Secrets of magic ama?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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wegrata wrote:
What are your favorite debuff, blast and buff spells from the book?

I haven't read it in that fine of a detail yet.

I like Biting Words a lot as I've always liked that spell/feature.

Bloodspray Curse is very cool - fort save -
sux - for 1 min, 1st time each round that target takes 10+ piercing or slashing dmg from a strike, it takes an additional 2d6.
fail - same as sux but also adds 2d6 persistent bleed.

Tortoise and the hare - slow 1 target and quicken another

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Are summoners able to cast any summon spell outside of their tradition's list without multiclassing?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

No. Summoners have no way to grab off-tradition spells and, unlike Magi and their Studious Spells feature, have no abilities for additional spells/slots at all (although they can evolve some spells onto their eidolon)

The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Squiggit wrote:

No. Summoners have no way to grab off-tradition spells and, unlike Magi and their Studious Spells feature, have no abilities for additional spells/slots at all (although they can evolve some spells onto their eidolon)

The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

Thank you.


Squiggit wrote:
The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

Well that's underwhelming... :P

Thanks for the info.


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graystone wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

Well that's underwhelming... :P

Thanks for the info.

That's pretty terrible.

I still don't understand how Paizo designers who understand the game math that is based on level think that a lvl 15 summon is useful at 20th level. It is 5 plus levels lower than the boss enemies they will fight and nearly useless in battle because it can't hit ACs or overcome saves that much higher level than they are.


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Squiggit wrote:

No. Summoners have no way to grab off-tradition spells and, unlike Magi and their Studious Spells feature, have no abilities for additional spells/slots at all (although they can evolve some spells onto their eidolon)

The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

boosting your summons along with your eidelon sounds pretty choice


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It can be, though it might run into the same issue Tandem Strike does with a minion's attacks being far enough behind it's not actually a boost, depending on what you summon.


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WWHsmackdown wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

No. Summoners have no way to grab off-tradition spells and, unlike Magi and their Studious Spells feature, have no abilities for additional spells/slots at all (although they can evolve some spells onto their eidolon)

The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

boosting your summons along with your eidelon sounds pretty choice

It's not without an attack boost. I used this in the playtest. Summons are so far behind in attack rolls against the ACs of even even leveled challenges that the boost in damage isn't offset by the inability to hit.

I would rather have an attack boost than a damage boost.

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
wegrata wrote:
What are your favorite debuff, blast and buff spells from the book?

Still going through them, but so far I like Thundering Dominance as a lvl 2 spell. Can only be cast on companions or Eidolons, but give them a +1 to intimidate checks for 1 minute and they get a one time use to a 10-foot emination of sonic damage of 4d8 and gives Frightened on a failed will save.

The best part is the damage specifically targets "enemies"


How does Biting Words work here?

Any new Divine Damage Cantrips?


Seisho wrote:

How does Biting Words work here?

Any new Divine Damage Cantrips?

Just Haunting Hymn. The other 5 Divine Cantrips are non-Damaging.


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Do the Magus and Summoner have the Cantrip Expansion feat?

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
Do the Magus and Summoner have the Cantrip Expansion feat?

Magus yes (lvl 2 feat).

Summoner no...sorta. It doesn't have that feat, but it has Magical Understudy as a lvl 2 feat that gives your Eidolon 2 cantrips and it uses the summoner's spellcasting modifiers.


Invictus Fatum wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Do the Magus and Summoner have the Cantrip Expansion feat?

Magus yes (lvl 2 feat).

Summoner no...sorta. It doesn't have that feat, but it has Magical Understudy as a lvl 2 feat that gives your Eidolon 2 cantrips and it uses the summoner's spellcasting modifiers.

Thanks! Interesting that Druid is the only casting class that doesn't have it (or a similar feat like Summoner does.)


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Concordant Choir is another cool one, it's a Variable Action Spell. Divine.

1-3 actions does sonic dmg to 1 enemy, 2 is more dmg in a small burst and 3 is a 30ft emanation.


A few questions concerning the Magus:
Can you Spellstrike with attack spells which also require a save, such as Disintegrate?
Does Arcane Cascade require "casting spells, speaking, or using a manipulate action which requires hands"? If not, then I think you can cast a Polymorph spell like Elemental Form and then enter your Arcane Cascade, which could be quite cool / useful.
If I have a wand in one hand, and my sword in the other, is there anything stopping me from Spellstriking with the spell in the wand?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
lightwitch wrote:

A few questions concerning the Magus:

Can you Spellstrike with attack spells which also require a save, such as Disintegrate?
Does Arcane Cascade require "casting spells, speaking, or using a manipulate action which requires hands"? If not, then I think you can cast a Polymorph spell like Elemental Form and then enter your Arcane Cascade, which could be quite cool / useful.
If I have a wand in one hand, and my sword in the other, is there anything stopping me from Spellstriking with the spell in the wand?

I believe you need the level 2 feat that allows that. It's called, "Expanded Spellstrike"


lightwitch wrote:

A few questions concerning the Magus:

Can you Spellstrike with attack spells which also require a save, such as Disintegrate?
Does Arcane Cascade require "casting spells, speaking, or using a manipulate action which requires hands"? If not, then I think you can cast a Polymorph spell like Elemental Form and then enter your Arcane Cascade, which could be quite cool / useful.
If I have a wand in one hand, and my sword in the other, is there anything stopping me from Spellstriking with the spell in the wand?

It doesn't say you can't use disintegrate but it doesn't mention it at all really, just says you can spell strike with attack spells and the spell uses your attack result. So i think they'd still get a save.

arcane cascade just requires your most recent action to have been Cast a Spell or spellstrike

Wand should work fine, it says you cast the spell into your attack


lightwitch wrote:

A few questions concerning the Magus:

Can you Spellstrike with attack spells which also require a save, such as Disintegrate?
Does Arcane Cascade require "casting spells, speaking, or using a manipulate action which requires hands"? If not, then I think you can cast a Polymorph spell like Elemental Form and then enter your Arcane Cascade, which could be quite cool / useful.
If I have a wand in one hand, and my sword in the other, is there anything stopping me from Spellstriking with the spell in the wand?

Yes you can with disintegrate, but the creature will make the save after as normal. (Mentioned on Multiple Defenses clarification).

Arcane Cascade is a stance, works like a stance, but to enter needs to use a spell before, have the concentrate trait though.

You can spellstrike using the spell in a wand, though probably hard with most styles as a lot of them occupy both hands.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deriven Firelion wrote:
graystone wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

Well that's underwhelming... :P

Thanks for the info.

That's pretty terrible.

I still don't understand how Paizo designers who understand the game math that is based on level think that a lvl 15 summon is useful at 20th level. It is 5 plus levels lower than the boss enemies they will fight and nearly useless in battle because it can't hit ACs or overcome saves that much higher level than they are.

Speaking from experience? they provide flanking and soak actions in boss encounters, and occasionally get lucky shots in, which is fine because they're only eating your third action once they're on the field, or they can provide utility magic like healing. Like a lot of things in PF2e, they don't quite play the role you expect them to play but they can def play tactically viable role.

They operate better as a damage mechanic in encounters that aren't against a solo boss, so they're just fine or even great in severe and extreme encounters that feature a lot of enemies on the field rather than one big enemy, as they're better able to hit, use their own AOE, and soak more hits.


Is spellstrike and action now instead of metamagic?


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Riddlyn wrote:
Is spellstrike and action now instead of metamagic?

Two actions. No traits. However,

SoM wrote:
Metamagic: You typically can’t use metamagic with Spellstrike because metamagic requires the next action you take to be Cast a Spell, and Spellstrike is a combined activity that doesn’t qualify.


So how will it interact with resonant? Like with the conducting rune?


Riddlyn wrote:
So how will it interact with resonant? Like with the conducting rune?

Hmm. Resonant does specify last action or spell and you do Cast a Spell as part of the spellstrike. I think you wouldn't get the resonant effect during the Strike since the whole thing is a single activity, but you'd be able to have it activate after. Not that it'll do you much good.


Oh that's sounds saddening. Would have been a really good rune for Magi


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
graystone wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

Well that's underwhelming... :P

Thanks for the info.

That's pretty terrible.

I still don't understand how Paizo designers who understand the game math that is based on level think that a lvl 15 summon is useful at 20th level. It is 5 plus levels lower than the boss enemies they will fight and nearly useless in battle because it can't hit ACs or overcome saves that much higher level than they are.

Speaking from experience? they provide flanking and soak actions in boss encounters, and occasionally get lucky shots in, which is fine because they're only eating your third action once they're on the field, or they can provide utility magic like healing. Like a lot of things in PF2e, they don't quite play the role you expect them to play but they can def play tactically viable role.

They operate better as a damage mechanic in encounters that aren't against a solo boss, so they're just fine or even great in severe and extreme encounters that feature a lot of enemies on the field rather than one big enemy, as they're better able to hit, use their own AOE, and soak more hits.

Yes, speaking from experience, both actual and simulated.

I'm not sure how you play. But in general tactical creatures ignore non-threatening enemies. I've only had a summoned creature do something useful one time at lower level and that was a mud wretch.

Most of the time they are a complete waste of a high level slot that is ignored or weakened even further by something like an aura, gaze, AoE attack, or the many other abilities that high level creatures have that allowed them to rip apart lower level creatures in the same way PCs can rip apart lower level creatures.

For example, if I sent a lvl 15 creature against a lvl 20 PC, it will last maybe a round. One AoE spell it is likely to critically fail will absolute obliterate it. Thus if I send a lvl 15 creature at a lvl 20+ monster, it is literally useless.

I have also play-tested summoned creatures multiple times as I wrote a house rule to make them slightly more effective. But even this house rule has not made them threatening enough to waste your highest level slot.

They aren't very good, especially at the highest levels against equal to boss monster creatures. They can be ok against Level-1 or lower creatures, but not sufficiently good to warrant your highest level spell slot when you can just hammer lvl-1 or lower creatures with an AoE spell. It will do far more damage than a summon.

So yes, I speak from experience in game as well as testing. They are a bad option for your highest level spell slots due to the level based math.

They do not soak actions or do what you say they do for this reason. They just die very quickly the higher level you get because higher level monsters often get a variety of abilities that allow them to attack or affect multiple creatures without spending additional actions. They often critically hit or cause to critically fail saves summoned creatures that take enormous damage or the worst possible effect, while the summoned creature does nothing to the monster it is fighting due to its high AC, saves, and overall defenses like damage resistance.

That is why I wonder at people who make claims about summoned creatures against equal to level+1 or more monsters. The monsters of that level we fight are quite powerful and have a lot of abilities that cause near constant saves for a variety of abilities that if you fail weaken you even further. They do this without using extra actions. They aren't must some orc swinging an axe, they're creatures with frightening auras, paralyzing gazes, AoE breath weapons or spells, or attacks that allow them to hit everyone in melee range for 2 actions as long as they are different targets doing a lot of damage with some rider effect. And defenses and ACs so high that even the PCs of equal level with maxed out weapons don't hit them easily.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
graystone wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

Well that's underwhelming... :P

Thanks for the info.

That's pretty terrible.

I still don't understand how Paizo designers who understand the game math that is based on level think that a lvl 15 summon is useful at 20th level. It is 5 plus levels lower than the boss enemies they will fight and nearly useless in battle because it can't hit ACs or overcome saves that much higher level than they are.

To be fair for that feat, the level 10 Incarnates can be pretty crazy. Like raze a city, kind of crazy.

Edit: Okay, Incarnat(e) singular. I'm talking summon kaiju.


What do the multiclass archetypes give you?


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The Ronyon wrote:
What do the multiclass archetypes give you?

Magus gives 2 cantrips with the dedication, with the option to pick an once per minute spellstrike, a hybrid study focus spell and the bounded spellcasting feats for slots.

Summoner gives the Eidolon that starts with a 16 in the mainstat that becomes 18 at lvl 5 before stat boosts, a feat to pick the first eidolon ability (like dragon breath weapon), bounded spellcasting feats, feat to increase the eidolon proficiency to expert and a feat to pick an evolution feat at -4 instead of half like usual for Multiclass dedications.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

What is the main difference between the rage phantom, the devotion phantom, and the psychopomp eidolons? (They all seem fairly similar thematically). Does each of them have two builds like other eidolons do?


Rfkannen wrote:
What is the main difference between the rage phantom, the devotion phantom, and the psychopomp eidolons? (They all seem fairly similar thematically). Does each of them have two builds like other eidolons do?

They're all unique types that then have 2 Stat blocks between them.

The rage one is like a spirit barb, gets a power attack and gains temp hp when boosted and high level they aoe strip resistances.

Devotion has a retribution strike, save buff, dmg reduce aura.

Psychopmp has ghost touch, cast invisible on you both, bunch of ghost handling stuff.

1st 2 are occult spell list, 3rd is divine


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Rfkannen wrote:
What is the main difference between the rage phantom, the devotion phantom, and the psychopomp eidolons? (They all seem fairly similar thematically). Does each of them have two builds like other eidolons do?

every eidolon has two statlines and 3 unique abilities. The stats don't vary significantly between eidolons. The rage phantom is a mini barbarian. The devotion is a little like a mini champion. Psychopomp is completely different from both of them being set up to specialize in killing undead.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Interesting! I was thinking it would be fun to play a summoner flavored as a classic necromancer with a main undead they summon. Sounds like rage would be the best option for that? Devotion sounds good, but might be better for gish builds? I like the invisibility of the psychopomp, but being focused on anti-undead abilities might be awkward for a necromancer lol.


Sagiam wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
graystone wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
The only support for Summoning spells is three feats: One at 6 that lets you turn a spell slot into two spell slots but only for summoning spells (once per day), one at 8 that makes Boost Eidolon hit your summons and a level 20 feat that upgrades the level 6 feat to let you turn one level 9 slot into two level 10 slots (but only for summoning and incarnate spells).

Well that's underwhelming... :P

Thanks for the info.

That's pretty terrible.

I still don't understand how Paizo designers who understand the game math that is based on level think that a lvl 15 summon is useful at 20th level. It is 5 plus levels lower than the boss enemies they will fight and nearly useless in battle because it can't hit ACs or overcome saves that much higher level than they are.

To be fair for that feat, the level 10 Incarnates can be pretty crazy. Like raze a city, kind of crazy.

Edit: Okay, Incarnat(e) singular. I'm talking summon kaiju.

The inkarnate spells seem like a cool idea. Not really summons, more like AoE spells. If they do cool effects, then that should make some people happy. This is the game of short-term combats with bursty damage.


So aasimar champion of ragathiel with summoner dedication for an angel buddy. Would it work or would it be too action starved?


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WWHsmackdown wrote:
So aasimar champion of ragathiel with summoner dedication for an angel buddy. Would it work or would it be too action starved?

Since so much champion stuff comes from their reactions it's probably one of the better options for a summoner dedication since you don't get act together or tendem feats.


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WWHsmackdown wrote:
So aasimar champion of ragathiel with summoner dedication for an angel buddy. Would it work or would it be too action starved?

An angel summoner is always OP: just ask the BMX bandit. ;)


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graystone wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
So aasimar champion of ragathiel with summoner dedication for an angel buddy. Would it work or would it be too action starved?
An angel summoner is always OP: just ask the BMX bandit. ;)

Interestingly enough, I came to this realization today.

1. Angels are an option for summoners.
2. G&G will offer inventors the ability to build companions they can ride.
3. This means, come October, Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit will both be viable characters at PF2E tables.


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In the playtest, the Magus had the Spirit Sheath 2nd level feat, enabling one to store their weapon extra-dimensionally, and draw it as part of Striking Spell.

Does the feat still exist, and do you still get the Quickdraw function when using Spellstrike?


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TheGentlemanDM wrote:

In the playtest, the Magus had the Spirit Sheath 2nd level feat, enabling one to store their weapon extra-dimensionally, and draw it as part of Striking Spell.

Does the feat still exist, and do you still get the Quickdraw function when using Spellstrike?

Yes, it's still in. Still 2nd level. Still lets you Interact to draw out your weapon during Spellstrike.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

...

I have also play-tested summoned creatures multiple times as I wrote a house rule to make them slightly more effective. But even this house rule has not made them threatening enough to waste your highest level slot.

Let me guess: Your testing consisted of pitting the summon(s) vs. the monster(s) in direct face-off fight?

Not to derail the thread, but summons not being anywhere near as good at fighting then any of the PCs is absolutely intentional. Summons are not supposed to compete with PCs.

Hint: Do not have summons attack a boss monster, have them use Aid actions on behalf of the party's actual damage dealers. Aid provides a Circumstance bonus to attack, which stacks with, for example, the Status bonus from Bless or Heroism.

And unless the GM sees fit to adjust it, a DC 20 is easy to critically succeed against for higher level summons.


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Lycar wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

...

I have also play-tested summoned creatures multiple times as I wrote a house rule to make them slightly more effective. But even this house rule has not made them threatening enough to waste your highest level slot.

Let me guess: Your testing consisted of pitting the summon(s) vs. the monster(s) in direct face-off fight?

Not to derail the thread, but summons not being anywhere near as good at fighting then any of the PCs is absolutely intentional. Summons are not supposed to compete with PCs.

Hint: Do not have summons attack a boss monster, have them use Aid actions on behalf of the party's actual damage dealers. Aid provides a Circumstance bonus to attack, which stacks with, for example, the Status bonus from Bless or Heroism.

And unless the GM sees fit to adjust it, a DC 20 is easy to critically succeed against for higher level summons.

No. My testing consisted of using the summoned creature as intended with a group with a caster using a sustain action.

I also used it in the summoner playtest with an eidolon while flanking with the boost eidolon with the summoner.

I really don't understand why this is so hard to accept. A summon spell is not a good use of a 3rd sustain action. It doesn't eat actions. It dies quickly.

What are you all fighting that is so weak with actions that it eats actions? As the levels rise, I am fighting stuff that does the following:

1. A lot of auras that require a round by round save with a critical fail that is debilitating.

2. 2 action attacks that can hit everyone in range with full BAB.

3. Highly mobile creatures that move around combat a lot.

4. AoE spells or attacks that require a high save and do immense damage.

5. Save attacks that require a high save or suffer serious debilitation.

My group has tried to use summoned creatures multiple times. Summon Dragon, Summon Elemental, Animate Dead, and Summon Fey. One time in all those uses do I remember any of them doing anything useful and that was a mudwretch.

I tested multiple summons using the combined eidolon with summon boost. It missed over and over and over again even with flank doing next to no damage or effect.

I found the following:

1. Against equal to higher level opponents they are inferior to a direct damage or sustainable damage spell for damage output.

2. Creatures of that level can ignore them focusing attacks on players with no effect.

3. Summoned creatures cannot use reactions and thus any reaction abilities don't apply and can't be used to slow creatures or punish them for movement.

4. Players usually set up flanks, not creatures. So that did not come up that often and wasn't necessary.

I have found no competitive use for summons in high level play. It is a bad use of a high level spell slot that doesn't do competitive damage or have a competitive effect to other spells.

Very easy to prove with real game data. The effectiveness of summons is a theoretical idea on forums, but not a provable theory in game play.

I am not looking for summons to replace martials. I would like them to be a competitive option for an equivalent level spell. Right now they are not.


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Lycar wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

...

I have also play-tested summoned creatures multiple times as I wrote a house rule to make them slightly more effective. But even this house rule has not made them threatening enough to waste your highest level slot.

Let me guess: Your testing consisted of pitting the summon(s) vs. the monster(s) in direct face-off fight?

Not to derail the thread, but summons not being anywhere near as good at fighting then any of the PCs is absolutely intentional. Summons are not supposed to compete with PCs.

Hint: Do not have summons attack a boss monster, have them use Aid actions on behalf of the party's actual damage dealers. Aid provides a Circumstance bonus to attack, which stacks with, for example, the Status bonus from Bless or Heroism.

And unless the GM sees fit to adjust it, a DC 20 is easy to critically succeed against for higher level summons.

Hint: An aid action requires a reaction and summoned monster with the minion trait can't use reactions.

Am I wrong about this or did I miss something?

Sovereign Court

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I feel like to make summoned monsters work, you have to scour the bestiaries looking for monsters with peculiar abilities that work even against enemies with DCs they can't really match. So for example things that automatically inflict an easy-to-clear condition. Your enemy can clear it but that will cost it actions, so your summons is doing something.

But this means a LOT of deep searching and extreme system mastery is required to make summoning really work. You shouldn't have to parse dozens of statblocks just to make a spell work.

I kinda like the Starfinder approach to summoned monsters. They're absolute glass cannons; so-so to-hit, reasonable damage, wafer-thin HP. But because Starfinder monsters also have so-so AC, summoned monsters can hit well enough, which means they actually "deserve" attention from enemies.

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