What would you add to this party?


Advice


So, I have been trying to work out a backup character for a while now and decided to come here and ask more veteran players what would be useful to have in this party?

We have a Gunslinger, A Ranger (Who focuses on ranged attacks) A Oracle (Who is evil and dont like to heal and is more of a general caster/blaster type) And a Psion (I think.. One of the psionic classes from Dreamscarred Press)

And I'm currently playing a Kineticist.I'v beent rying to figure out what the big holes in our composition is and my thoughts currently is we dont have any frontline combatants, No face type character (Nobody has any face skills and they feel useful in Skull & Shackles..) No healers (As our Oracle does not heal) And nobody to deal with potential traps and locks.

I was considering a warpriest or cleric in order to handle the healer and frontline combatant role (We are a neutral/evil party leaning towards evil so no paladins)

But I decided to come here now and ask, What would be useful to add to this party?


Front line fighter. Charismatic. Traps and locks. Healing.

Oof. That's a lot to fit in a single package. I'd say to be a bit more reasonable and pick three of them, letting someone else pick up the other.

If I had to handle the issue, I'd punt the issue of face skills to the Oracle. They have the Charisma already, and you are going to need all your other stats to make sure other roles are filled.

The only thing that comes to my mind that could possibly fit all four roles and not be completely horrible, read mediocre, at it (outside of a Paladin, which you've already said isnt an option), is a Chaotic Neutral Nature Fang Druid of Gorum with the Crocodile Domain, the Adept Channel feat and at least one or two Extra Channel feat(s). You'll get access to Slayer Talents, one of which nets you trapfinding, Ranger Combat styles (saves feats), Studied Target (to make up for your 3/4 BAB) and can even pick up an archetype for your familiar (protector is good). If you are feeling particularly ornery, taking the variant Multiclass Cleric, selecting the Rage subdomain, and RAGE-STOMPING everything is an option. You could pick a different domain, get an animal companion to help in combat, and be your own best friend.

So you lose wildshape? So what?


@DeathlessOne Oh, No no no, I did not mean I'd smash everything into one character. That was just holes I found in the party. I was asking more that class would you say would fit in this party to complete it more, And what holes could it fill, While I listed the holes I had found.

I could easily go for something that fills just one of the holes, I'm sorry for being confusing!


It seems as though your entire party is geared towards ranged combat. I'd continue to lean into that as, if you go frontline, none of your party seems to be the types to support or heal you. If you're going to bring in something different, I'd look at casters focused on battlefield control type spells (walls, pits, webs, thorns, ice sheets, clouds, etc.) Basically, your group appears to be blast it before it reaches us types, so make it harder for things to get to you all.

You've also admitted that you all are neutral to evil, seems to me that it wouldn't be innapproptiate to use some summons and/or a skilled familiar as your trap springers and/or detectors.

Ranger might be able to heal you all some. The Oracle and the Psion in theory have either the stats or spells to step up for face skills. Trully any build can be a face with a few judicious skill point assignments. That's as much about role play as build.

If you yourself want to be the skill jockey. Looking at all the holes you need to fill, an Inquisitor might be right up your alley. Not sure how much they get for area denial, but they've got Charisma, skills, and healing out the wazu, and with the right archetype you can get either summons or maybe some others pets as meat shields.

Otherwise, I feel like almost any 9th level caster could meet your needs. Obviously the divines make healing and face more easy, but a Witch could fit the ticket too.


I do really like the divine classes... I mean, I only played one in Pathfinder, My very first character was a cleric and I had no idea what I was doing back then.. But when ever I look at them I find myself thinking they all seem awesome and much fun.. Been thinking I should play some more of them, And also give cleric another try sometime...

Full arcane casters (Or the psychic) also seem fun, Never played anything like those before.. Hmm...


Front line healer/face with trap skills? Half-Elf Bard (Archaeologist)/Swashbuckler. I picked Half-Elf so you get a free Skill Focus feat and you also get the FCB from both classes.

Level 2 in Archaeologist gives you a bonus in Disable Device and Perception and you disable complex devices in half the time (minimum 1 round). By level 6 you can disable magical traps as well. Bard gets the Cure spells on their spell list and you could also get wands of level 1-4 healing spells and spend some skill ranks on Use Magic Device.

Swashbucklers are all about Dex and luck and get bonus feats every 4 levels. If you're looking for a path to deal Dex to damage, there's either the Dervish Dancer swashbuckler or just the feat Slashing Grace, though you'll need Weapon Focus in a slashing finesse weapon. Personally I'd go:

Swashbuckler 1 Weapon Focus: Longsword, Skill Focus: Use Magic Device (racial bonus)
Bard 1
Swash 2 Slashing Grace
Bard 2
Swash 3 Dodge
Bard 3
Swash 4 Mobility, Spring Attack
Bard 4 Arcane Strike (Rogue Talent/Combat Feat)

At this point you're level 8, you've got Charmed Life 4/day instead of 3 thanks to the FCB for Swashbuckler, and you've got extra HP from the FCB for Bard. You've also got a couple minor spells, but with some ranks in UMD and decent Cha you've hopefully got a wand of Lesser Restoration you can use, along with wands of Cure spells that show up on your spell list.

Combat focuses mainly on your Longsword. By level 8 you're BAB +7. If you begin the game at 18 Dex and hike it to 20 by level 8 with a Belt as well as picking up a +1 Longsword, you've got Melee: +1 Longsword +14/+9 (1d8 +7 Plus 4 Precision; 19-20 x2)

You're not doing TONS of damage but you're delivering on all the points you need to. You've also got plenty of skill ranks to spread around so you can max out Diplomacy, Disable Device, Heal, a Knowledge skill, Perception, and Stealth. You might also think about Graceful Athlete if this AP will have you making a lot of Climb and Swim checks as you likely won't have a great Str in favor of your Dex for attack and damage.

Edit: Just saw the note that you're not smashing all of this into one character. Sorry for the suggestions here, though Swashbuckler might still be thematic and helpful as a frontliner/face.


Why be sorry Mark? The OP was asking for options. Even if they decide not to go that route, it's good to see that putting all the pieces into one character is possible. Aren't you always the one who says you aren't a great character builder? Seems to me like you knocked this one out of the park.


@Mark Hoover 330 Dont be sorry! I'm sorry for being bad at explaining myself. Always nice to get sugestions even if I'm not going for that exact sugestion, I like seeing what people have to sugest!

Mayhaps i'm just weird, But my brain works better when I see what people sugest so even if I dont end up using anything sugested, The sugestions and information I get helps my brain think of things and helps me decide. =)


Merellin wrote:

@DeathlessOne Oh, No no no, I did not mean I'd smash everything into one character. That was just holes I found in the party. I was asking more that class would you say would fit in this party to complete it more, And what holes could it fill, While I listed the holes I had found.

I could easily go for something that fills just one of the holes, I'm sorry for being confusing!

Eh, no worries. I saw the exact same holes as you did and my first instinct is to plug them immediately. Lack of a frontline fights is a serious handicap if something gets close to one of your squishies.

Honestly, I'd still suggest the Nature Fang Druid. I've played one at least two separate times (one with a familiar and the other with an animal companion. the first could heal like a cleric, and the other just rage smashed things to death). You could do much worse. A LOT worse.


Does the oracle refuse to heal or just not know any healing spells. Even if he does not know any healing spells they are still on his spell list so he can use wands and scrolls to provide some healing. The ranger also has healing spells on his list so can do the same thing. This should reduce down the amount of resources you need to devote to being a healer.

Inquisitor is an excellent choice for what you want. The nice thing about the inquisitor is that most of their combat abilities work equally well in melee or ranged combat. This allows you to step up and be the frontline combatant your party needs, but at the same time allows you to still be decent at ranged combat. Choosing the right archetype and domain will let you function as the party face without having to make a significant investment into CHA. Going half orc will get you proficiency in some good melee weapons and access to the human FCB of extra spells known. If you want to focus on intimidate the half orc FCB is actually pretty good, but it is hard to turn down extra spells known for a spontaneous caster.


One person as the front line runs a serious risk of being smashed. That being so, a disposable front line - summons - might work better than trying to tank everything yourself. You could provide those well as a herald caller cleric, animal shaman druid, sorcerer or using the summoner class itself. Sorcerer, summoner and maybe the cleric could do face stuff; cleric and to a lesser extent druid can do healing; a seeker sorcerer or maybe a druid with the monkey domain can handle traps.


@DeathlessOne Thank you, I'l take a look at it. =)

@Mysterious Stranger The Oracle is a evil oracle whose player does not like healing so the only "healing" spell she knows is Infernal Healing and would rather not use it. Wands are good, But healing also includes using Restoration and such spells to deal with poison, disease, ability drain and things and not just hit points.

The Inquisitor does seem quite interesting... Thanks. =)

@avr I do like playing characters that can summon... Herald Caller Cleric seems very very limited in what they can summon,But that might just be me not understanding them very well...

Thanks everyone! You have given me a lot to think about. =)


Merellin wrote:
Herald Caller Cleric seems very very limited in what they can summon

Not really.

herald caller wrote:
...all creatures listed as summon monster options for priests of her deity (see Expanded Summoning for Priests on page 30), creatures whose alignment matches at least one aspect of her deity’s alignment, and creatures of an elemental subtype that matches a domain granted by the deity (if any).

So, say you worship Besmara. Anything with CG, CE, LN, N or CN alignment is fair game; this includes the animals which you'll summon with the entropic template. Anything listed for Besmara specifically, that's the entropic reefclaw, merrow and tylosaurus, is also an option. Finally, anything with the water subtype is valid, though they're all neutral anyway.

Don't like Besmara? Pick anything with either a neutral component to their alignment or an elemental domain as an option (though you don't need to take that option) should have plenty of possible summons. It's only going to be a problem if you really want a deity like Desna (no neutral component to her alignment & no elemental domain option).

Grand Lodge

Dhampir antipaladin intimidate build with a reach weapon could be appropriate in that group and setting...
Both your touch of corruption and the oracle's inflict wounds will heal you now.
And aura of Cowardice is awesome!!!
1 level dip i Thug Rogue for frightened instead of shaken.


@avr Hmm...I dont know much about templates.. I was just looking at the summon monster list and did not see many things with the alignments, And the deity specific lists where quite small. Mayhaps I need tolook up the stat block of eat creature to see if they have the right alignment?

Sorry for being dumb about this!

Edit: Reading it now, I just caught this one bit I had missed "Creatures marked with an “*” always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment." Well, That seems to solve it a bit. Sorry!

@*Khan* Never played Anti-Paladin, We had one in the group, But that character died and her player made the oracle.. Hmm..


I have this thing where whenever I see a thread about "what should I play in this party", I answer (to myself) with "Summoner", and then check if it actually works out. Let's see if my track record holds:

Merellin wrote:
we dont have any frontline combatants, No face type character (Nobody has any face skills and they feel useful in Skull & Shackles..) No healers (As our Oracle does not heal) And nobody to deal with potential traps and locks.

The eidolon is an excellent frontliner, the Summoner is cha-based (no face skills as class skills, but that's what traits're for), an eidolon with arms and the skilled evolution can be good at disable device (magical traps you dispel or spring with the SLA), and Summoner can use Wands of Infernal Healing. Condition removal would have to be done with UMD, but that, too, could be done by the Eidolon (which can has anything as class skills).

Yep, it's another hit!

Investigator can also legitimately fill every single hole, including condition removal without UMD'd scrolls, apart from use healing wands (which the Ranger can do, so that's not missing). Shaman, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Skald, and Bard (I like Mark Hoover 330's suggestion of Archaeologist, I just don't know why he had to dilute it with four levels of Swashbuckler) would also be able to do a lot of different things you mentioned.

Merellin wrote:
our Oracle does not heal

Not even with a wand after the fight? In a (borderline) evil party? Does the Oracle want to get their throat slit in the night and their gear spread around the party? Because that's how you get your throat slit in the night and your gear spread around the party!


@Derklord The summoner is fun, My GM has said only Unchained Summoners if they are to be used, I have not tried to build an unchained one yet...

The Investigator is a very interesting class too, I have seen it played a few times and it seems quite good!

As for our oracle, The player does not like healing and does not want to be a healer. She offers the ocasional Infernal Healing after combat if people are looking really injured, As for a wand, We do not have any yet (We only just claimed our own ship in Skull and Shackles)

Grand Lodge

Who is captain on your ship? You need some social skills to keep/control your crew.
Social skills and proff. Sailor is important in this app.
And I dont think you will do well without at least 1 frontliner.
Underwater combat mess up ranged combat a lot.
But summons could be a solution.


@*Khan* The captain is currently, for some reason, My goblin kineticist with 8 charisma and no people skills, Simply cus I had the highest profession sailor. If he was to die causing me to need this backup character I dont know who would become captain..

I started påondering the backup as I see huge glaring holes in our capabilities..


Merellin wrote:

So, I have been trying to work out a backup character for a while now and decided to come here and ask more veteran players what would be useful to have in this party?

We have a Gunslinger, A Ranger (Who focuses on ranged attacks) A Oracle (Who is evil and dont like to heal and is more of a general caster/blaster type) And a Psion (I think.. One of the psionic classes from Dreamscarred Press)

And I'm currently playing a Kineticist.I'v beent rying to figure out what the big holes in our composition is and my thoughts currently is we dont have any frontline combatants, No face type character (Nobody has any face skills and they feel useful in Skull & Shackles..) No healers (As our Oracle does not heal) And nobody to deal with potential traps and locks.

I was considering a warpriest or cleric in order to handle the healer and frontline combatant role (We are a neutral/evil party leaning towards evil so no paladins)

But I decided to come here now and ask, What would be useful to add to this party?

I never understand posts like this... people get bogged down in the minutiae of trying figure out all the specific details of so called "optimal party composition".

Its simple.

First and foremost, its about enjoying yourself. Thus, play what you want and what will make you happy as a player.

Let the party dynamic sort itself out organically. End of.


Y'know what also might make a good solo front line with some healing? Hunter. The class combines Ranger and Druid spell lists, so you can pull Cure and other condition mitigation spells from there. They also get Heal as a class skill so there's that too.

An AC is a decent front liner, if your character puts resources into their protection. I don't know how your crew would feel about their captain having, say, a tiger vs a parrot as a pet on the ship, but maybe they'd get over it? Anyway, level 2 sees you pick up either Precise Shot if you go ranged or Outflank if you're more melee inclined.

Then at level 3 and every 3 levels after you're getting free Teamwork feats. Take Outflank at level 2, then Pack Flanking at level 3 and now you and your AC, regardless of position are at +4 to hit a single target in melee. You automatically grant all Teamwork feats to your AC starting at level 3, and Outflank is automatically granted to your AC at level 2 if you'd made that choice.

Hunters get a free buff they can load onto their AC that lasts all day, starting at level 1 through Animal Focus. I prefer the Bull AF buff: +2 to Str (+4 at 8th level, +6 at 15th) for obvious reasons, but there are others. But with their spells, if you've got the time to pre-buff there are plenty of other enhancers to throw on Fluffy.

And, since you're part Druid, you could instead have a focus on Summon Nature's Ally spells too. You get the option to swap spells for that one like with a standard Druid, though you're still spending a Full Round to cast.

Now you're a 9th level spellcaster but you've gotta pick spells known. Still, that gets you some decent buff and healing options to keep you and your AC going in melee or, like I said, to fuel your summons if you go that way with it.

Since you're going Skulls and Shackles, there's a couple different aquatic archetypes you could go with instead. The Pelagic Hunter has you picking an aquatic AC and taking a different set of Animal Focus buffs that relate to sea monsters while the Aquatic Beastmaster, while it doesn't mandate an underwater AC, implies such a companion would be useful. The Animal Focus choices for that archetype are focused on common underwater animals.

Now, if you wanted a Hunter who could also be the face of the party, you've got Intimidate as a Class skill but you could pick up Diplomacy with a Trait. Enhanced Diplomacy shows up as a 0 level spell for druids, so you could take that as one of the Orisons you know from level 1.

Finally, traps. There, I cannot help you, at least not with the Hunter class. Disable Device isn't a class skill, though you could pick it up with a Trait, but you'd never be able to deal with magical traps or even find them. You could always take a dip into Urban Ranger or another class that gets Trapfinding, if this is important for you.


Since you're already so range focused, a melee hunter or melee nature fang druid with a tanky animal companion would be a good idea.


Thanks everyone, I have gotten a lot to think about.

I think most of my troubles come from the fact that I always worry about everything all the time.. And when it comes to making characters I worry I'l end up making something that isent useful to the party, Or doesn't pull its weight in the party...


In that case, have you played an arcanist with the occultist archetype? Your summons can fill the frontliner role, and at higher levels you could summon creatures to heal you, though most of those are good aligned. A low level summon can often "disarm" a trap the hard way, but if you want to get your hands dirty, you could always cast aram zey's focus on yourself to be pretty good at disarming traps.


The Arcanist seems quite interesting. The main classes I'm drawn to are the occult classes, Followed by the divine classes, But the full arcane casters seem quite interesting and I wanna try them too sometime.. Only ever played one full caster, My very first character ever was a cleric but I had no idea what I was doing and his wisdom was waaay too low...

Been meaning to try more full casters..


Merellin wrote:
Only ever played one full caster, My very first character ever was a cleric but I had no idea what I was doing and his wisdom was waaay too low...

A very common problem.... people look at the Cleric and see a generalist but in reality it needs to be built as a specialist. It can be confusing.


Arkham Joker wrote:
Merellin wrote:
Only ever played one full caster, My very first character ever was a cleric but I had no idea what I was doing and his wisdom was waaay too low...
A very common problem.... people look at the Cleric and see a generalist but in reality it needs to be built as a specialist. It can be confusing.

It was my first character ever, I had no idea what I was doing, all I knew was that I had heard that every party needed a cleric.. xD I ended up building a cleric wioth high strength, And too low wisdom and later when I knew more about how the game worked I realised that if I put every ability score increase into wisdom, I might have enough for 9th level spells at level 20.. xD

That was 5 years ago so I know a bit more about the game now. =)

Silver Crusade

By the time you get 9th lvl spells, presumably you should have a +6 Wisdom headband.

IMHO, a potential melee character would want to use a reach weapon, hanging back and letting the enemy move in. As others have pointed out, you can't count on the other PCs for support. If it were me, I'd make a high-strength human or half-orc Speaker for the Past Shaman, with the Battle Spirit.

Suggested stats:

Str 16+2
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

Inital feat(s): Combat Reflexes, Toughness if Human

If you put maximum ranks into Diplomacy, you can be OK at it, even with 8 Cha. The Speaker for the Past archetype adds Heroism to you spell list, so that helps, and you can also buy a Circlet of Persuasion at some point. The Shaman list has a full range of healing spells for dealing with conditions. I wouldn't try to cover dealing with locks and traps, however.

Note that this build has a lot of moving parts, so it's not good if you suffer from option paralysis.


Beer


Bear in mind: reach builds that count on delivering multiple AoOs through Combat Reflexes are counting on two things: first, that monsters/foes are moving through threatened squares within your reach or otherwise provoking AoOs close to you in the first place, and second, that your other PCs aren't consistently beating your initiative and rushing up into melee, thus stopping monsters/foes from moving and provoking.

Until you make it to the Combat Patrol feat, hopefully augmented by some feat or effect that extends your Reach even further, just standing and waiting for foes to come to you can be a niche strategy. Enemies may move outside your threatened area, if they're intelligent. They may also have some kind of Ranged attack and since you're not moving you make a tempting target. Still, again, your party might beat your initiative and move past you, halting the movement of your enemies and negating your multiple AoO situation.

The one thing a Reach weapon is handy for is setting up Flanking. While you remain at 10' from an enemy who in turn doesn't have reach, you can move and circle with a bit more room and freedom, without fear of an AoO, giving you the chance to circle around a foe and Flank with an ally.

Grand Lodge

Mark Hoover, I agree with your points, but his group lacks melee, so standing in front readying an attack + AOO seems like a solid strategy. If you combine it with intimidate to frightened condition on a hit (my antipaladin proposal) - then you can hit them with a aoo when they run away as well.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / What would you add to this party? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice