Tiny creatures question.

[KenkuKen]

Hi,

I read that four tiny creatures can occupy a five foot square. Does
that number hold true if there is a medium sized creature in the same square
that the tiny creatures are attacking? Or would the number of tiny creatures
be limited to less than four?

Thanks

[*Thelith]

I can't find any specific RAW ruling.
I would rule that only half(50%) of what could normally fit in a square can fit at the same time.

So for tiny that would be two(2).
And for diminutive 12.
And for fine 50.

[TxSam88]

RAW Tiny creatures take up a 2.5 x 2.5 square, so 4 in a 5' square.

https://www.aonsrd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=133

[TxSam88]

A medium creature takes the whole 5x5 square, so no tiny creatures in the same square.

[Azothath]

The rules are written for a generic player character so RAW makes some common assumptions; generally a medium creature occupies a square (a PC).

see Combat, Moving Through a Square, "Very Small Creature - A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so." AoN link

later in the same section
Combat, Big and Little Creatures in Combat, "Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures - Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy." AoN link

If you make up a rule IN a RULES thread and someone posts the actual RAW... well...

[KenkuKen]

So would you agree with Thelith's ruling: only allowing
half the normal number of creatures in the square?

[Trokarr]

Keep in mind that a square in pathfinder is actually a 5 by 5 by 5 cube meaning that if some of the creatures were flying or by some other means stack on top of one another you could fit 8 tiny creatures in that cube. If they were in effect squeezing you could double that number.

[Trokarr]

Realistically how many cats could you fit in a 5 by 5 room? Dozens probably though they sure wouldn’t be happy about it.

[Trokarr]

Per the swarm rules a 10 by 10 swarm of non-flying tiny creatures is at least 300 creatures which means approximately 75 creatures per square. A swarm of flying tiny creatures is 1000 creatures or approximately 250 creatures per square. So a lot more than 4.

[Azothath]

Trokarr wrote:

Per the swarm rules a 10 by 10 swarm of non-flying tiny creatures is at least 300 creatures which means approximately 75 creatures per square. A swarm of flying tiny creatures is 1000 creatures or approximately 250 creatures per square. So a lot more than 4.

That's a specific exception for swarms to the general rule. So you can not expand it to a general ruling. You don't want 4 reduce person halflings/ratlings claiming they are a swarm.

[VoodistMonk]

The rules do not say that the Medium creature being present reduces the number of Tiny creatures that can occupy the same square, so it doesn't.

There could be a Medium creature with four Tiny creatures harassing it in the same 5' × 5' cube, as per my understanding of the RAW on the matter.

Makes sense, too, especially when you see how many can actually fit in that space if swarms are considered. So a Tiny monster on each leg, one is scampering up your back, and another buzzing around your head. Seems legit. And it works per RAW.

No assumptions or mental math is actually necessary, you don't have to house rule anything... it can be played RAW, as-is, without issue.

[Trokarr]

By RAW a halfling mounted on a riding dog holding a tiny sized familiar can stand above a medium sized unconscious character and a swarm of bats can still enter the square. My point was that space stacking rules can be very fluid under certain conditions. A measure of common sense is needed sometimes.

[Trokarr]

A troop of up to 30 medium sized creatures can fit a 20 by 20 square. The halfling, riding dog, familiar, and unconscious person combo can fit in ever one of those squares and the swarm of bats can still enter the squares they occupy by RAW. However this seems pretty over the top.