regardless of whether I make my defensive concentration check or not?</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:Algarik wrote:That is correct, but this does not mean that the casting of the spell and the attack happens at the same time, it just means that they happen as part of the same action. The FAQ you linked earlier even mentionned the casting and the attack being two seperate event.
At this point though, i'm not sure either party will be able to convince the other. I can see the logic you're arguing for, but then again i don't see our interpretation as wrong either. It just...bbangerter2021-09-02T18:09:18ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#772021-09-02T17:49:43Z2021-09-02T17:48:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Algarik wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>That is correct, but this does not mean that the casting of the spell and the attack happens at the same time, it just means that they happen as part of the same action. The FAQ you linked earlier even mentionned the casting and the attack being two seperate event. </p>
<p>At this point though, i'm not sure either party will be able to convince the other. I can see the logic you're arguing for, but then again i don't see our interpretation as wrong either. It just happens that your interpretation seems to cause more problems than it solves. </blockquote><p>No, both AoO's are provoked the exact instant you begin to cast the spell. The Ranged Touch Attack is made as a part of casting that spell. It's considered two separate provoking events for the same singular action.
<p>Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to <b>make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell</b> and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.</p>Algarik wrote:That is correct, but this does not mean that the casting of the spell and the attack happens at the same time, it just means that they happen as part of the same action. The FAQ you linked earlier even mentionned the casting and the attack being two seperate event.
At this point though, i'm not sure either party will be able to convince the other. I can see the logic you're arguing for, but then again i don't see our interpretation as wrong either. It just happens that your...Ryze Kuja2021-09-02T17:48:07ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Algarikhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#762021-09-02T17:41:34Z2021-09-02T17:41:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote><p> You still provoke AoO's for casting Spells that have Ranged Touch Attacks, even if you cast them defensively. That's in the Ranged Touch Spell rules.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee"> Ranged Touch Spells in Combat wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. <b>Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively.</b> Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.</blockquote></blockquote><p>That is correct, but this does not mean that the casting of the spell and the attack happens at the same time, it just means that they happen as part of the same action. The FAQ you linked earlier even mentionned the casting and the attack being two seperate event.
<p>At this point though, i'm not sure either party will be able to convince the other. I can see the logic you're arguing for, but then again i don't see our interpretation as wrong either. It just happens that your interpretation seems to cause more problems than it solves.</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:You still provoke AoO's for casting Spells that have Ranged Touch Attacks, even if you cast them defensively. That's in the Ranged Touch Spell rules.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat wrote:Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the...Algarik2021-09-02T17:41:34ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Ryze Kujahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#752021-09-02T17:21:56Z2021-09-02T17:19:42Z<p>You still provoke AoO's for casting Spells that have Ranged Touch Attacks, even if you cast them defensively. That's in the Ranged Touch Spell rules.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee"> Ranged Touch Spells in Combat wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. <b>Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively.</b> Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.</blockquote><p>You still provoke AoO's for casting Spells that have Ranged Touch Attacks, even if you cast them defensively. That's in the Ranged Touch Spell rules.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat wrote:Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast...Ryze Kuja2021-09-02T17:19:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Algarikhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#742021-09-02T16:20:52Z2021-09-02T16:20:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">bbangerter wrote:</div><blockquote>That is a little different though. For a single move action you will not provoke more than once from any given creature. But if you move past 5 creatures you generate an AoO for each of them. The full attacking archer though does generate multiple AoOs from each creature. </blockquote><p>Oh, i guess you're right, i've been playing combat reflexes wrong all this time, oh well.
<p>Although, your Archer example is a good one. It would be weird for an Archer to get all their AoO at the begening of their full attack action, potentially dropping them before they can even make enough attack to account for the number of attack of opportunity they took.</p>bbangerter wrote:That is a little different though. For a single move action you will not provoke more than once from any given creature. But if you move past 5 creatures you generate an AoO for each of them. The full attacking archer though does generate multiple AoOs from each creature.
Oh, i guess you're right, i've been playing combat reflexes wrong all this time, oh well. Although, your Archer example is a good one. It would be weird for an Archer to get all their AoO at the begening of...Algarik2021-09-02T16:20:52ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?bbangerterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#732021-09-02T15:28:52Z2021-09-02T15:28:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Algarik wrote:</div><blockquote><p> There’s also precedent for a single action provoking multiple attack of opportunity. A creature can provoke attack of opportunity multiple time within a move action if they move out of multiple threatened square. Those attack do not resolve at the same time, otherwise it would mean a creature that would fall unconcious because of one of those attack would still get attacked for move they didn’t do. </p>
<p>It’s the same for ranged touched spell. It’s the same action, but it has multiple components that provoke, you need to resolve it in order.
<br />
</blockquote><p>That is a little different though. For a single move action you will not provoke more than once from any given creature. But if you move past 5 creatures you generate an AoO for each of them. The full attacking archer though does generate multiple AoOs from each creature.Algarik wrote:There’s also precedent for a single action provoking multiple attack of opportunity. A creature can provoke attack of opportunity multiple time within a move action if they move out of multiple threatened square. Those attack do not resolve at the same time, otherwise it would mean a creature that would fall unconcious because of one of those attack would still get attacked for move they didn’t do.
It’s the same for ranged touched spell. It’s the same action, but it has...bbangerter2021-09-02T15:28:24ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?Algarikhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#722021-09-02T15:24:33Z2021-09-02T15:24:33Z<p>There’s also precedent for a single action provoking multiple attack of opportunity. A creature can provoke attack of opportunity multiple time within a move action if they move out of multiple threatened square. Those attack do not resolve at the same time, otherwise it would mean a creature that would fall unconcious because of one of those attack would still get attacked for move they didn’t do. </p>
<p>It’s the same for ranged touched spell. It’s the same action, but it has multiple components that provoke, you need to resolve it in order.</p>There’s also precedent for a single action provoking multiple attack of opportunity. A creature can provoke attack of opportunity multiple time within a move action if they move out of multiple threatened square. Those attack do not resolve at the same time, otherwise it would mean a creature that would fall unconcious because of one of those attack would still get attacked for move they didn’t do.
It’s the same for ranged touched spell. It’s the same action, but it has multiple components...Algarik2021-09-02T15:24:33ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?bbangerterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#712021-09-02T14:31:24Z2021-09-02T14:25:00Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">willuwontu wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote>And therefore, per the FAQ, you provoke two Attacks of Opportunity for Casting a Spell that has a Ranged Touch Attack, because the Ranged Touch Attack is made as a part of Casting the Spell.</blockquote><p>Are you actually arguing that casting a spell with a ranged attack roll defensively and failing, still causes you to provoke an AoO for making a ranged attack?
<p>I'm sorry, but that's a ludicrous stance to have. </blockquote><p>Actually, based on his stance, I think he would have to declare that making your defensive concentration roll means you would not provoke for casting OR making the ranged attack that comes with it... but I'll add this to the list of questions I'd like a direct response too:
</p>
If I cast a ranged attack spell, and roll a defensive concentration check, how many AoOs do I generate? (How many if I fail my concentration roll, and how many if I make my concentration roll)</p>
<p>Of course by declaring you get 2 AoOs off of casting a spell, he already breaks the rule of
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Combat Reflexes wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity)
<br />
</blockquote><p>He wants there to be two seperate triggering events for casting a ranged attack spell while simultaneously there only being one event that triggers both AoOswilluwontu wrote:Ryze Kuja wrote:And therefore, per the FAQ, you provoke two Attacks of Opportunity for Casting a Spell that has a Ranged Touch Attack, because the Ranged Touch Attack is made as a part of Casting the Spell.
Are you actually arguing that casting a spell with a ranged attack roll defensively and failing, still causes you to provoke an AoO for making a ranged attack? I'm sorry, but that's a ludicrous stance to have. Actually, based on his stance, I think he would have to...bbangerter2021-09-02T14:25:00ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?willuwontuhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#702021-09-02T13:27:15Z2021-09-02T13:27:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote>And therefore, per the FAQ, you provoke two Attacks of Opportunity for Casting a Spell that has a Ranged Touch Attack, because the Ranged Touch Attack is made as a part of Casting the Spell.</blockquote><p>Are you actually arguing that casting a spell with a ranged attack roll defensively and failing, still causes you to provoke an AoO for making a ranged attack?
<p>I'm sorry, but that's a ludicrous stance to have.</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:And therefore, per the FAQ, you provoke two Attacks of Opportunity for Casting a Spell that has a Ranged Touch Attack, because the Ranged Touch Attack is made as a part of Casting the Spell.
Are you actually arguing that casting a spell with a ranged attack roll defensively and failing, still causes you to provoke an AoO for making a ranged attack? I'm sorry, but that's a ludicrous stance to have.willuwontu2021-09-02T13:27:15ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Readied action and attack of opportunity - can I use both?bbangerterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g94&page=2?Readied-action-and-attack-of-opportunity-can#692021-09-01T22:53:37Z2021-09-01T22:35:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ryze Kuja wrote:</div><blockquote><p> There is nothing in the rules that says what you're saying is how it operates. You do not provoke a first AoO for starting to cast the spell, and then provoke a 2nd AoO later at the end of the cast if you make your Concentration Check. I'm going to need you to proffer a single rule that explicitly says that's how it works, because frankly I think you're just making things up. Otherwise, we're going to be using these rules:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ranged Touch Spells in Combat wrote:</div><blockquote> Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to <b>make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell</b> and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. </blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Attacks of Opportunity wrote:</div><blockquote> Attacks of Opportunity: Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the spell's level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don't provoke attacks of opportunity.</blockquote><p>And therefore, per the FAQ, you provoke two Attacks of Opportunity for Casting a Spell that has a Ranged Touch Attack, because the Ranged Touch Attack is made as a part of Casting the Spell.
<p>And due to the "interrupts the flow of actions in the round" from Attacks of Opportunity rules, those TWO attacks of opportunity are going to be resolved the exact instant they're provoked, and these two AoO's take precedence over Immediate Action or Readied Actions, and that is because the normal flow of actions in the round have been interrupted once the Attacks of Opportunity have been provoked.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>The FAQ you provided has the answers contained within it. That is the rule that tells you there are two provoking events. If one of those events never happens you cannot claim an AoO off of it.
<p>Some basic questions:
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If my spell fails/I'm unconscious/dead, do I get to make an attack roll and deal damage?
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If I don't get to make an attack roll then am I really making a ranged attack?
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Can the AoO generated from making a ranged touch attack interrupt the spell and force a concentration check?</p>
<p>And on the side, you also have not answered the question regarding how AoOs with a archer making multiple attacks works.</p>
<p>(Personally I find it very telling that you won't provide direct responses to my questions above. You keep trying to dance around the issue without giving a straight forward answer to these. You still haven't even responded to my "If an AoO provokes an AoO which one resolves first")</p>
<p>These are all examples that the rules operate exactly like I've been telling you they do. AoOs are triggered off of events (not specific actions, the FAQ you reference tells us that). The rules also tell us that a provoking action cannot generate more than one AoO. So we see plainly from the FAQ that that "action" talked about as a triggering action for an AoO is not a game defined action, but rather an "event" as it is called in the FAQ. And a single game defined action can clearly generate multiple AoO events (for example, casting a ranged attack spell, or making a full attack as an archer).</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><br />
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...and that is because the normal flow of actions in the round have been interrupted once the Attacks of Opportunity have been provoked.
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</blockquote><p>Readied actions (and immediate actions) also interrupt the normal flow of actions, they are not themselves part of the normal flow of actions. We know that because the rules on readied actions tell us "...you <b>interrupt</b> the other character". I'm not sure why you keep ignoring this detail. Its even plain in your acknowledgement that a readied action triggered off someone making an attack would interrupt an AoO just as easily as it would interrupt a standard action attack.
<p>So, yes, I acknowledge and continue to acknoledge that AoOs interrupt the normal flow of actions. But neither readied actions or immediate actions are within the normal flow of actions. Both of them are also capable of interrupting the normal flow. Both of them are triggered of off specific types of events that occur just like AoOs are. And if those events don't occur, you cannot use the readied/immediate actions (ok, technically some immeidate action spells could be cast without a triggering event, but doing so would be a pointless endeaver that simply wastes a spell - eg, feather fall could be cast while not actually falling).</p>Ryze Kuja wrote:There is nothing in the rules that says what you're saying is how it operates. You do not provoke a first AoO for starting to cast the spell, and then provoke a 2nd AoO later at the end of the cast if you make your Concentration Check. I'm going to need you to proffer a single rule that explicitly says that's how it works, because frankly I think you're just making things up. Otherwise, we're going to be using these rules:
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat wrote: Ranged Touch...bbangerter2021-09-01T22:35:46Z