Lingering Performance and Soothing Performance


Rules Questions


To my surprise, these two abilities haven't been mentioned, that I could find.

Normally, I would say that RAW lingering performance reduces the cost of Soothing Performance to 2 rounds of performance as the 2 rounds of lingering could cover the cost of the remainder.

Lingering Performance:
The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

But, Soothing Performance has a line mentioning "continuous performance" and it is unclear is Lingering Performance counts for this continuous performance or if continuous performance falls under the realm of "specific conditions" from Lingering Performance.

Soothing Performance:
A bard of 12th level or higher can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to the mass cure serious wounds, using the bard’s level as the caster level. In addition, this performance removes the fatigued, sickened, and shaken condition from all those affected. Using this ability requires 4 rounds of continuous performance, and the targets must be able to see and hear the bard throughout the performance. Soothing performance relies on audible and visual components.

My personal take is that this combo shouldn't turn a mass serious wounds+ into an even better alternative healing method and make Lingering Performance into an even more must have feat, but I'm just unsure as to the RAW.


I couldn't see an FAQ either.

I guess my take is that you could spend 2 rounds performing, then when you stop Lingering Performance would continue it for another 2 rounds for a total of 4 rounds, and that would get you your mass cure effect.

This is basically the same as how Lingering Performance works with every other performance - it saves you some daily resources - and it doesn't make this performance any more powerful.


Lingering performance specifies that bonuses and penalties from your performance continue after you cease performing. So it does not continue the performance, just the bonuses and penalties. Soothing performance takes 4 rounds of performance to start and its effects are instantaneous not continual. Therefor Lingering performance has no effect on soothing performance. It still requires 4 rounds to start and there are no bonuses or penalties to be continued.

Liberty's Edge

What Mysterious Stranger said.


Yeah I think they're probably right.

EDIT: Heh, the Beard Patrol strikes again!

Liberty's Edge

MrCharisma wrote:

Yeah I think they're probably right.

EDIT: Heh, the Beard Patrol strikes again!

LOL. Yes.


That does seem like a satisfactory explanation.

Though I do disagree that a mass cure serious, a 7th level spell and then some extra effects, is actually worth a lot. Getting it for half off would make it even more extreme. By later levels it's like getting a heal spell but divided out amongst 4-5 party members for 2 of your (by the time of level 12) 30+ rounds of performance that you never otherwise use all of.

Liberty's Edge

Great for topping up hit points. Especially if your group has animal companions, combat familiars, eidolons, and cohoorts.
As the number of people you cure increases, the utility increases.


AwesomenessDog wrote:

That does seem like a satisfactory explanation.

Though I do disagree that a mass cure serious, a 7th level spell and then some extra effects, is actually worth a lot. Getting it for half off would make it even more extreme. By later levels it's like getting a heal spell but divided out amongst 4-5 party members for 2 of your (by the time of level 12) 30+ rounds of performance that you never otherwise use all of.

This is a really confusing sentence. I'm not sure who or what you're disagreeing with. Are you saying this is too powerful or not powerful enough?

My take on this is that it's ok. Not something super exciting, but it'll see some use.

It's Terrible for in-combat healing because of the "casting-time". Out of combat it lets you turn excess daily class resources into heals, which basically saves you money on wands of CLW. Tracking wands is super un-fun - but also necessary - so spending Bardic Performance/Channels/etc is a totally fine workaround.

Will it save you some money? Sure.

Will it save you enough money to unbalance the game? Very doubtful.

It will mostly just allow the party to push slightly further when their resources are low, which is much more fun than setting up your Rope Trick or teleporting back to your base for the night.


I agree with Mysterious Stranger. Lingering Performance has no interaction with Soothing Performance.

Soothing Performance is good, but it's level 12... you should have plenty of rounds of Performance to use Soothing Performance any time you must. And you shouldn't be the main source of healing in or out of combat, anyways. Soothing Performance is similar to a lot of Masterpieces in operation, and its activation time has to be worked into any strategy for its effective use.

More often than not, combat will probably be over by the time you activate it, so using it in combat is almost impossible except for the most drawn out of engagements. And even then, the +9/+9 (or so) you can be handing out with Inspire Courage by this level is probably more useful than a handful of hit points, anyways...


I was trying to say it is powerful and just brain farted two phrases into one.

But not every group/AP/story can rely on CLW wand hoarding and spamming, and when you're out of combat, trading 4 rounds for a quarter to a third of everyone's hitpoints is really valuable. Sure, you're losing some +9/+9 inspire courage (though that requires heavy investment to get, and as part of that you got an extra 6 rounds of performance), but if everyone dies, you aren't going to be using it anyway.

Just because CLW wand spam is stupid cheap doesn't mean other class abilities aren't good. And in any case, if it only cost 2 rounds instead of 4, then it would really be amazing, which was more the minor point of my original statement.


I think it's alright, but it's not amazing.

Mass CSW is 3d8+12HP when you get this ability, which is only ~25.5HP on average. Sure that's ~1/4 the HP of the casters, but it's more like 1/5 or 1/6 of the front-line casters. My 12th level Bloodrager has 195HP while raging, so it's about 1/8 of his HP.

So if you have a decent front-liner in your party this will fully heal them in ~24 rounds, and will cost you the same number of rounds of performance. Regardless of how much you've pumped your Bardic Performance 24 rounds is a lot.

If they could use it at half-cost (as I mistakenly suggested in my first post) it would still take the same amount of time, but would only cost 12 rounds of Bardic Performance. This might mean you could fully heal the party more than once per day (or more than twice at high levels) but it's not going to be enough healing to cover the party anyway.

It's certainly not terrible - I'm not suggesting that - but it doesn't really add any options for the party. It can extend the adventuring day a little if you're low on supplies, and it saves you a bit of cash, but it's hardly game-breaking.

I like it. I think relying on CLW is one of the biggest flaws of this system, but this doesn't really solve that problem, it just puts a bandaid on it ... at level 12.


Soothing Performance really shines in situations where consumable resources are limited... it is not supposed to be relied on to provide repeated mass healing(s). But, it does allow the Cleric to saves a few Channels between fights... I got this one, buddy. Maybe those Channels are needed to fight Undead instead healing everyone. Situations demand different things at different times, having multiple ways to mass heal is almost essential to conserve party resources.

Being able to provide a somewhat effective mass healing is a big deal, especially when people are down to the last few charges on their last few wands of CLW, and are unknown levels deep into a megadungeon they were obviously not fully prepared for. Heal everyone with 4rnds of Performance versus dude burning at least 4 spell slots to heal the same people (and their pets) the same amount? Yes, please... I'll take it.

Is it going to heal everyone back to full health? Probably not. But it might mean a crit from an enemy greataxe only makes you unconscious... we can deal with that down here... we can't deal with dead right meow. It matters, and can matter A LOT.

Soothing Performance is actually one of the better things to abuse with an Arcane Healer-Giesha Bard VMC Monk. You just loop Ki Channel with the Tea of Transference and you essentially have infinite Bardic Performance, Channel, Ki, and spells. Lol.


Soothing Performance is a nice thing to have for exactly 1 level and then becomes incredibly powerful. At 12th you get Soothing, then at 13 you get Shadowbard as a spell. So for 1 5th level spell you get 3 Cure Serious effects. Combine that with an Extend Rod for a duration of 26 rounds and you have 6 of them for each casting

The Exchange

Tetsu Yama Takahashi wrote:
Soothing Performance is a nice thing to have for exactly 1 level and then becomes incredibly powerful. At 12th you get Soothing, then at 13 you get Shadowbard as a spell. So for 1 5th level spell you get 3 Cure Serious effects. Combine that with an Extend Rod for a duration of 26 rounds and you have 6 of them for each casting

Soothing Performance is a great thing to have for a bard 5/Pathfinder Chronicler 9. At 8th level the Pathfinder Chronicler gets the Greater Epic Tales ability. At the end of every day, make sure to scribe your unused rounds of bardic performance into books. Now you have multiple soothing performances that anyone can activate. And as a full-round action instead of four rounds.


Tetsu Yama Takahashi wrote:
Soothing Performance is a nice thing to have for exactly 1 level and then becomes incredibly powerful. At 12th you get Soothing, then at 13 you get Shadowbard as a spell. So for 1 5th level spell you get 3 Cure Serious effects. Combine that with an Extend Rod for a duration of 26 rounds and you have 6 of them for each casting

Am I the only one who thinks you could give everyone free healing out of fight (e.g. with fast healing that starts a couple rounds after the end of a combat), and it would imbalance absolutely nothing?

I honestly don't understand why people make a big deal out of outfight healing.


Derklord wrote:
Tetsu Yama Takahashi wrote:
Soothing Performance is a nice thing to have for exactly 1 level and then becomes incredibly powerful. At 12th you get Soothing, then at 13 you get Shadowbard as a spell. So for 1 5th level spell you get 3 Cure Serious effects. Combine that with an Extend Rod for a duration of 26 rounds and you have 6 of them for each casting

Am I the only one who thinks you could give everyone free healing out of fight (e.g. with fast healing that starts a couple rounds after the end of a combat), and it would imbalance absolutely nothing?

I honestly don't understand why people make a big deal out of outfight healing.

The problem is that (at least the earlier) APs were designed with not having almost unlimited out of combat healing in mind. And for those who still design the old 3e way, this is also how they check their "encounters/CR per day" allotment. All of that gets thrown out the window if every combat becomes a combat that has to on its own carry a risk of party death, because if you make a bunch of little encounters, then the party can just burn through a little hp on each one, knowing they will just heal to full on their own, and never use their expendable resources except on the really hard fights. Without said virtual infinite healing from super cheap effects (note that its a 5th level bard spell for the effects of 3 [i]mass[i] CSW spells and total exhaustion clearing), even if the party decides to not use that AC buff spell to not get hit as often, or attack buff/dmg spell to clear a fight faster, then they will still need to expend spells anyway to heal the accumulating damage from the weaker fights, lest they risk stumbling into a bigger fight and being much more easily wiped.

But if you only run one or two major encounters a day or otherwise buy into the 15 minute adventuring day (gross), and that's it, then sure, you won't notice any difference, because your party is already nova'ing for every fight anyway.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
then they will still need to expend spells anyway to heal the accumulating damage from the weaker fights, lest they risk stumbling into a bigger fight and being much more easily wiped.

...or they just heal up with wands afterwards.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
But if you only run one or two major encounters a day or otherwise buy into the 15 minute adventuring day (gross), and that's it, then sure, you won't notice any difference, because your party is already nova'ing for every fight anyway.

I think it's actually the other way around. "nova'ing" isn't done with low to mid level spells, and thus something that saves you those spell slots doesn't increase your ability to nova. Meanwhile, if the PCs can heal up for free after every fight, players are likely to be fine with more daily combats as resting because the HP aren't topped of vanishes.


CLW wand spam is under said umbrella of virtually free healing. The only downside with a wand is you technically have to have someone who can cast CLW or you can only use the wand until you roll a nat 1 per day, and it takes time to use and can burn through your buffs, especially at midlevels before you have 10+min of min/lvl spells. But they are still free even by level 7, as a single cure light wounds wand will hold the party for several dungeons and is just .75% of the party wealth.

Actually, the best spells for nova'ing via buff are low level spells for a cleric or other healing class. Sure, the wizard does have fireball that it can spam at 3rd level, but the party health situation doesn't stop the wizard/sorcerer from nova'ing (unless its a matter of whether or not they catch the party in their aoe damage spells), but it's the cleric who gives the fighter shield of faith, shield other, barkskin, magic vestments, mantle of wrath, etc. which keeps them from taking damage every round, or in shield other's case, spreads it out so channels are better spent. If the cleric didn't spend those spells, he could instead have to spend them after the fact on spontaneous cure spells.

The point of the game isn't the party to be super confident walking in to every fight regardless of their resource expenditure. It's a resource management game, if you take out a huge factor of the resources that need to be managed, HP, you screw with the balance.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
CLW wand spam is under said umbrella of virtually free healing. (...) It's a resource management game, if you take out a huge factor of the resources that need to be managed, HP, you screw with the balance.

Is the last statement about a hypothetical game where healing wands don't exist? Because otherwise, these two statements contradict each other.

My point was that virtually free healing already exists, and thus making it actually free wouldn't change much.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
The only downside with a wand is you technically have to have someone who can cast CLW or you can only use the wand until you roll a nat 1 per day

20 out of the 40 classes in the game can use healing wands (CLW and/or Infernal Healing), not counting archetypes or Occultist. Furthermore, a natural 1 only prevents using the item again if it's also a failure to activate the item. At UMD +19, a natural 1 to activate a wand is still a success.


The game does not assume the party just carries around 5-10 clw wands to burn through over the course of an AP, for example. Very rarely are cure wands given to players as a reward, and even then they are often given the larger wands without regard to their massive inefficiency of use. Again, the ability to freely heal just makes small encounters utterly meaningless, and unless you simply want to waste time with non-threatening encounters, you have to amp up the difficulty so that every encounter can chew through at least one party member's entire hp if they aren't spending any resources of buffing.


Are you ignoring the possibility of buying wands?


The game does not assume its something that is done. It's not ignoring the possibility, it's recognizing that having an economy centered around supplying 20 CLW wands per week to all the adventuring parties in a major urban center is ridiculous.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
The game does not assume the party just carries around 5-10 clw wands to burn through over the course of an AP, for example.
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The game does not assume its something that is done. It's not ignoring the possibility, it's recognizing that having an economy centered around supplying 20 CLW wands per week to all the adventuring parties in a major urban center is ridiculous.

The combination of these two leads me to think there are 2-4 AP scale events per week in every major urban center. That would certainly be ridiculous.

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The game does not assume the party just carries around 5-10 clw wands to burn through over the course of an AP, for example.
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The game does not assume its something that is done. It's not ignoring the possibility, it's recognizing that having an economy centered around supplying 20 CLW wands per week to all the adventuring parties in a major urban center is ridiculous.
The combination of these two leads me to think there are 2-4 AP scale events per week in every major urban center. That would certainly be ridiculous.

Do you think that the "magic market" economy lives on AP scale events?

People will buy potions of CLW to cure wounds after an encounter with bandits, the army and guards will stockpile some CLW wands for the events with a lot of wounded, like riots, fires, floods, avalanches, battles, and so on.

RAW, every small town (201-2,000 inhabitants) has a 75% chance of having a CLW wand on sale in a shop (and every other magic item with a price of 1,000 gp or less). That is hardly credible, especially for the niche items.
But with a bit of role-playing and GM input finding and purchasing a CLW wand from someone (the rancher that keeps one in reserve if something happens to his people, the local priest that has one as backup healing) is perfectly feasible.
A CLW wand is the equivalent of 8 months of a wealthy lifestyle. Something like 35,000-40,000 $ or €. It can be a reasonable investment if your activity has a risk of serious accidents and access to someone that can use it.


Diego Rossi wrote:
thejeff wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The game does not assume the party just carries around 5-10 clw wands to burn through over the course of an AP, for example.
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The game does not assume its something that is done. It's not ignoring the possibility, it's recognizing that having an economy centered around supplying 20 CLW wands per week to all the adventuring parties in a major urban center is ridiculous.
The combination of these two leads me to think there are 2-4 AP scale events per week in every major urban center. That would certainly be ridiculous.

Do you think that the "magic market" economy lives on AP scale events?

People will buy potions of CLW to cure wounds after an encounter with bandits, the army and guards will stockpile some CLW wands for the events with a lot of wounded, like riots, fires, floods, avalanches, battles, and so on.

RAW, every small town (201-2,000 inhabitants) has a 75% chance of having a CLW wand on sale in a shop (and every other magic item with a price of 1,000 gp or less). That is hardly credible, especially for the niche items.
But with a bit of role-playing and GM input finding and purchasing a CLW wand from someone (the rancher that keeps one in reserve if something happens to his people, the local priest that has one as backup healing) is perfectly feasible.
A CLW wand is the equivalent of 8 months of a wealthy lifestyle. Something like 35,000-40,000 $ or €. It can be a reasonable investment if your activity has a risk of serious accidents and access to someone that can use it.

I think the "magic market economy" isn't really a thing. The

"economics" of PF exist for game balance with a bit of handwaving towards verisimilitude, not to reflect any meaningful economy.

But really all I was commenting on was the combination of "using up 5-10 CLW wands during an AP" with "20 CLW wands per week to adventuring parties in any major urban center".

Plenty of large non-adventuring groups might have one for emergencies - though in many cases a single low level cleric channelling to heal a large group would be far more effective - any mass injury event to low level NPCs.

But it's only high level parties that burn through them nearly fast enough to really count towards that 20 a week. And high level parties only do so when facing high level challenges. Unless major urban centers are assumed to have hundreds of lower level adventuring parties active at all times.


Let's take a city like Absalom, which we know has several adventuring-like groups within its urban center between criminal enterprises, special policing teams countering those enterprises (see the 2e AP), and plenty of other small adventures both within the city and in the surrounding areas (anywhere close enough that a party would come to Absalom to stock up on supplies) and yes, you can expect to see that heavy a flow of CLW wands, especially from the higher level groups. I had a group burn through three of those wands in a single dungeon in book 5 of Mummy's mask (as it was a newer group and I was more lenient on limiting the cheeseable things in PF), literally in the course of a day. Mind you this is all while the wand merchants are also having to balance other orders (CLW might take only a day to make, but a wand of knock for the guard takes 4 days, a wand of fireball for a siege wizard takes almost 2 weeks), every other adventuring group's demand, major or minor (there's a whole society of them remember), and likely the demand for other items besides wands (because this whole constant output of CLW wands is admittedly ridiculous, and that same 5th+ level caster can also already make arms and armor, and wonderous items, beyond other expendables like potions and scrolls).

To be fair on the 75% magical item availability, I believe the game's assumption there is that the magical shop in said town would either have a big, diversified stock "in the back room" and just be sitting on hundreds of items worth collectively enough to fund a 10+ level adventurer, or within the week timeframe (before you can make another 75% chance roll for it to be in stock), one of those items passes through on a trade caravan and the merchant just snags it for you. It doesn't literally have to be on the shelf, and the "on the shelf" inventory is the specific magic items that are rolled/listed in statblocks, despite the possibility that some of them are below the base value of the settlement.


Again, that's Book 5. An adventure for 13th level characters (or higher, depending on when in the book that dungeon took place.)

That happens, but it doesn't happen regularly, because there aren't multiple 13th level parties facing level appropriate threats on a daily basis. Low level adventuring parties (or vaguely similar groups) might be common, but both high level parties and threats to challenge them are rare. Special events, not weekly occurrences in every city.

Even the Agents of Edgewatch are an exception, despite being police. That's not what most Absalom cops go through. That's why we play out their adventure, not the regular night watch rousting drunks and small time crooks.


By 12th level there are other combos that work even better for downtime healing. Look at an eidolon with the sacrifice and fast healing evolutions. Downtime hit point healing isn't that big of a deal.

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