Alchemist / Summoner Synthesist


Rules Questions


So, first off some relevant quotes from the rules:

"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma)."

"While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor."

By my reading that indicates that the Synth ability and the Mutagen stack because the two entities are 'fused into one creature' that 'can use all of (the character's) abilities and gear save armour.

I just walked away from a game because another player insisted (and would have kept insisting) that was not the case.

Anyone?


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Both the eidolon and mutagen grant a natural armor bonus, neither is an "increase to existing natural armor bonus" or other such language, so standard stacking rules state that only the higher applies.


Yeah. They are both straight natural armor bonuses, so don't stack. It'd be like wearing chainmail and plate at the same time. Only the best bonus applies.

It's not that you don't have both bonuses to natural armor. They both exist. It's just that the bonuses don't add together.


I am talking about the Strength bonus from Mutagen and Synth


The mutagen bonus to strength is an alchemical bonus, so it should stack with anything that the synthesist grants to strength.


Melkiador wrote:
The mutagen bonus to strength is an alchemical bonus, so it should stack with anything that the synthesist grants to strength.

That's what I thought. This guy was telling me that the Alchemist was drinking the mutagen, not the Sythethist so the Mutagen STR bonus never made it onto the character in Sythethist mode. He also said that I couldn't have more than 2 arms in Synth mode even if I bought the evolution Extra Limbs.

I walked from that game an hour after being accepted. I really didn't want to argue the point.


Sounds to me as if you found a player who has has issues in the past with the sheer amount of power that a synthesist summoner and/or an alchemist can have and has taken to applying arbitrary houseruled restrictions to the them…

Synthesist Summoners have the potential to be exceedingly broken due to getting their eidolons high physical stats and their own mental stats allowing them to effectively dump all physical stats if they really want to, to get a character with high stats all around… and then evolutions can make them even more broken with the right choices… but what many fail to realize is that the synthesist is giving up quite a bit of opportunity cost and strategic use of their eidolon for that power, infact a normal summoner is usually just as dangerous if not actually more so than a synthesist because they can have their eidolon up in melee combat hitting just as hard as the synthesist while still throwing around spells during the same round.

Alchemists when focused towards mutagens can easily look as if they are breaking rules due to how many attacks they can ultimately get in a single round. This is likely the reason why the extra limbs and tentacle discoveries are worded the way they are as well…and with mutagens being the only source of alchemical bonuses, they can stack with virtually anything for some very high physical stats… but this comes at costing them a large chunk of their discoveries and takes quite a few levels to get the ball rolling.

So it’s not really unreasonable for someone to think alchemists and synthesists need restrictions… but in all honesty it is usually better to talk with any player who shows an interest in playing one as a dress your concerns rather than actually apply restrictions… neither of them are actually as broken as people make them out to be….


Really the only stat that the synthesist can dump that the regular summoner can’t is dexterity. All summoners can dump strength. And a synthesist that dumps constitution will likely die to any incapacitating damage, when their eidolon drops and their drop in constitution causes them to lose enough hit points to die outright. If anything, synthesists should have higher constitution than their eidolon, so if they go below 0, they might immediately stay on their feet from the sudden increase in constitution.

Overall, the synthesist is weaker than the base summoner, because of the loss in action economy. It’s main issue is that it’s just much more blatant in displaying the disparity between martials and casters.


Ornery Hobbit wrote:
This guy was telling me that the Alchemist was drinking the mutagen, not the Sythethist

*blink blink* Does the guy have split personality disorder, and presumes that for everyone else, too?

Although I must say that I question the wisdom of bringing a Synthesist to a new table.

Chell Raighn wrote:
Synthesist Summoners have the potential to be exceedingly broken due to getting their eidolons high physical stats and their own mental stats allowing them to effectively dump all physical stats if they really want to, to get a character with high stats all around…

No no no! The ability score stuff is not why Synthesist is such a strong martial - indeed, a Synthesist's (initial) physical ability scores are worse than other martial's. It is part of the reason Synthesist is so hated, but that hatred doesn't mainly come from actual overall power.

I do agree with your general point that this is probably an issue of the player acting with a "what I consider too strong can't be legal" mindset.

Liberty's Edge

Or maybe he is reading the rules?

Mutagen wrote:
Upon being imbibed, the mutagen causes the alchemist to grow bulkier and more bestial, granting him a +2 natural armor bonus and a +4 alchemical bonus to the selected ability score for 10 minutes per alchemist level.

The mutagen changes the character stats.

Fused Eidolon wrote:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, but retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points.

The fused eidolon replaces the character's physical stats.

The Mutagen isn't an enhancement to the character stat, that would be ported over to the Fused eidolon stats, it is an increase of the character stats, that are replaced by the Eidolon stats.

Just as an added point, the Mutagen affects who drinks it. But the eidolon isn't an alchemist and doesn't get any benefit from drinking the mutagen. The one getting the benefits is the alchemist, but you don't use the physical stats of the alchemist when he is fused with the eidolon.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Or maybe he is reading the rules?

Mutagen wrote:
Upon being imbibed, the mutagen causes the alchemist to grow bulkier and more bestial, granting him a +2 natural armor bonus and a +4 alchemical bonus to the selected ability score for 10 minutes per alchemist level.

The mutagen changes the character stats.

Fused Eidolon wrote:
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, but retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points.

The fused eidolon replaces the character's physical stats.

The Mutagen isn't an enhancement to the character stat, that would be ported over to the Fused eidolon stats, it is an increase of the character stats, that are replaced by the Eidolon stats.

Just as an added point, the Mutagen affects who drinks it. But the eidolon isn't an alchemist and doesn't get any benefit from drinking the mutagen. The one getting the benefits is the alchemist, but you don't use the physical stats of the alchemist when he is fused with the eidolon.

Ummm

"Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature."

So what is stopping me from drinking the mutagen *after* I summon the snyth? At that point we are 'fused into one creature'. What affects one affects both.

Liberty's Edge

Can you show me where in the mutagen description says it targets something?
Target is a game term. Drinking something isn't targeting it.


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You're conveniently ignoring the second part of the sentence, the part that completely destroys your entire argument: "they are fused into one creature".

That phrase (as well as a similar phrase) also shows up in a different spot in the Synthesist rules, completely unrelated to targetting:

"A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. The synthesist directs all of the eidolon’s actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature."

That "one creature" drinks the mutagen, not just the humanoid part. There is no affecting only the humanoid part, the mutagen must affect the fused creature, and therefore must work.


Is the fused creature considered a non-alchemist? A normal Eidolon would be considered a non-alchemist so would not be able to use a mutagen. The fused synthesis is considered both his original type and an outsider, but uses the worst scenario instead of the best. Type is a specific game term but it does bring up the point of what is the fused creature.

As to the targeting argument that is actually covered under the synthesis.

While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces the class's eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.

Liberty's Edge

Alchemist isn't a Type, so the fused creature wouldn't use the "whichever is worse for the synthesist" part when taking the mutagen, but to me, it seems very clear that:
1) the mutagen affects the alchemist's original stats,
2) the ediolon replaces the alchemist physical stats.

When you replace something, you replace it.

Let's say you make a syntetist/dragon disciple. The increases in the stat of the syntetist when he increases his levels as a dragon disciple change the fused creature stats?
No.
What increase are the base stats of the character, not those of the fused creature.


Can a fused Syn Sum use spells (bulls str, etc...)to alter his stats?

IMO, if the Sum takes the Mutagen and then fuses, the ediolon replaces the stats. But if the fused Sum + ediolon takes the mutagen, yes it works.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Alchemist isn't a Type, so the fused creature wouldn't use the "whichever is worse for the synthesist" part when taking the mutagen, but to me, it seems very clear that:

1) the mutagen affects the alchemist's original stats,
2) the ediolon replaces the alchemist physical stats.

When you replace something, you replace it.

Let's say you make a syntetist/dragon disciple. The increases in the stat of the syntetist when he increases his levels as a dragon disciple change the fused creature stats?
No.
What increase are the base stats of the character, not those of the fused creature.

As per your example of the Dragon Disciple/Synth combo, you are reaching.

The ability score bonuses you gain with a Dragon Disciple are level based and permanent. They are added once when you level (IE *before* the mutagen is drank) and never end.

The mutagen is more akin to a spell that you 'cast' on yourself as you can only do it once per day and it it has a limited duration.

Bottom line: I am not seeing anything anywhere that supports your argument that the mutagen automatically affects the alchemist's original stats *by default* as opposed to whatever stats they happen to have at the time they drink the mutagen. Nothing. Nada. Show me where it says this in the rules. Show me and I will believe.


Diego Rossi wrote:

to me, it seems very clear that:

1) the mutagen affects the alchemist's original stats

Where do you take this from? The mutagen description doesn't talk about "original stats". There is not the slightest bit of indication that a mutagen's bonuses behave any different from any other ability score bonuses.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Let's say you make a syntetist/dragon disciple. The increases in the stat of the syntetist when he increases his levels as a dragon disciple change the fused creature stats?

No.
What increase are the base stats of the character, not those of the fused creature.

Dragon Disciple gains permanent bonuses that explicitly work "as if through level advancement", and fusing with an Eidolon would be done afterwards. What we're talking about is an alchemical bonus from a temporary effect that's applied after fusing with the Eidolon.

To be clear, I do agree that if an Alechmist/Synthesist would imbue a mutagen and then fuse with the Eidolon, the Mutagen would no longer work. But if a fused Synthesist imbues a mutagen, there is only one creature whose ability score can be affected, and that's the fused entity. At that time, the Alchemist/Synthesist character doesn't exist as an individual creature.


One thing to say to address the OPs original post; the summoner can choose to make the eidolons armor bonus entirely an ARMOR bonus "Armor Bonus: The number noted here is the eidolon's base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner." and can therefore stack the natural armor bonus from the mutagen if they choose this option. Now on to another point. The fusing of a summoner and his eidolon is not described as a polymorph effect and a polymorp spell is a targeted effect so by RAW the synthesist summoner should be able to gain the size bonuses from such spells (if the spell can target outsiders) as well.


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I would actually be surprised if anyone ever chose to make any of an eidolon's AC bonus an armor bonus rather than a natural armor bonus. The Mage Armor spell or Bracers of Armor are usually better than any form of natural armor bonus that a PC can get. The Amulet of Natural Armor doesn't count because it actually stacks with a natural armor bonus.


Assuming the Eidolon is fused before the Mutagen is drank, I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. Obviously, Natural Armor doesn't stack, but that is a nonissue if you choose regular armor from the Eidolon.

I am pretty sure the fused Alchemist/Summoner/Eidolon would see the effects of the Mutagen just the same as any other Alchemist. Or, at least, I don't see anything legit stopping it...

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