For sure but not everyone wants variety, you know? If I want to play. Dragon themed caster, which isn’t hard given there are two sorcerer bloodlines for it and an archetype, I just want to transform into a dragon. It seems odd the spell doesn’t auto heighten. If someone wants a variety of battle forms, then they can pick up a number of different form spells.I just wish the form spells heightened every level. I love Dragon Form but it bums me out that I can’t reliably use it at all levels at a consistent power level.It sucks but I guess it forces variety....
As I mentioned earlier, having such a small number of forms being actually viable at a given range actually does more to harm variety too. And in case you missed it earlier as well, at least you'll have dragon synthesist summoners to fill your "being a dragon" needs.
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As i mentioned earlier, at least you'll have dragon synthesist summoners to fill your "being a dragon" needs.
I’m never going to say no to o more draconic options, but that’s not the same IMO. Dragon Form shouldn’t have awkward heightening and it’s something I hope gets addressed in an errata
As i mentioned earlier, at least you'll have dragon synthesist summoners to fill your "being a dragon" needs.I’m never going to say no to o more draconic options, but that’s not the same IMO. Dragon Form shouldn’t have awkward heightening and it’s something I hope gets addressed in an errata
I think its amazing that they're introducing a way of becoming a dragon in early levels at all, given that dragons are supposed to be magical, near-deific apex creatures.
But anyway, the scaling issues at higher levels aren't limited to dragon form (as discussed for animal and aerial forms being pretty much unusable past 12th level). I agree with this as a design principle, as it encourages learning new spells, but in practice it feels awful for people that dont want to abandon their forms and hopefully they'll introduce some support feats that allow all the forms to scale better past their intended levels. Including such changes without requiring feat investment would make the later forms less appealing and probably undermine their design intent.
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I'm thinking of class balance the way it has been set up. You get full casting, or you get to be better at hitting things with a stick. You don't get both.
You get the versatility of upwards of 150 spells to choose from, or you get to hit things with a stick.
If you decide to not use that flexibility with spells, that's your problem.
Apart from all the various ways that maritals can already cast spells you mean, or every single status effect or save-hitting ability built into almost every martial class, let alone forgoing the general preference of skill feats that some martials have.
Look dude, if you are going to intentionally dump all nuance from the discussion, then you aren’t engaging in good faith.
No class in this game is ever siloed into just doing one thing. What does exist is the inability to engage in those things equally.
As i mentioned earlier, at least you'll have dragon synthesist summoners to fill your "being a dragon" needs.I’m never going to say no to o more draconic options, but that’s not the same IMO. Dragon Form shouldn’t have awkward heightening and it’s something I hope gets addressed in an errataI think its amazing that they're introducing a way of becoming a dragon in early levels at all, given that dragons are supposed to be magical, near-deific apex creatures.
But anyway, the scaling issues at higher levels aren't limited to dragon form (as discussed for animal and aerial forms being pretty much unusable past 12th level). I agree with this as a design principle, as it encourages learning new spells, but in practice it feels awful for people that dont want to abandon their forms and hopefully they'll introduce some support feats that allow all the forms to scale better past their intended levels. Including such changes without requiring feat investment would make the later forms less appealing and probably undermine their design intent.
Dragon summoner is really cool, I agree, no argument from me there.
On Dragon Form, if fireball scales at every level, I don't see why Dragon Form (or any form spell for that matter) can't as well. I understand the possible design intent might be to force spell variety, but I disagree that its a fun design philosophy. I rather have all Form spells scale consistently, so if someone (like me) just wants to transform into a dragon, then they can do that. If you want more variety with more forms (probably better from an optimized point of view), then you can pick up other form spells.
At the end of the day, Form spells aren't a deal breaker and not the hill I'll die on, but just a minor grievance with the system. It might be that the new form spells in SoM have more consistent scaling which I'll love. Playing an angel summoner that then uses Angel Form to become an angel alongside my angel eidolon sounds sweet.
Yeah, your grevances are shared by many, me included, but it seems very unlikely they'll retroactively fix/errata the existing spells. At this point its much more likely they'll simply add more until people have so much choice they dont miss their old forms, or they'll add better support feats for older forms. I'd like both, but only time will tell.
It's pretty unlikely that a bunch of errata is going to come up that fixes problem for form spells. A more likely solution, if theres one coming, is adding more options. I could see something like a shapeshifting archetype, wih feats like "when you're polymorphed into a battlefield with a size larger than medium, you can choose to become medium size. If it's reach is greater than 5ft, it becomes 5ft." There could even be artificial scaling - I'm not the best at math so I'm not sure on the numbers, but a feat that lets you cast a form spell at a level higher than it can be naturally heightened, giving bonuses depending on how much higher it gets casted, could be something too.
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I'm thinking of class balance the way it has been set up. You get full casting, or you get to be better at hitting things with a stick. You don't get both.
You get the versatility of upwards of 150 spells to choose from, or you get to hit things with a stick.
If you decide to not use that flexibility with spells, that's your problem.
Apart from all the various ways that maritals can already cast spells you mean, or every single status effect or save-hitting ability built into almost every martial class, let alone forgoing the general preference of skill feats that some martials have.
Look dude, if you are going to intentionally dump all nuance from the discussion, then you aren’t engaging in good faith.
No class in this game is ever siloed into just doing one thing. What does exist is the inability to engage in those things equally.
Yeah, about that whole 'all the various ways that maritals can already cast spells' thing, that is a rather disingenuous argument.
First of all, when casters are entering melee, they are directly competing with the core competency of the martial classes. This is not the case the other way around.
What with the general consensus apparently being that casters have a hard tame making their spells stick, being a proficiency level and at least 1 or 2 stat points behind a caster makes offensive spells a definite no-go for martials. Therefore martials are incapable of competing with true casters.
Second, if martials take it upon themselves to learn a few utility and self-buff spells, they are not competing with casters. Quite the opposite, they free the casters in the party from having to reserve their spell slots for exactly these buff spells, allowing them more freedom in their own spell selection.
You are welcome.
By the by, I vividly remember how some people on certain 'optimisation' boards actually argued, that a martial character ought to buy a caster Pearls of Power with their own money, so that the caster would not need to waste spell slots on 'propping up the gimp'.
So now you ought to be happy that martials can get their own damn buffs.
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Therefore martials are incapable of competing with true casters.
On the flip side, for spells that don't care about proficiency (and doubly so if they don't care about level), multiclass martials can cast spells almost as good as anyone.
It creates this kind of awkward dichotomy where a martial who wants to pick up blasting spells is triple tapped (lower spell level means less damage, worse DCs means it's harder to land that damage and fewer slots means you just can't do it as often as you need to) while a martial who uses MCD to pick up a handful of utility spells can be almost as good with them as a full caster.
It's, unfortunately, not the most well executed system in that respect.
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Therefore martials are incapable of competing with true casters.On the flip side, for spells that don't care about proficiency (and doubly so if they don't care about level), multiclass martials can cast spells almost as good as anyone.
It creates this kind of awkward dichotomy where a martial who wants to pick up blasting spells is triple tapped (lower spell level means less damage, worse DCs means it's harder to land that damage and fewer slots means you just can't do it as often as you need to) while a martial who uses MCD to pick up a handful of utility spells can be almost as good with them as a full caster.
It's, unfortunately, not the most well executed system in that respect.
But... that is the point!
In the same way that casters are not supposed to poach on the martials' territory, neither are martials allowed to compete with casters on equal terms.
Frankly, a martial class picking up blasting spells is stupid, because all blasting does is deliver HP damage. That's already what martials are good at. Yes, blast spells allow dealing damage to multiple foes at a time, but quite frankly, that is caster territory where martials shall not tread.
And again, picking up utility spells is not competing with casters, it is lightening their work load! Insofar I find that the system does work pretty well for making sure that the initial choice of your class is actually meaningful.
Either you start with a martial class and can pick up some utility, by expense of being a bit less of a martial, or you start as a caster and can, without becoming any less of a caster, pick up some martial tricks.
But both sides will never be as good as the other with the other side's tricks. So your initial choice of class remains meaningful.
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You are aware your argument works fully in the opposite direction as well right?
Casters killing enemies frees-up martial actions to do things other than strikes. Hell, they would even provide more sources of flanking!
You’re also welcome I guess?
Honestly, this whole “stay in your lane” nonsense doesn’t work with the current setup of PF2 as is has stood since launch. The genie is out of the bottle and can’t go back in. There just exists a strong divide in who gets the most benefit.
If we’re going to equality of access, we need equality of ability to go with it.
Also, just fix spells with the Attack trait already. It’s ridiculous to just have this utter underclass of spell.
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But... that is the point!In the same way that casters are not supposed to poach on the martials' territory, neither are martials allowed to compete with casters on equal terms.
But they can compete to some extent, as long as you pick the correct spells. Having 'correct' be so narrowly defined is unfortunate.
Frankly, a martial class picking up blasting spells is stupid, because all blasting does is deliver HP damage.
I mean, that's a tautology. They're bad because the balance is bad, which makes them bad. If the balance was better, they wouldn't be though.
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Martials will have at best what? 14 spells a day? Not reaching the same proficiency while having less than half the slots, and having those slots scale pretty slowly. Yet you want casters to reliably reach the equivalent of master weapon proficiency.
How does that matter, when spells still work at full potential?
At level 20 you will get 2 level-6 spells slots, 1 level-7 and one level-8.That's enough to cast level-6 Heroism 4 times. Do you possibly need more? I highly doubt it.
So fighters and monks, who already have legendary proficiency, can get another +2. barbarians gets master +2 circumstance bonus, so still can benefit from heroism's status bonus. An monks can treat their first roll as minimum 10.
Where even druid at best get expert +2 status bonus. And heroism wouldn't help because... status bonus.
"But hey, Druids have elemental spells and all". Yeah, except if you use wildshape - your build surely is melee based, not spell-damage based. Not mentioning that normally you can't cast at all in Battle Forms.
So in the end it comes again to questioning yourself "should i keep sucking in melee, landing maybe half hits compare to our party fighter/barbarian/monk? Or should i just roll new character who will instead specialize in Lightning Storm?".
And where you surely can pick second option. It really sucks when game tells you "nope, melee is just not yours, go back to your fireballs and such".
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your build surely is melee based, not spell-damage based.
It's trivial for a druid to be good at both of these. Until the very highest levels your STR will be at most 2 behind your Wisdom and wild shape makes up at least some of the proficiency bonus difference. Being spell damage based pretty much means you max out Wisdom and maybe get the reach metamagic feat.
So you're a full caster with decent martial ability. It's definitely true that your contribution to the group comes from a variety of sources and that you're worse than a specialist in any one thing. But the combination of melee ability, utility spells, AOE spells, individual blasting spells, battlefield control spells and very flexible options from wildshape makes your character pull their weight in and out of combat.
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You are aware your argument works fully in the opposite direction as well right?
Casters killing enemies frees-up martial actions to do things other than strikes. Hell, they would even provide more sources of flanking!
You’re also welcome I guess?
Uhm, no? Martial actions from casters MUST be worth less then martial actions from, you know, martial classes, or there would be no point in being a martial in the first damn place.
We were there already and it sucked. Good riddance.
So no, replacing a good martial action with an adequate martial action is a bad trade. Striking is what martials excel at, tripping etc. notwithstanding. Casters have better things to do. Namely telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
Which, again, martial classes can't do, unless they sacrifice some of their martial identity to dabble in spells.
Honestly, this whole “stay in your lane” nonsense doesn’t work with the current setup of PF2 as is has stood since launch. The genie is out of the bottle and can’t go back in. There just exists a strong divide in who gets the most benefit.
If we’re going to equality of access, we need equality of ability to go with it.
Also, just fix spells with the Attack trait already. It’s ridiculous to just have this utter underclass of spell.
Strong disagree. Casters get to mess with reality. In return they don't get to step on the martial's toes any more.
Martials get to be the best at hitting things with other things, and they may dabble at messing with reality. As long as they don't have to overcome any resistance, they can even get away with it. But they will never be able to compete with a true caster on anything approaching an even footing. Neither should they be allowed to.
The whole 'stay in your lane' thing is a hard-learned lesson from previous editions were jerk-wad caster players could outright destroy the fun for every non-caster player. The new edition strives to make that impossible. I can only hope they succeed in that endeavour and do not cave to the shouts of the loud minority.
Casters cast and may shoot a bow or swing a sword if they want to, but they will only ever be good at casting. Martials sword & bow good and may dabble in spells. But they do not get to show up casters. That is the balance between the great divide. If you do not like that, PF 2 is not for you.
But hey, maybe the Magus bridges the gap and satisfies your cravings. There is still hope. But we already know that he doesn't progress past Mastery in weapon skills and we don't know how much of a caster he is. I wonder for how many what ever casting ability Paizo deems to bestow on the Magus will be 'not enough'. Again.
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But they can compete to some extent, as long as you pick the correct spells. Having 'correct' be so narrowly defined is unfortunate.
But... that is the point!In the same way that casters are not supposed to poach on the martials' territory, neither are martials allowed to compete with casters on equal terms.
Martials are not supposed to compete with casters, period. The rules do not support it.
Frankly, if you see martials self-buffing instead on depending on the caster players for buffing as 'competing with casters', I don't know what to tell you. Seems like our definitions of 'competing' aren't compatible.
Frankly, a martial class picking up blasting spells is stupid, because all blasting does is deliver HP damage.I mean, that's a tautology. They're bad because the balance is bad, which makes them bad. If the balance was better, they wouldn't be though.
They are bad for martials by design. So that they are good for casters. Also by design. You may think that that is bad design but brother, I have lived through 3.x / PF 1 and I can tell you, I *vastly' prefer the new design. But hey, to each their own I guess.
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Seems like our definitions of 'competing' aren't compatible.
That's the point, we're redefining the language to suit whatever our purpose here is. I mean sure, Fireball is a Cool Wizard Thing... but so is Haste. In both cases we're talking about someone casting a third level spell.
But it's Really Cool And Awesome and "not a competition" for someone to want to MC Wizard to cast one of those and Really bad "jerkwad" behavior if they'd rather cast the other. That is undeniably a little bit arbitrary and doesn't really map to anything.
I mean as you pointed out, casting Fireball is a bad idea right out the gate, so it's not like it being more serves any end in terms of balance (and the same could be said to a large extent of the melee spellcaster people have talked about).
It's not the end of the world either way (unless you're someone who wanted to dabble in fire magic on your Fighter or punch someone on your wizard, but it's clear what the sentiment is about those people), but the lines in the sand we've drawn here for when something is "fundamentally problematic" and when it isn't is a little scattershot.
Honestly, even the assertion of 'design' seems a bit suspect here. It's more likely just a natural outcome of how the spell system works and not something really worth changing. I doubt there's anyone at Paizo actually incensed over the idea a Ranger might cast Hydraulic Push through their multiclass spellslots.
You may think that that is bad design but brother, I have lived through 3.x / PF 1 and I can tell you, I *vastly' prefer the new design.
Oh yeah, all the 3.5 horror stories of Fighters casting Burning Hands.
... Jokes aside, the closest 3.5 ever actually got to that was probably the Tome of Battle, which ended up being pretty tame by 3.5 standards. So I dunno about that really being a good place to take a stand considering everthing else in PF and 3.5
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So in the end it comesIn the end it comes down to you are still a full spellcaster outside of wideshape.
In short, like i said: "go hurl fireballs in lightning, leave melee to fighters".
i don't know how you, but i hated D&D 4e with passion. And last thing i want is Pathfinder turning into one. Especially since Pathfinder was founded as alternative to "new route" WotC decided to take back in a days.And no, it's ok loving "classic" spellcasters, who like hurl all kind of harmful energy around.
What is not ok, is trying persuade others that this should be the ONLY way of playing spellcasters. Especially since in older editions it wasn't.
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So in the end it comesIn the end it comes down to you are still a full spellcaster outside of wideshape.In short, like i said: "go hurl fireballs in lightning, leave melee to fighters".
i don't know how you, but i hated D&D 4e with passion. And last thing i want is Pathfinder turning into one. Especially since Pathfinder was founded as alternative to "new route" WotC decided to take back in a days.And no, it's ok loving "classic" spellcasters, who like hurl all kind of harmful energy around.
What is not ok, is trying persuade others that this should be the ONLY way of playing spellcasters. Especially since in older editions it wasn't.
casters can compitently go into melee, especially in battleform. They won't do it at martial lvls buts that's ok
That's the point, we're redefining the language to suit whatever our purpose here is. I mean sure, Fireball is a Cool Wizard Thing... but so is Haste. In both cases we're talking about someone casting a third level spell.
But it's Really Cool And Awesome and "not a competition" for someone to want to MC Wizard to cast one of those and Really bad "jerkwad" behavior if they'd rather cast the other. That is undeniably a little bit arbitrary and doesn't really map to anything.
But that's the thing: Blowing up hordes of mooks is actually something casters are pretty decent at. That is actually one of 'their things'. So it is only right and proper that a martial cannot steal the caster's thunder there.
But self-buffing isn't competing. If anything, the martial player must weight the opportunity cost of spending 2 actions on a self-buff vs. making, for example, a Power Attack or Double Slice attack.
But if the battle starts with the caster slinging a fireball and the martial hasting themselves, on the theory that it is advantageous to force the enemy to spend actions to close the distance, is teamwork, not competition.
Until 13th level when 7th level Haste becomes an option at least.
I mean as you pointed out, casting Fireball is a bad idea right out the gate, so it's not like it being more serves any end in terms of balance (and the same could be said to a large extent of the melee spellcaster people have talked about).
It is a bad idea for a martial dabbling in magic. It is a great way to inflict massive damage on on- or below level foes for a caster. As it is supposed to be, because 'crowd control' is supposed to be a 'caster thing'.
Oh yeah, all the 3.5 horror stories of Fighters casting Burning Hands.
Yeah, taking a single level in Wizard and even at CL 20 still only having 1 minute of Shield, 1d4 Burning Hands... It was just totally pointless. And casters sacrificing caster levels for whatever reason were doing it wrong. So yeah...
... Jokes aside, the closest 3.5 ever actually got to that was probably the Tome of Battle, which ended up being pretty tame by 3.5 standards. So I dunno about that really being a good place to take a stand considering everthing else in PF and 3.5
Yes, while it was derided as 'Spells for Fighters' and basically made core martials obsolete, it definitely gave martials fun stuff to play with, especially solving the must-stand-still-and-full-attack-or-suck problem.
The PF 1 version is Path of War and available on the d20PFSRD by the way.
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But that's the thing: Blowing up hordes of mooks is actually something casters are pretty decent at. That is actually one of 'their things'. So it is only right and proper that a martial cannot steal the caster's thunder there.
It is a bad idea for a martial dabbling in magic. It is a great way to inflict massive damage on on- or below level foes for a caster. As it is supposed to be, because 'crowd control' is supposed to be a 'caster thing'.
If only slaying hordes of mooks mattered. They're either entirely inconsequential and the casters can electric arc themselves to sleep or so numerous that blasting will deal its damage and then you lose to action economy. Doubly so if your mooks aren't even bad at reflex saves and are likely to save anyway.
If the martial is self buffing so that you can double up on buffs or get buffs and debuffs going quicker, great. If they're self buffing because the caster decided to be a pure blaster, then the martial is just working harder to carry dead weight.
Personally I hope they don't print more "pure" blast spells like fireball and lightning bolt and print more debuffs with damage riders like phantasmal killer or something like fire shield but that deals AoE damage on the initial cast.
On topic, an upper level feat to wild spell would probably be fine. Casting a low level spell and attacking with a superior bonus is something a fighter can do already so doing the reverse with the added tax of losing a turn transforming probably isn't too out there. Maybe make it 2 feats to first allow cantrips and other focus spells and then up to wild shape level minus x.
So, unless we two have a very different definition of 'revenge', wanting to learn from past errors and evolving the game into something less unbalanced and un-fun is not revenge.
Can we at least evolve into a game where playing a low level caster isn't somehow the least fun its been since AD&D 2e?
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casters can compitently go into melee, especially in battleform. They won't do it at martial lvls buts that's ok
But that's the thing. Do i just fool myself, pretending been good in melee, but in practice just been carried by others? Or been honest with myself roll either classic spellcaster, or martial?
I would prefer have more options. I might agree that making spellcasters so powerful in melee, that they can put any martials to shame is a bad idea (although monks historically always were very good). But give option at least make equal, situationally temporarily, but also consistently (not only on key battle form levels).
In short, as a spellcaster you spent your time learning how to hurl fireballs and lightning.Martials learned how to hit stuff real good.
They do different things.
Well, at least you confess in the end that you simply hate melee casters, and not just want something fare.
And no, you spent your lifetime however you want.
Just like fighter can spend 50/50 learning martial arts and be spellcaster at the same time. Spellcasters can do the same.
D&D in particular even have rich lore of whole traditions like that. For example Bladesingers and Raumathari Battlemages.
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casters can compitently go into melee, especially in battleform. They won't do it at martial lvls buts that's okBut that's the thing. Do i just fool myself, pretending been good in melee, but in practice just been carried by others? Or been honest with myself roll either classic spellcaster, or martial?
I would prefer have more options. I might agree that making spellcasters so powerful in melee, that they can put any martials to shame is a bad idea (although monks historically always were very good). But give option at least make equal, situationally temporarily, but also consistently (not only on key battle form levels).
In short, as a spellcaster you spent your time learning how to hurl fireballs and lightning.Martials learned how to hit stuff real good.
They do different things.
Well, at least you confess in the end that you simply hate melee casters, and not just want something fare.
And no, you spent your lifetime however you want.
Just like fighter can spend 50/50 learning martial arts and be spellcaster at the same time. Spellcasters can do the same.
D&D in particular even have rich lore of whole traditions like that. For example Bladesingers and Raumathari Battlemages.
Being -1 or -2 to hit isn't a deal breaker. It just makes consecutive attacks less likely. Consistent, reliable melee should be a martial thing.
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Area spells against the hoards are only useful so long as your party cooperates with you. Did the warriors once again charge into the hoard, rather than delaying and/or bottlenecking them? Guess you're out of luck. You will either have to blast everyone, or settle in for buffing Leoroy Jenkins and hoping for a decent outcome.
If only slaying hordes of mooks mattered. They're either entirely inconsequential and the casters can electric arc themselves to sleep or so numerous that blasting will deal its damage and then you lose to action economy. Doubly so if your mooks aren't even bad at reflex saves and are likely to save anyway.
I've seen more than one party destroyed because they couldn't get rid of the mooks fast enough, allowing the BBEG full use of their rounds to commit devastating attacks against the party (often with Aid bonuses or grab debuffs from said mooks to ensure those nightmarish crits).
Do not underestimate the mooks or the dramatic effect their presence can have on an encounter.
Area spells against the hoards are only useful so long as your party cooperates with you. Did the warriors once again charge into the hoard, rather than delaying and/or bottlenecking them? Guess you're out of luck. You will either have to blast everyone, or settle in for buffing Leoroy Jenkins and hoping for a decent outcome.
If only slaying hordes of mooks mattered. They're either entirely inconsequential and the casters can electric arc themselves to sleep or so numerous that blasting will deal its damage and then you lose to action economy. Doubly so if your mooks aren't even bad at reflex saves and are likely to save anyway.I've seen more than one party destroyed because they couldn't get rid of the mooks fast enough, allowing the BBEG full use of their rounds to commit devastating attacks against the party (often with Aid bonuses or grab debuffs from said mooks to ensure those nightmarish crits).
Do not underestimate the mooks or the dramatic effect their presence can have on an encounter.
The evoker wizard in 5e can morph aoe blasts to avoid party members. I really wish secrets of magic had gone the route of school archetypes but that ship has sailed. It would've been the perfect place to address nitpicks like that for preferred playstyles.
Area spells against the hoards are only useful so long as your party cooperates with you. Did the warriors once again charge into the hoard, rather than delaying and/or bottlenecking them? Guess you're out of luck. You will either have to blast everyone, or settle in for buffing Leoroy Jenkins and hoping for a decent outcome.
I hear this a lot, but do people not talk amongst themselves even in character? Or formulate initial strike plans before entering combat? Heck using range to soften a target before melee class begins is a solid and sensible tactic.
I've seen more than one party destroyed because they couldn't get rid of the mooks fast enough, allowing the BBEG full use of their rounds to commit devastating attacks against the party (often with Aid bonuses or grab debuffs from said mooks to ensure those nightmarish crits).
Do not underestimate the mooks or the dramatic effect their presence can have on an encounter.
I have seen parties pushed to their limits because the numbers of mooks were simply high enough that detrimental riders on attacks and spells started racking up and the single target martials couldn't really control the flow of the battle (especially when mooks started using hit and run tactics). Throw in resistances, fast healing mechanics, movement tools or ongoing spells in the right place and it can get really interesting for players.
Aid is an action I am forever recommending PCs use, I tend to use it sparingly as a GM though as when players hit higher levels granting a +3 or +4 to a roll can easily mean devastating crits if played too smart.
My Age of Ashes group had a really hard time for the 4 sessions they had to play without a spellcaster in the party towards the end of book 4. (PC death and the player didn't have a spare ready before they went into the final chapter)
People with SoM, there's any news about battle forms?
Oh man is level 3 ooze form cool and interesting. It tanks your AC (7+level), but it makes you immune to crits and precision damage, 20 temp HP, resist 5 to acid, piercing and slashing, motion sense, and gives some really interesting options for attacks depending on the form.
This will pretty much shut down rogue like enemies.
People with SoM, there's any news about battle forms?
there are a bunch of new ones, fey lets you use manipulate actions
One of my friends got their copy, and they informed me that of the Battle Form spells in the book, they only noticed Angel Form and Ooze Form having any heightened versions. I'm hoping that's a mistake.
I really would not expect Paizo to be changing their established pattern.
Theres lots of litte things like this in the game. They are Paizo design choices.
One of my friends got their copy, and they informed me that of the Battle Form spells in the book, they only noticed Angel Form and Ooze Form having any heightened versions. I'm hoping that's a mistake.
Aberrant also heightens (at level 6, default spell level is 5).
Daemon, Devil and Fey don't heighten at all.
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Aberrant also heightens (at level 6, default spell level is 5).
Daemon, Devil and Fey don't heighten at all.
He must've missed Aberrant. The form spells I was told didn't have heightened versions were Cosmic, Daemon, Demon, Devil, and Fey.
It seem really weird, since when I was playing a wizard, all of the Form spells I looked at had at least one heightened option.
In fairness, battle forms are pretty decent and have good slot efficiency, they aren't exactly bad spells.
It is a bit of a bummer the heightening on the new spells is so limited though. Spells like Cosmic Form are really cool but no scaling gives it a relatively narrow window of time it's usable.
They say no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. I've rarely seen high STR low DEX Melee characters (most fighters, champions, monks, barbarians, etc.) use or follow any tactics beyond I run up and smash it with X. (pre-published) encounters are set up to begin at less than 60' and almost never traps or terrain to dissuade blindly rushing in. even when a plan is agreed on beforehand they go rushing in anyway. if you allow Leoroy Jenkins to die you are being a bad gamer. Ranged becomes useless unless the GM allows for it. melee characters should feel like the French on Battle of Crecy i.e. pin cushions to the longbow.
But again? Do people not encourage their players to talk, you know... roleplay in combat, change tactics, roleplay out of combat.
Be flexible. "This is our plan, this is our plan if things break down, things may still go sideways we yell at each other if that isn't working".
And there are plenty of AP encounters that are set up to allow for more than 60' engagement or even have terrain to make use of obstacles so ranged characters can fight. Plus ranged characters benefit from being able to reliably have 3-4 actions when fighting flying creatures or being able to dip in and out of greater or total cover.
I don't think GMs assuming dumb blind play is healthy for the game, especially when it is their job to facilitate and encourage dynamic and engaging combats that feel exciting for players.
Personally I dislike spare characters. Character death should be weighty and something that should be avoided. Spare characters make them feel disposable. so my games they are usually out for the session usually to get raised.
They spent nearly all their wealth trying to get him resurrected, even recruiting favours from a number of NPCs. After 3 failures they had to accept his fate.
When I say spare, I mean they didn't have one ready to go conceptually so we passed on introducing their new character until it was fleshed out and appropriate to the story arc. I don't expect the player to have a selection of characters ready to go, it was explaining to people who are reading why there wasn't a new character to replace the one who was lost.