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Okay, so anyone who has played 1e will tell you that, in general, the ‘clothiers’ (those that don’t start out with proficiency in armor) generally don’t ‘play the AC game.’ In other words, they just accepted their low AC and stood in the back and tried not to get hit. But now with the new rules that a crit is AC+10, that isn’t really an option. Let’s face it, at higher levels, if you didn’t invest much in AC, you could be down by a lot. Considering you get unarmored expertise by around the time enemy monsters get master attack, that’s really bad.
So I looked into making some clothes, but the only way Incan get their AC to the level where an enemy’s natural 2 doesn’t crit them ‘maybe hyperbole but not by much) is to take the sentinel or Paladin archetype. But that locks you in to those archetypes for at least 3 feats. So if you want to be say, a Kobold sorc dragon disciple, my choices are: get crit all the live long day, or delay dragon disciple at least until level 8
I dunno, am I overthinking this? Is there an easy way to get clothies into some sort of armor so they don’t die immediately to an archery barrage? Anyone out there figured this out?
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Well, by level 7 (earlier if human) you can get armor proficiency via general feats. Or by taking a rogue archetype, for example. And not having the strength for your armor is generally only a fairly minor inconvenience.
Depending on what type of caster, there are things like mirror image, mage armor, etc to help.
And, depending on the group, standing at the back can still help a lot. Most GM's won't go out of their way to have the bad guys come to you, at least not until you piss them off by fireballing them :-).
But yeah, the "typical" spell caster will have decent dex and con as well as their casting stat. If you start with an ancestry that dumps a stat you don't care about you can start with something like +4 casting stat, +3 dex, +1 con, +1 wis. Toss in mage armor and you're only slightly down from everybody else not in plate armor and not a monk. Acting like a squishy on top of that is generally sufficient.
Its one reason that druids, warpriests battle oracles etc are quite popular. They trade off some offensive power and utility for significantly better defences.
In PFS or a game that allows lots of downtime starting as a warpriest and then retraining into a cloistered cleric at level 7 is hugely attractive. You get 2 general feats, stat bumps, etc.
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General Feat, armor proficiency for light armor, there, max AC possible until lvl 13, at lvl 15 you can max your AC unarmored.
Yes and no. I mean, casters with only unarmored proficiency are obviously going to have low AC, but it isn't as drastic as it seems. The rule of thumb for armor is that it should generally add +5 AC when factored in with your Dex bonus (unless you're rocking out heavy armor to get that +6, but that's not our focus).
This means that the average level 1 character will have 18 AC (10 + proficiency (+3) + armor/Dex (+5)). A level 1 unarmored caster then would have between 12 and 16 AC depending on their Dex (between 8 Dex and 16 Dex). I usually see a lot of 15 AC casters at my tables, which is obviously low, but not unexpectedly so. One solution is to obviously use mage armor, but I can see why many people wouldn't be interested in that. Shield gets used more often, but the focus should be using that for the damage reduction rather than the +1 AC since a normal shield does the job better.
But really, it's just the same as PF1. Stay away from threats. Your AC is lower, but not dramatically so. You're squishier and your health pool and AC reflect that, but the rest of your party should be working to stop threats from reaching you anyway. Not to mention that you'll likely be contributing to your own safety (either through battlefield control, debuffs, self-buffs, or just outright killing the enemy before they pose a threat to you).
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Personally this is why I consider Dexterity an extremely high value stat for a caster. Even a critical fail on a reflex save by a caster is devastating given their lower number of hit points.
The main way I keep AC high enough not to be easily critted is keep Dex high, get bracers or a rune on my robes, and stay away from the battle. Sometimes I use invisibility.
You don't want to be taking hits as a cloth user. You want to make sure Dex and Con are strong. Stay away from the battle.
So I looked into making some clothes, but the only way Incan get their AC to the level where an enemy’s natural 2 doesn’t crit them ‘maybe hyperbole but not by much)
Hmm... Checking how much of this is actually hyperbole.
So Wizard in various stripes vs typical Ranger vs typical heavy armor Champion. I'm also using the Automatic Bonus Progression for building these example characters rather than decking them out with runes.
For the 'at high levels', lets go with level 12. Since you are wanting to take Dragon Disciple at level 8 at the latest (preferably earlier).
So at level 12, that means defense potency (or rune) bonus of +2.
If Wizard dumps DEX and has a +0: Expected AC = 10 + 12(level) + 2(proficiency) + 0(DEX) + 2(potency) = 26
Wizard with Only one DEX boost at each of level 1, 5, 10: Expected AC = 10 + 12(level) + 2(proficiency) + 3(DEX) + 2(potency) = 29
Wizard with level 1 DEX at +2 and another boost at 5 and 10 will be two points higher, so 31.
Wizard with the +3 DEX and 4th level Mage Armor instead of Automatic Bonus Progression: AC = 10 + 12(level) +2(proficiency) + 3(DEX) + 2(item) = 29 - so exactly the same as with ABP instead.
vs.
Ranger with +3 dex and therefore studded leather: Expected AC = 10 + 12(level) + 4(proficiency) + 2(item) + 3(DEX) + 2(potency) = 33
Champion with +1 dex and half plate: Expected AC = 10 + 12(level) + 4(proficiency) + 5(item) + 1(DEX) + 2(potency) = 34
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So my answer is to be sure to buff DEX at level 1 by a noticeable amount. That will put you only 3 point behind a Champion in heavy armor and only 2 points behind anyone in light or medium armor.
If instead you don't put more than one boost into DEX at 1st level, then you are going to be 3 to 4 points behind.
And I don't recommend putting nothing or next to nothing into DEX. Unless you also put feats and/or archetypes into getting medium armor.
And I am sure I have made a math mistake in here somewhere. But the conclusions match with what I have been hearing on these forums and have experienced in my own games.
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For the Wizard or Witch, picking up Alchemist MC is pretty easy. Being able to make a daily supply of Drakeheart mutagen is a nice option.
I can confirm that a 10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 CON sorcerer is really bad, even by my standards. Swipe left.
However, my 10 STR, 14 DEX, 10 CON sorcerer has made it to Level 8 in PFS, and doesn't feel nearly as fragile. I bumped DEX at Level 5 but not CON, soon realized that was a mistake, and had to take Toughness as my Level 7 General Feat because too many monsters were threatening to 1-shot me at those levels. Will bump both DEX and CON at Level 10 for sure (if I survive hehe).
I can confirm that a 10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 CON sorcerer is really bad, even by my standards. Swipe left.
However, my 10 STR, 14 DEX, 10 CON sorcerer has made it to Level 8 in PFS, and doesn't feel nearly as fragile. I bumped DEX at Level 5 but not CON, soon realized that was a mistake, and had to take Toughness as my Level 7 General Feat because too many monsters were threatening to 1-shot me at those levels. Will bump both DEX and CON at Level 10 for sure (if I survive hehe).
My sorcerer priority is Cha, Con=Dex, Wis, Str, Int.
I wouldn't necessarily put Cleric in the same rut because of the 8 h.p. and ability to Heal oneself, but I agree that the 6 h.p. classes are vulnerable enough one has to take extra steps to protect them which might hinder the PC's concept by using General Feats or one's Dedication, or even determining one's Ancestry despite other wishes.
In many games (like PFS, a "normal" difficulty campaign) if you have a lot of inside/corridor-centered combat vs. humanoids, then having a front line will suffice most of the time. But yeah, you start heading outside where the archers, flankers, and flyers are, perhaps in a tougher game (like the early APs) with frequent Trampling, AoEs, and focused fire, then I would avoid playing a 6 h.p. class! I too find them so squishy I'd feel my PC had little agency, always have to take the most defensive option where another PC might be able to contribute more.
That said:
Shield Cantrip. It's key, and if a Primal Sorcerer it's best to find a way to get hold of it. (Druids get Shield Block so it's less an issue.)
When to use it to absorb damage depends on how many more swings one expects to endure and if you're going to afford the action cost later. That +1 to AC reduces damage to you by about 1/7 per swing. And yes, getting a shield to carry (+2) can be worthwhile until one needs hands free for magic items.
Reach Spell. Lots of early spells have 30' range and you don't want squishy within one Stride of baddies, especially bosses. Pair this with favoring spells with longer range, so if you can't get Reach Spell maybe take Ray of Frost over Electric Arc since the latter puts you at risk.
(Though I'd recommend both!)
Dex AND Con. This is unfortunate if you have other plans with your PC's stats, but I'd say either 16/12, 14/14, or 12/16 at minimum for these two. The low AC compounded w/ low h.p. is like a force multiplier for your enemies so you have patch up both holes AND the poor Saves of these classes for when the AoEs hit despite your front line.
Canny Acumen & Toughness are pretty valuable IMO, not that they're enough to make you comfortable, but they help patch up deeper holes.
Friends. Sure, allies might talk about sticking in front of you, but what about when they need to skirmish or chase down the opposing squishy leader? If they're the bulk of your defense that limits a lot of party options in theory, while in practice it might just leave you naked.
Friends on the other hand might be built to work in tandem with you. They might not have to chase down the squishy because you've made a point of addressing that party need. They might stay and give you soft cover from the ranged attacks since you have have enough offense to deal with them if protected. Or they might not need to skirmish because of your support abilities (AC boosts & healing perhaps). And so forth.
Friends II. As well as working in sync so you can stay a tight unit, one might check if there's a Champion in the party who can mitigate damage for their allies (though some others can do this too if built for it, like a shield Fighter). They can boost your ability to survive a lot, so maybe you can go Primal Sorcerer instead of Druid or not armor up.
There's a large difference between a vanilla Barbarian or Ranger (w/o shield) holding the front line and a Champion or dedicated defender.
And think about using that extra slot per level (Wizard or Sorcerer) for defense. Even if they have a short duration, defensive spells can be significant. Hopefully you'll have enough scouting & foreknowledge to prep before busting down the boss's door, so there's another factor to consider about one's party.
And terrain. Don't forget to use terrain.
Put (or create) difficult terrain between yourself and the melee enemies. Move behind cover - even if it is cover from your allies. Take Cover if needed.
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Spellcasters are intended to lean into the thing that is actually their entire theme (casting spells) for defence. They actually have much stronger defences than martials if played the right way, because they can straight up prevent the enemy from attacking at all, and most of their defensive spells have the versatility of being used on allies if the caster isn't the one being attacked.
A +1 to AC on your character is great, but a +1 to AC on a character of your choice is better, and making AC irrelevant because your enemy can't reach you or can't attack at all is even better.
Most of the defensive spells also have the advantage of stacking on top of your armour, either by being a status bonus to AC, or being something like mirror image which filters out a lot of the attacks that get past your AC.
Spells also have the advantage that for some classes, that +1 to AC can be a fireball instead if you don't need it (by using that slot for a different spell).
Martials DO get the benefit of not having to do anything to get their defences, but they sacrifice a lot of versatility for that, and their AC is still inferior to things like levitate or fly or charm that straight up prevent attacks from happening, or force enemies to use backup options that just aren't as good.
Trying to make your AC as high as that of a martial is the absolute weakest way to go about keeping a spellcaster alive, and is kind of missing the point of being a spellcaster.
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Well, after looking around, I'm thinking about a Wyrmblessed sorcerer. Because Wyrmblessed counts as the draconic bloodline, I can get Dragon Disciple at 2, and then get scales of the dragon at 4. That way I only need 14 dex. Because Wyrmblessed gives me mage armor, my AC starts off at 16 (18 if I raise a shield) and then at level 4 it jumps from 19 to 21 (and I ditch the shield because it doesn't do me any good.)
At some point I 'll have to transition from mage armor spells to actual traveler's clothes, probably around level 8, but at least that is basically a +5 armor (2 dex and basically a permanently raised shield, and +1 item bonus to armor.) Not fantastic, but survivable I think. Thanks everyone for your input.
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That said:
Shield Cantrip. It's key, and if a Primal Sorcerer it's best to find a way to get hold of it. (Druids get Shield Block so it's less an issue.)
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A few options. ;)
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Also from a GM's point of view I like the disparity between casters and front liners.
Smart mobile ennemies can really capitalise on that by having priority targets on the back line and it's a tactical way to differentiate them from dumb ennemies.
As an exemple: an equal difficulty encounter, one is a cavalry patrol lead by an archer and a cleric, the other is a bunch of spiders.
The spiders are easily dispatched by the PC's as they form a line and hold it there and the casters lay out debuffs and damage without ever being targeted and healing the wounded party members from safety.
The cavalry force runs circles around the slower armored front line and keep shooting potshots at the healer and the other casters in the back, if they do get caught out, their cleric heals them and they immediately attempt to disengage with their horse before resuming the harrying.
Both of these give equal exp, but one is much deadlier and more challenging than the other. If all the casters had similar defenses to frontliners, this kind of fun differentiation wouldn't be there.
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I like the fact that there is a variety of different ways to approach getting a decent AC that might suit your character's theme, and then also the option of just embracing having a lower AC and trying to play hard to get with tactics and spells.
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Well, your worry clearly is coming from a lack of experience.
First, unless you really neglect your AC (as in having 8 dex and no effort in increasing your AC by any means), then while very low, casters AC is still relevant, even if they receive crits more frequently.
Second, against higher level enemies, even front-liners will be getting crit quite often, so this means that theoretically, casters are really going to have a bad time against them, BUT, the game isn't played in a white room scenario, so odds are, spellcasters won't be the primary targets at all, even if the system allows for greater mobility.
Another interesting thing is that AC isn't the only source of protection, specially since the tools that were used defensively for them are still present in the game, namely concealment and battlefield control.
As a personal anecdote, our party in Age of Ashes had a Necromancy Wizard and we joked that after level 5 he could be a tank, given the amount of self-healing he could have in a single round. In fact, in one of our toughest battles (the boss encounter AND another encounter at the same time) against a really powerful spellcaster, our wizard was the only one left standing with meager 19 HP. He was an elf, btw, which is the lower end of the HP spectrum.
Casters have many problems, but I will go out on a limb and say that AC isn't one of them.
Necromancer rocks.
I'd like to play one, soon or later.
While they still don't deliver on the "hoard of undead" fantasy, there's plenty of new stuff to enjoy, great sustainability in combat is definitely one of them.
Our Wizard player had some great highlights throughout Age of Ashes, getting to tank a few solid hits in our toughest combats was pretty nice to see. I didn't expect them to be so resistant (on one of his best rolls he healed 40+ HP in one round).
Trying to make your AC as high as that of a martial is the absolute weakest way to go about keeping a spellcaster alive, and is kind of missing the point of being a spellcaster.
As written, I agree. You don't want to aim for martial-level AC, that's foolishness.
But there's bad AC and there's terrible AC, and getting from terrible to bad is worth some effort (and, IMO/IME, essential to the survivability of a character). 10 DEX and no armor gives AC 13 at Level 1 - a Moderate-level attack from a Level -1 creature (+6) is going to have a 17-20 crit range against you. It's too weak, unless you're bending over backwards (or your team is) to avoid bumping the precariously balanced porcelain vase.
Having AC 16 vs AC 13 doesn't help much with boss fights (with the big guns Striking at +10 or so), but it bumps character death rarity to "a distinct possibility in tough fights / Severe encounters" from "a distinct possibility in any fight / even in Low encounters".
get out of reach
Note that for angelic sorcerers, Angelic Halo requires you to be within 15' of those you're healing, so no scurrying out to 60' with Reach Spell.
my perspective is "stand in a place that takes 2 move actions to reach".
Sure, that first hit might crit and deal double damage, but the melee character standing near the enemy might eat two strike actions normally anyway, so it isn't that different.
Of course, the real problems rre "how to stand in a place that is far enough away" and "what do I do after they reach me?
The first problem has a variety of answers, and not all of them are just straight distance. Standing behind your front line so the enemy has to circle around, putting up barriers and rough terrain, flying so that even creatures with enough reach have to move directly under you, etc. There are many answers to this, and it depends on your part composition and your character options.
Now, the other problem can be more of a teamwork issue. You might be ok with that first hit that crits, but once they start getting in two hits (which might both crit)... then you are going down quick.
Ideally, everyone focus fires on the creature that made its way around, and it doesn't last long enough to take you out. But if the rest of the party doesn't do anything when the squishiest characters are being used as chew toys... you don't really have very many great options. You would have to look into AC, or into options that let you flee while still retaining enough ability to stay relevant.
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In my experience I always try to stay within 10-15ft of the frontliners, whenever I try to be clever and stay in the back, I get taken out by invisible lurkers or harriers and the fighters are 2 move actions away and don't want to bother coming over.
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Also being undersold here is how many spells can make attacking a caster annoying enough not to bother with. Shatter Gem, Blink, Blur, blood vendetta, invisibility, mirror image, stone skin, stinking cloud +air bubble, fire shield...there are just a ton of spells that make attacking a caster more complicated than just an AC score.
Attacking a caster who has false life up, shatter gem, and Blur going is such a pain, many monsters will think twice about wanting to do it again, especially when they get hit with a vampiric touch or 3 1 action harm spells when they end their turn there.
In my experience I always try to stay within 10-15ft of the frontliners, whenever I try to be clever and stay in the back, I get taken out by invisible lurkers or harriers and the fighters are 2 move actions away and don't want to bother coming over.
I know that feeling. My monk once got eaten alive by a spider swarm because an enemy knocked him out across the map from the party. He then dumped my monk into a nearby cave with the swarm. The party was unwilling to spend their precious actions to come save me and, though I managed to stabilize on my own, they then opted to spend 10 minutes healing each other rather than enter an unknown cave system to save me from the cave spiders.
In my experience I always try to stay within 10-15ft of the frontliners, whenever I try to be clever and stay in the back, I get taken out by invisible lurkers or harriers and the fighters are 2 move actions away and don't want to bother coming over.
Yeah, the best place is "one move action for allies to reach, and two move actions for enemies to reach."
Having a reach fighter sitting around is great since enemies would often prefer to waste an action to avoid the hit, which means they waste time circling.
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In my experience I always try to stay within 10-15ft of the frontliners, whenever I try to be clever and stay in the back, I get taken out by invisible lurkers or harriers and the fighters are 2 move actions away and don't want to bother coming over.I know that feeling. My monk once got eaten alive by a spider swarm because an enemy knocked him out across the map from the party.
Why were you across the map from the party?
Out of curiosity, I put together a few tables for AC options for wizards.
The last table compares all of the options to each other. I was honestly surprised at how well Drakeheart Mutagen performed even with delayed progression for Alchemy MC.
(Note: For simplicity I assumed that all of these options were feasible at level 1.)
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Well, after looking around, I'm thinking about a Wyrmblessed sorcerer. Because Wyrmblessed counts as the draconic bloodline, I can get Dragon Disciple at 2, and then get scales of the dragon at 4. That way I only need 14 dex. Because Wyrmblessed gives me mage armor, my AC starts off at 16 (18 if I raise a shield) and then at level 4 it jumps from 19 to 21 (and I ditch the shield because it doesn't do me any good.)
At some point I 'll have to transition from mage armor spells to actual traveler's clothes, probably around level 8, but at least that is basically a +5 armor (2 dex and basically a permanently raised shield, and +1 item bonus to armor.) Not fantastic, but survivable I think. Thanks everyone for your input.
Wouldn't recommend Scales for your AC, it caps at +4 as opposed to everything else aside from Padded Armor which caps at +5, and costs you a class feat. Besides... what other stats do you want on a sorcerer? If you're not boosting Dex with one of your 4 boosts, you're boosting Str or Int - neither of which are particularly useful. And Dex adds to saves as well.
I'd suggest Armor Training at level 3 as a general feat, wear light armor until level 13 then retrain it and transfer the runes to explorer's clothing. Even if you started with 14 dex, you'd have 18 by level 13 - equivalent AC to scales. If you start with 16, you'll have 20 by level 15 - maxing out your AC for a cloth caster.
Also scales is status and a shield is circumstance so they stack, you don't need to ditch the shield.
I'd also suggest grabbing one of the Piercing dragons for Wyrmblessed, so you can use Dragon Claws to give you a decent chunk of piercing resist (the most common damage type for monsters).
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Also scales is status and a shield is circumstance so they stack, you don't need to ditch the shield.
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I suspect that the scales will be changed from a status bonus to an item bonus when they update the APG. They did the same to Mountain Stance when they updated the CRB. Otherwise those status bonuses stack with the item bonuses from Drakeheart Mutagen to give insanely high ACs.
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I suspect that the scales will be changed from a status bonus to an item bonus when they update the APG. They did the same to Mountain Stance when they updated the CRB. Otherwise those status bonuses stack with the item bonuses from Drakeheart Mutagen to give insanely high ACs....
Also scales is status and a shield is circumstance so they stack, you don't need to ditch the shield.
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Yep I already asked Mark about that before Mountain even got errata’d.
Scales was based on Mountain Stance and is probably going to get errata’d to an item bonus in the same way as mountain stance and animal skin when the APG gets errata. Due to strange interactions with Animal Skin, changed Mountain Stance, Battleforms and Drakeheart Mutagen.Shield should work no matter what though - it’s a circumstance bonus not an item bonus.
Yes, there's no problem with scales+shield. But it's probably best to avoid builds that depend on scales staying as status.
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Also being undersold here is how many spells can make attacking a caster annoying enough not to bother with. Shatter Gem, Blink, Blur, blood vendetta, invisibility, mirror image, stone skin, stinking cloud +air bubble, fire shield...there are just a ton of spells that make attacking a caster more complicated than just an AC score.
Attacking a caster who has false life up, shatter gem, and Blur going is such a pain, many monsters will think twice about wanting to do it again, especially when they get hit with a vampiric touch or 3 1 action harm spells when they end their turn there.
While you are not wrong I nonetheless want to point out that pre-buffing seems mostly dead even if exceptions like False Life do exist and buffing yourself defensively in combat can potentially eat a lot of ressources (spells and actions) for perhaps only a vague gain, i.e. unless you know that it is definitely you, who will be attacked next. More often than not you would be hard pressed to justify a defensive spell on your (hopefully second line) caster - assuming that you can act before any bad things happen - when you could also use AoE (e.g. Fireball on multiple foes) or a strong debuff (e.g. Slow on a single foe). This is why people are looking into improving their passive defenses first.
Clothies are basically playing the same AC game as anybody else, namely the soft AC cap game. Where Light and Unarmored have same cap as Medium, only Heavy being +1 ahead for a given proficiency tier, and Casters not hugely differentiated in AC proficiency from most martials who are not "defensive". The real differentiation is in HP and Saves (and Armor Specialization Resistance for the lucky few), as well as the "secret" benefit of Medium and Heavy being Fortification Runes (Crit Negation) and not AC as such.
Unarmored does have harder time reaching it's AC cap (especially for non-DEX classes who miss a boost), but it's trivial to spend one General Feat for Light Armor Training and every DEX based Caster should consider it unless you're happy holding yourself back. Or they can aim for heavier armors and perhaps some STR to support it - in the long term you need less STR for Heavy Armor than you need DEX for Unarmored build, although long term considerations usually are less of an issue than early game considerations. That route often ends up using Class Feats (Champion/Sentinel) but especially Humans can get by fine with General Feats at least up to mid game... Although even there, I think -1 AC (vs Unarmored) at 15th level is worth getting Fortification (and Grt Fortification), even if most would be looking for the +2 proficiency boost on top of that.
So I think the confusion is in thinking they are really that different or heavily distinguished by AC value. They have different bias to armor types built in, but that is a build trade off (stat allocation vs feats).
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Or they can aim for heavier armors and perhaps some STR to support it - in the long term you need less STR for Heavy Armor than you need DEX for Unarmored build, although long term considerations usually are less of an issue than early game considerations.
Breastplate + Fortification requires STR18 and Full Plate + Fortification requires STR20 in order to not incur any additional penalties, which means that high level there is not much difference in between STR and DEX requirements for the +5 (or +6) AC Bonus.
While you are not wrong I nonetheless want to point out that pre-buffing seems mostly dead even if exceptions like False Life do exist and buffing yourself defensively in combat can potentially eat a lot of ressources (spells and actions) for perhaps only a vague gain, i.e. unless you know that it is definitely you, who will be attacked next. More often than not you would be hard pressed to justify a defensive spell on your (hopefully second line) caster - assuming that you can act before any bad things happen - when you could also use AoE (e.g. Fireball on multiple foes) or a strong debuff (e.g. Slow on a single foe). This is why people are looking into improving their passive defenses first.Also being undersold here is how many spells can make attacking a caster annoying enough not to bother with. Shatter Gem, Blink, Blur, blood vendetta, invisibility, mirror image, stone skin, stinking cloud +air bubble, fire shield...there are just a ton of spells that make attacking a caster more complicated than just an AC score.
Attacking a caster who has false life up, shatter gem, and Blur going is such a pain, many monsters will think twice about wanting to do it again, especially when they get hit with a vampiric touch or 3 1 action harm spells when they end their turn there.
I understand that it is all really a question of play style and table expectations. If investing a lot of your wealth and feat resources into passive defenses makes sense for you, go for it. But False life alone is usually enough to cover an emergency moment and battle forms can meet what a lot of these multiple feat build choices give you, even at spell levels significantly lower than top level.
All I am saying is that casters that look like easy targets, but are not is fairly viable in PF2 as well because other mitigating factors than AC play a huge role in survivability in PF2. Some times just having a champion and an MC champion in the party is enough to make a caster want to get attacked in all but the bossiest of boss fights.
When it comes to caster AC, I just assume they'll be crit on the first attack of any boss or once or twice a turn if a group gets focused them. Rather than trying to boost AC, your best defense is bleeding away enemy actions with spells like slow (bad, 3rd level, fort save, single target) or illusory object (good, 1st level, minimum 1 action lost to disbelieving, can also break LoS, AoE) or else casting invisibility on yourself and buffing, healing or controlling (and then ask your gm if illusory object is hostile) while enjoying the automatic 50/50 dodge against most enemies.
While you are not wrong I nonetheless want to point out that pre-buffing seems mostly dead even if exceptions like False Life do exist and buffing yourself defensively in combat can potentially eat a lot of ressources (spells and actions) for perhaps only a vague gain, i.e. unless you know that it is definitely you, who will be attacked next. More often than not you would be hard pressed to justify a defensive spell on your (hopefully second line) caster - assuming that you can act before any bad things happen - when you could also use AoE (e.g. Fireball on multiple foes) or a strong debuff (e.g. Slow on a single foe). This is why people are looking into improving their passive defenses first.Also being undersold here is how many spells can make attacking a caster annoying enough not to bother with. Shatter Gem, Blink, Blur, blood vendetta, invisibility, mirror image, stone skin, stinking cloud +air bubble, fire shield...there are just a ton of spells that make attacking a caster more complicated than just an AC score.
Attacking a caster who has false life up, shatter gem, and Blur going is such a pain, many monsters will think twice about wanting to do it again, especially when they get hit with a vampiric touch or 3 1 action harm spells when they end their turn there.
I understand that it is all really a question of play style and table expectations. If investing a lot of your wealth and feat resources into passive defenses makes sense for you, go for it. But False life alone is usually enough to cover an emergency moment and battle forms can meet what a lot of these multiple feat build choices give you, even at spell levels significantly lower than top level.
All I am saying is that casters that look like easy targets, but are not is fairly viable in PF2 as well because other mitigating factors than AC play a huge role in survivability in PF2. Some times just having a champion and an MC champion in the party is enough to make a caster want to get attacked in all but the bossiest of boss fights.
Indeed. Some of the combos work really well even in games where not much buff time is given. Long term buffs, like false life, can be cast well before a battle, and renewed in between encounters. Other combos, like stinking cloud and air bubble, can be accomplished in a single turn DURING combat, with an action left over.
For example, let's say an enemy runs up to you unexpectedly and hits you. If you don't do something fast, on the next round, they're going to totally wreck you. The temp hit points from false life absorb the first hit, you unleash blood vendetta as a reaction to let them know attacking you is a VERY bad idea, then on your turn you cast vampiric touch to wreck your foe and replenish those temporary hit points before moving away. You don't even have to hurt the enemy too much; just enough to deter their attacking you again. The temporary hit points themselves only need to get you through a round or two, while your allies catch up with you.
You could have followed up with any number of other defensive or offensive spells. Either way, you will either deter the enemy from wanting to stay in prolonged contact with you, or simply weather their assault long enough for your allies to catch on and pummel them.
Well, after looking around, I'm thinking about a Wyrmblessed sorcerer. Because Wyrmblessed counts as the draconic bloodline, I can get Dragon Disciple at 2, and then get scales of the dragon at 4. That way I only need 14 dex. Because Wyrmblessed gives me mage armor, my AC starts off at 16 (18 if I raise a shield) and then at level 4 it jumps from 19 to 21 (and I ditch the shield because it doesn't do me any good.)
At some point I 'll have to transition from mage armor spells to actual traveler's clothes, probably around level 8, but at least that is basically a +5 armor (2 dex and basically a permanently raised shield, and +1 item bonus to armor.) Not fantastic, but survivable I think. Thanks everyone for your input.
Wouldn't recommend Scales for your AC, it caps at +4 as opposed to everything else aside from Padded Armor which caps at +5, and costs you a class feat. Besides... what other stats do you want on a sorcerer? If you're not boosting Dex with one of your 4 boosts, you're boosting Str or Int - neither of which are particularly useful. And Dex adds to saves as well.
I'd suggest Armor Training at level 3 as a general feat, wear light armor until level 13 then retrain it and transfer the runes to explorer's clothing. Even if you started with 14 dex, you'd have 18 by level 13 - equivalent AC to scales. If you start with 16, you'll have 20 by level 15 - maxing out your AC for a cloth caster.
Also scales is status and a shield is circumstance so they stack, you don't need to ditch the shield.
I'd also suggest grabbing one of the Piercing dragons for Wyrmblessed, so you can use Dragon Claws to give you a decent chunk of piercing resist (the most common damage type for monsters).
The only reason* for a sorcerer to pick up dragon disciple is if they want to do strength melee, so I imagine they probably do want strength. On the other hand, the sentinel dedication lets you get better armor on a strength character for the cost of a lower level feat. But it may not be practical on certain builds.
Edit:* Well,the only mechanical reason. You could also just like the flavor, but the archetype doesn't really offer much to a sorcerer outside of stronger claws, the inherent AC, and more dragon form.
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One thing I have to quibble with is a lot of the suggestions in this thread are aimed at medium or even high levels when burning slots defensively is easier to pull off. Even light armor is level 3 at the earliest unless you're human or take rogue dedication.
At low levels your survivability is going to be a problem and there are some bog-standard enemies (like goblin warriors and their shortbows) that can absolutely tear you apart if you aren't careful and sometimes even if you are.
IMO, pretty much imperative to try to find ways to boost your Dex and preferrably Con during chargen. 14 Dex unarmored still lags behind everyone else, but it helps provide a bit of a safety net when you really don't have a lot of other options.
One thing I have to quibble with is a lot of the suggestions in this thread are aimed at medium or even high levels when burning slots defensively is easier to pull off. Even light armor is level 3 at the earliest unless you're human or take rogue dedication.
At low levels your survivability is going to be a problem and there are some bog-standard enemies (like goblin warriors and their shortbows) that can absolutely tear you apart if you aren't careful and sometimes even if you are.
IMO, pretty much imperative to try to find ways to boost your Dex and preferrably Con during chargen. 14 Dex unarmored still lags behind everyone else, but it helps provide a bit of a safety net when you really don't have a lot of other options.
Yes to be practical builds have to be playable from level 1. But you just can't get a lot of interesting combination together till you have a few levels.
Lets not forget Plate Armor is a level 2 item. so they aren't the only ones with this problem.
It is a bit sad putting 16 Dex on almost every caster and taking it to 18 at level 5, but that is sort of what the system leads itself to.
Short of Multiclass Elf at level 1, an Archetype at level 2, or armour proficiency at level 3 from a general feat (humans from level 1) what can you do?
Yes that is a bit, but I think you just have to accept it initially at levels 1 and 2, and play tactically. If a GM is going to agressively target the second rank of characters from the get go, its just very harsh. I think your problem is your GM.
The only reason* for a sorcerer to pick up dragon disciple is if they want to do strength melee, so I imagine they probably do want strength. On the other hand, the sentinel dedication lets you get better armor on a strength character for the cost of a lower level feat. But it may not be practical on certain builds.
Edit:* Well,the only mechanical reason. You could also just like the flavor, but the archetype doesn't really offer much to a sorcerer outside of stronger claws, the inherent AC, and more dragon form.
There's another mechanical reason. If you're a Wyrmblessed bloodline Sorcerer then the Dragon Claws feat can buff your resistance to Piercing (Crystal or Forest dragon) or Bludgeoning (Sea) by 5, which can make you very tanky versus a lot of physical enemies for a 1-action focus spell. The claws are probably still not worth using offensively, but defensively they're quite potent.
