Mirror of Life Trapping and invisibility

[Ferka]

So a mirror of life trapping can trap a creature that sees its own reflection in the mirror and fails a save. Does an invisible creature (who cannot see invisible things itself) avoid the life trap automatically? Or does the power of the mirror work anyway if you are within 30 feet of it?

[Mysterious Stranger]

The item is clear you have to see your reflection in the mirror for it to work. It even gives creatures that are aware of its nature a chance to avoid seeing its reflection (50% chance) and not having to make a saving throw. That pretty much means you need to see your reflection for it to work. If you are invisible your reflection does not exist in the mirror so cannot be seen.

[Ferka]

Yes, that’s logical and what I was assuming/hoping for as a PC who might be encountering said mirror in a dungeon soon, if the clues we are finding are correct. Testing the theory will require expending some resources and hoping that the DM sees it the same way. Thanks for weighing in!

[MrCharisma]

That made me wonder - if you're invisible you have no reflection, but if you have See Invisibility can you see your reflection or do you still not have one?

[Mysterious Stranger]

Considering that Invisibility is a Glamer which actually changes the sensory qualities of the target I would say you do not have a reflection..

Many divination spells allow you to perceive something that may not actually be there. When you use a divination spell to see something that already happened or will happen in the future are you actually seeing the event or are you seeing an image of the event? See Invisibility is a divination spells so it may not actually allow you to perceive the invisible thing, it may be showing you an image of the invisible thing. Considering that what you “see” is translucent that seems highly likely.

[MrCharisma]

Hmmm... but then would See Invisibility's divination abilities be strong enough to also see an image in a mirror?

I'm genuinely curious about this one.

From a "realism" standpoint (whatever that means in this scenario) it seems like Invisible creatures don't have reflections, so you can't see their reflections - even with See Invisibility.

My guess is the Devs intended "See Invisibility lets you pretend they're not invisible in all ways" because it's the simplest way to rule things.

But likely this isn't actually covered by RAW.

I'm just curious what people think.

[Mysterious Stranger]

In the Harry Dresden novels he had a demon in his head once that allowed him to see in the dark by putting an illusion in his head of the place he was in. He could not actually see in the dark, but for all real purpose he could. The illusion overlaid reality allowing him to function as if he could see. See Invisibility or any other divination spell could work similarly.

[Pizza Lord]

While a person who's invisible (at least using the spells and not some unique or uncommon version) is broadly assumed to be aware or able to see themselves, at least in some ambiguous/nebulous way (possibly hazy, see-thru, or otherwise), (According to FAQ, they don't have any inherent fumbling or trouble acting in regards to themselves, ie. poking themselves in the eye or a penalty to Disable Device cause they can't see their fingers), I don't believe that transfers to reflections and such. Certainly they won't cast a shadow if in sunlight, nor should they reflect off anything.

In the case of see invisibility, that's a tough call. For instance, could they see another invisible creature's reflection if the creature was behind them and they were gazing into the mirror? Does the 'magic' of see invisibility allow their vision to 'bounce' off the mirror, strike the creature and perceive it (because there's no reflection on the mirror to view directly, see invisibility or not). Or is the invisible creature actually casting an invisible reflection into the glass that can be seen (if you can see invisible)?

What happens is going to be up to the GM and how they rule such a case. That will determine if you can see yourself in a mirror while invisible (and able to see invisible).

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

In the Harry Dresden novels he had a demon in his head once that allowed him to see in the dark by putting an illusion in his head of the place he was in. He could not actually see in the dark, but for all real purpose he could. The illusion overlaid reality allowing him to function as if he could see. See Invisibility or any other divination spell could work similarly.

In such a case, it probably would not work. If it's truly an illusion, then it would have to be a truly powerful phantasm to elicit a magical response. For example, if the imp was immune to petrification and the room contained a medusa or basilisk, could the illusion of one turn Harry to stone? Maybe in his world, likely not in Pathfinder. Similarly, assuming the imp wasn't affected by the magic mirror, when he created the illusion of a mirror, it probably wouldn't have the actual powers of the mirror, even if he accurately depicted what the mirror was showing.

[Azothath]

*sigh*
regular Invisibility is an illusion. you can get into the details but essentially it is a spell interaction and a GM's wisdom and insight is needed to resolve the minor RAW conflict. It can go either way.

For me, the mirror has a shot at trapping an invisible character as it is not affected by the minor illusion. The mirror is a Big Magical Trap.
Still, what invisible character looks at themselves in a mirror unless they are actively trying to examine or steal it?

[Ferka]

I’m expecting to encounter a mirror that has trapped an NPC that we need to rescue. I also don’t know where in the dungeon that the mirror might be located, so I might encounter it without intending to. I’m hoping that invisibility might be a layer of protection in such a circumstance, to avoid a dicey saving throw.

[Pizza Lord]

Mirror of Life Trapping wrote:

...

Any creature coming within 30 feet of the device and looking at its own reflection must make a DC 23 Will save or be trapped within the mirror in one of the cells. A creature not aware of the nature of the device always sees its own reflection. The probability of a creature seeing its reflection, and thus needing to make the saving throw, drops to 50% if the creature is aware that the mirror traps life and seeks to avoid looking at it (treat as a gaze attack). ...

If you see your reflection, then there's a chance you get trapped. If your PC legitimately suspects there is such a mirror to be encountered, then you need to say that at the first sight of a mirror you avert your gaze. If your GM mentions a mirror, even if it turns out to not be this mirror, then always say you look away. This will at least give you a 50% chance to avoid needing the save.

Also, before even going on the adventure, cast invisibilty in your inn room, tell the GM you are looking in a mirror and ask if you can see your reflection. This will give you a definitive answer to whether your reflection appears in a mirror or not. Then, you can legitimately know how your GM will rule on whether your reflection appears in a mirror and, as such, whether you can see it (assuming he makes consistent rulings).

[Mysterious Stranger]

Invisibility is an illusion, but it is a glamor. A glamor unlike a figment, pattern or phantasm actually changes the subject’s appearance. It does not create a false sensation or affect the targets mind in any way shape or form. In the case of invisibility it is causing the visual image of the character to disappear. Since the subject has no visual image there is nothing to reflect.

[willuwontu]

There's always this fun FAQ.

So you might be able to see yourself in the mirror, but nobody else can see you.

[Ferka]

Thanks, Pizza Lord, good advice all around.