Expanding Free Archetype Availability

[werewolfpaladin]

I understand thematically that the Magaambya teaches Primal and Arcane, specifically Druid and Wizard, and that's why those are the options in the Player's Guide, but I'm interested in opening up a few more options for my characters. Right now I'm tempted to say that as long as the free multiclass archetype provides access to the Primal or Arcane list, it's acceptable in my game. I might even include Bard depending on the character's story/goals.

How is everyone else thinking about expanding the free multiclass archetype? If you're going to expand it that is.

[Shisumo]

DISCLAIMER: I have no intention of opening up the archetype options.

BUT IF I WERE, I would probably do something similar - allow other multiclasses that give arcane or primal casting. (With an asterisk on magus and summoner, at least until I see what their multiclass casting looks like.) Probably also let the players use the free feats for Halcyon Speaker, at least once they had three feats from their basic multiclass archetype.

[Adraius]

According to Lost Omens: Character Guide, the Magaambya explicitly takes a broad view of education and capability, including taking students without magical talents, and non-spellcasters are noted as rising as high as Conversant rank, the second-highest rank at the Magaambya. My table is looking forward to trying out the Free Archetype variant rule, and allowing only Wizard and Druid dedications feels limiting in light of the sheer freedom normal Free Archetype offers, especially as my players come from 1e and really value the extremely broad character building options. In light of the information from the Character Guide, I see no reason not to play with the full Free Archetype variant rule, provided my players work with me to integrate their characters into the setting. Of course, I haven't been able to read the whole adventure, there's the possibility something in the later books expects the whole part to have substantial spellcasting ability, but that's something I can modify as a GM should it come to pass. For my game, I'd rather put my players in a position to have a blast creating their characters and explore the breadth of the system, as this will be their first/one of their first experiences with 2e.

[Shisumo]

Adraius wrote:

Of course, I haven't been able to read the whole adventure, there's the possibility something in the later books expects the whole part to have substantial spellcasting ability, but that's something I can modify as a GM should it come to pass.

While we do not, in fact, have details yet, the AP's developer has said outright that there are sections of the AP that assume all of the PCs have access to magic in order to address certain challenges, as well as assuming everyone in the party has either Nature or Arcane (and probably at a high level).

[Adraius]

Shisumo wrote:

Adraius wrote:

Of course, I haven't been able to read the whole adventure, there's the possibility something in the later books expects the whole part to have substantial spellcasting ability, but that's something I can modify as a GM should it come to pass.

While we do not, in fact, have details yet, the AP's developer has said outright that there are sections of the AP that assume all of the PCs have access to magic in order to address certain challenges, as well as assuming everyone in the party has either Nature or Arcane (and probably at a high level).

Thanks, that's great info. I'll most likely be running the campaign after all the books are out, so I'll have a chance to review things beforehand, but what I'll most likely do is make my players aware of those assumptions and let them build using full Free Archetype.

[Boardgamer88]

SoT Book 1 Spoiler:

Just to let you know that the adventure include a Academia Downtime Subsystem where players can gain ranks in one of the five branches. Each rank reward benefits including bonuses to certain skills, skill feats, and even Magaambya Archetype Feats (You get the Magaambya Dedication as a bonus feat at Rank 3).

So by default players do end up quite skilled.

[thejeff]

Boardgamer88 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

So by default players do end up quite skilled.

Spoiler:

I hope getting that Dedication feat doesn't block you from taking other ones like it normally would, but I don't see anything saying so.

While it's definitely a cool boost, I wouldn't want it to conflict with a player who wants to focus elsewhere.

[The Raven Black]

My main problem is the Wizard having no choice but to take the anathema of the Druid dedication.

Since Wizard and Druid are already fully faithful to the traditions of Magaambya, I would allow them to take any multiclass dedication.

If that feels too wide, I would at least allow them to take any prepared spellcasting multiclass dedication.

[The Raven Black]

thejeff wrote:

Boardgamer88 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

So by default players do end up quite skilled.

** spoiler omitted **

Indeed,

Spoiler:

the Special clause still applies "Special You cannot select another dedication feat other than Halcyon Speaker Dedication until you have gained two other feats from the Magaambyan Attendant or halcyon speaker archetype."

I think this is an oversight and was not intended to bar PCs from taking other dedications, just like the free archetype.

[Ron Lundeen]

The Raven Black wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Boardgamer88 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

So by default players do end up quite skilled.

** spoiler omitted **

Indeed, ** spoiler omitted **

I think this is an oversight and was not intended to bar PCs from taking other dedications, just like the free archetype.

This is not meant to bar anyone from taking a dedication feat in the usual way. It's like a free archetype in that regard.

[The Raven Black]

Ron Lundeen wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Boardgamer88 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

So by default players do end up quite skilled.

** spoiler omitted **

Indeed, ** spoiler omitted **

I think this is an oversight and was not intended to bar PCs from taking other dedications, just like the free archetype.

This is not meant to bar anyone from taking a dedication feat in the usual way. It's like a free archetype in that regard.

Thank you for this clarification, Ron. It is greatly appreciated.

I reposted it as an Edit in my post on the sticky GM thread.

[David knott 242]

I think I would keep the standard limitations for characters who are not druids or wizards to begin with, as the dedication feat from druid or wizard is needed to ensure that the character has certain abilities.

But a druid or wizard meets these requirements via his initial class, so a character from one of these classes should have more rather than fewer options. At a bare minimum, I would make Magus Dedication available to wizards. I will have to see the rest of the AP to determine whether there are any multiclass dedications that are not suitable for druid or wizard PCs to learn at the Magaambya.

[The Raven Black]

Since any other class can participate in the AP and choose Druid or Wizard MC, I guess any ability you could get as a Druid or Wizard taking another class MC Dedication will not be out of place, nor overpowerful. After all, that fellow student over there can do it better and earlier than you ever will.

[WatersLethe]

I'm going with:

1. Your character must have some amount of prepared Arcane or Primal spellcasting by level 2.

2. Your character must be at least trained in Arcana or Nature by level 2.

3. If you take a Wizard or Druid dedication, you can expect to get some campaign specific perks, but nothing earth shattering.

[David knott 242]

David knott 242 wrote:

I think I would keep the standard limitations for characters who are not druids or wizards to begin with, as the dedication feat from druid or wizard is needed to ensure that the character has certain abilities.

But a druid or wizard meets these requirements via his initial class, so a character from one of these classes should have more rather than fewer options. At a bare minimum, I would make Magus Dedication available to wizards. I will have to see the rest of the AP to determine whether there are any multiclass dedications that are not suitable for druid or wizard PCs to learn at the Magaambya.

Now that I have the PDF of Secrets of Magic, I think adding Magus Dedication as an option for the free feat at 2nd level would work fine. It basically grants the same abilities as Wizard Dedication and differs primarily in the set of feats that it grants access to. And I would have no problem picturing the Magaambya offering courses in Magus stuff.

[The Raven Black]

The Raven Black wrote:

Since any other class can participate in the AP and choose Druid or Wizard MC, I guess any ability you could get as a Druid or Wizard taking another class MC Dedication will not be out of place, nor overpowerful. After all, that fellow student over there can do it better and earlier than you ever will.

Thinking more about this, I think the PG should have said that Druids and Wizards, already being prime examples of the primal and arcane teaching traditions of the school, respectively, can get any Multiclass Dedication archetype they choose, though for those dedications other than druid or wizard, they still need to meet the ability score prerequisite.

[nanogibbon]

I'm starting Strength of Thousands tomorrow and I plan on giving the Magaambyan Attendant archetype from the Lost Omens Character Guide as a freebie. It seems to fit the role of offering Nature or Arcane skills and cantrips, while allowing players to go deeper into branch-specific specialization feats.

[xNellynelx]

nanogibbon wrote:

I'm starting Strength of Thousands tomorrow and I plan on giving the Magaambyan Attendant archetype from the Lost Omens Character Guide as a freebie. It seems to fit the role of offering Nature or Arcane skills and cantrips, while allowing players to go deeper into branch-specific specialization feats.

Players actually get this for free via the Study mechanic. When your Branch hits 3rd level you get the Magaambyan Attendant Dedication as a bonus feat.

[Perpdepog]

Necroing this thread to see if, now that the AP has been fully released and people have had time to play all the way through, are there any spots in the AP aside from the capstone feats that require a Wizard or Druid multiclass dedication?

I'm going to be running this soon and I've been toying with the idea of expanding the number of archetypes to at least encompass other arcane and primal casters to give my players a bit more variety. Has anyone come across any pain points where Wizard/Druid are more necessary for whatever reason?

[xNellynelx]

Perpdepog wrote:

Necroing this thread to see if, now that the AP has been fully released and people have had time to play all the way through, are there any spots in the AP aside from the capstone feats that require a Wizard or Druid multiclass dedication?

I'm going to be running this soon and I've been toying with the idea of expanding the number of archetypes to at least encompass other arcane and primal casters to give my players a bit more variety. Has anyone come across any pain points where Wizard/Druid are more necessary for whatever reason?

Nope, just the Capstones.

Minor Book 4 spoiler:

There is a construct that was created by druidic magic, and as a result ignores druids. But that's not really related to the free archetype, nor does it make Wiz/Druid required

The free archetype is Wiz/Druid because, as I understand it, Wizards and Druids are the primary attendees of the school. Not because it's required for the story.

[Perpdepog]

Excellent, thank you. That's what I was hoping would be the case. I'll be opening it up to more arcane and primal casters then.

[PossibleCabbage]

xNellynelx wrote:

The free archetype is Wiz/Druid because, as I understand it, Wizards and Druids are the primary attendees of the school. Not because it's required for the story.

Echoing this. The Wiz/Druid dedication is solely to provide a pretense for attending Golarion's premiere magical academy (and/or why they would admit you). If you wanted to open up the free archetype you could allow for any character that can make a plausible case for "why they are studying with the Magaambya", but then you run the risk of "wizards and druids have an advantage in being able to get any archetype for free". As always, talk with your players and figure out what kinds of characters they're interested in.

[Em0crash]

At my table the players are free to take any class / archetype combination they like as long as at least one of the choices provide spellcasting progression. Also I am pretty adamant that each player imroves their nature or arcane skill at least to Master during the AP. Of course one could argue that the Magaambya is a Wizard/Druid school but in the end as the GM its your game.

So far I have encountered no issues.

Always remember that rules are only guidelines.