Alchemist advice needed


Advice


I'm posting this for a player in my group, as they aren't a member of the boards.

They have made an alchemist character, and have discovered the issue of bombs. Specifically, the lack of meaningful actions an alchemist can take once they use up all of their bombs.

He went pretty crazy with the bombs, and now we're in the middle of a dungeon, and now he is stuck. He's only 1st level, so at this point there aren't a lot of options.

He is thinking about picking up an archetype when we level to add some diversity. he would like to avoid picking witch or wizard for roleplaying purposes; his character looks down upon magic and magic users and harps endlessly about the superiority of science.

Does anyone have any other ideas on what sort of archetype he could take, or available options for him when we reach level 2?

Thanks


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Well, he's screwed. Not kidding.
The one out for Alchemists is to pick up a Cantrip (especially if they have a decent Int), which he's adverse to doing. He can make do w/ a crossbow or sling in that "it's not much, but it's not nothing" kind of way and that's about it. Right now he's a shopkeeper without a shop, and of similar value to the party, more likely to need protection than to contribute anything. Maybe he could pick up a shield. Raise Shield, Stride into a Flank, then Aid his ally.

IMO this situation will worsen as he levels. Yes, Alchemists get a boost of supplies at 5th and Perpetual Infusion at 7th, but the latter's for minor items, so it's not even as good as Cantrips. He may want to rethink the class. A martial w/ MCD Alchemist can get a decent amount of bombs, throw them better, and still have all the resources of the base class available. Similar flavor, but less reliant on bombing.

Separately, some people have played melee Alchemists and enjoyed it, but there are many caveats with that and if not built for that from the start, it's difficult since the class does little to help with that. I would dissuade any player from doing that, though if he has the Dex, maybe the Archer Dedication might give him some reasonable attack options other than the bombs (and w/o having to put his fragile self into melee).

Lantern Lodge

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Just some random thoughts...

Maybe let him find a crossbow and some bolts in the dungeon, that way he has something to do now. I'm kind of assuming he took DEX 16? Or maybe someone else in the group has a crossbow they're not using.

If you want to be nice, you can have him discover a few assorted bombs as loot in the dungeon. Give him bombs that are unusual or that he wouldn't normally take, then see what he does with them?

Long-term, if he multi-classes or takes an archetype that reduces the feats he has available for Alchemist Class Feats, so it may or may not create a problem, depending on his build -- in other words, can he afford the feats to multi-class or take an archetype?


Wizard Dedication and go with a couple of cantrips

Your chance to hit will be more or less the same.

...

ps: if you go with a familiar, you could give him the "extra reagents" Master Trait

Quote:
Your familiar grows extra infused reagents on or in its body. You gain an additional batch of infused reagents. You must have the infused reagents ability to select this ability.

This would result into 3 extra bombs per day, which is not bad at all ( consider that you can get a familiar with a lvl 1 feat, but also through some ancestry feats, depends your ancestry ).


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The problem with taking an archetype on an alchemist is a lot of their class feats really improvd their math in ways that get built into the chassis of other classes. :(


Here are some ideas:

-Make sure to whip up some elixirs and potions to use before/during fights and share them among the party. If your party is going into battle without chugging a potion, you're either out of potions or doing it wrong. I also homebrewed an action called Toss that lets you throw an item to an ally, who can spend a reaction to catch it safely, to make it easier to share potions mid-fight.

-Get another non-bomb weapon, either melee or range. Longspears are good for attacking with reach and slings/crossbows make decent ranged options. Unless you're specifically going for an unarmed character for roleplay reasons, you should have some kind of weapon on you.

-Have a poison or two on hand to share with the main attacker or use yourself. Never hurts to have that as a backup!

-Recall Knowledge to identify monsters, their weaknesses, strengths, abilities, etc. Even something as simple as knowing that the monster has a low Fort save can be incredibly helpful! This can also make your bomb choice matter more.

-Toss around caltrops in key locations to slow and damage enemies. Caltrops are cheap and effective at lower levels.

-Blindpepper Tubes are expensive at lower levels, but if you can get your hands on them they work great as a debuff.


Castilliano wrote:

Well, he's screwed. Not kidding.

The one out for Alchemists is to pick up a Cantrip (especially if they have a decent Int), which he's adverse to doing. He can make do w/ a crossbow or sling in that "it's not much, but it's not nothing" kind of way and that's about it. Right now he's a shopkeeper without a shop, and of similar value to the party, more likely to need protection than to contribute anything. Maybe he could pick up a shield. Raise Shield, Stride into a Flank, then Aid his ally.

IMO this situation will worsen as he levels. Yes, Alchemists get a boost of supplies at 5th and Perpetual Infusion at 7th, but the latter's for minor items, so it's not even as good as Cantrips. He may want to rethink the class. A martial w/ MCD Alchemist can get a decent amount of bombs, throw them better, and still have all the resources of the base class available. Similar flavor, but less reliant on bombing.

Separately, some people have played melee Alchemists and enjoyed it, but there are many caveats with that and if not built for that from the start, it's difficult since the class does little to help with that. I would dissuade any player from doing that, though if he has the Dex, maybe the Archer Dedication might give him some reasonable attack options other than the bombs (and w/o having to put his fragile self into melee).

The level 7 cantrip bombs are perfect for additives though, and those can be pretty decent.


Guntermench wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Well, he's screwed. Not kidding.

The one out for Alchemists is to pick up a Cantrip (especially if they have a decent Int), which he's adverse to doing. He can make do w/ a crossbow or sling in that "it's not much, but it's not nothing" kind of way and that's about it. Right now he's a shopkeeper without a shop, and of similar value to the party, more likely to need protection than to contribute anything. Maybe he could pick up a shield. Raise Shield, Stride into a Flank, then Aid his ally.

IMO this situation will worsen as he levels. Yes, Alchemists get a boost of supplies at 5th and Perpetual Infusion at 7th, but the latter's for minor items, so it's not even as good as Cantrips. He may want to rethink the class. A martial w/ MCD Alchemist can get a decent amount of bombs, throw them better, and still have all the resources of the base class available. Similar flavor, but less reliant on bombing.

Separately, some people have played melee Alchemists and enjoyed it, but there are many caveats with that and if not built for that from the start, it's difficult since the class does little to help with that. I would dissuade any player from doing that, though if he has the Dex, maybe the Archer Dedication might give him some reasonable attack options other than the bombs (and w/o having to put his fragile self into melee).

The level 7 cantrip bombs are perfect for additives though, and those can be pretty decent.

As far as I recall, the majority ( if not all) of the additive stuff is linked to quick alchemy, which specifically require the alchemist to expend a batch of infused reagents.

Is there anything I missed which can be used with perpetual infusions?


Not using cantrips or magical items is going to make things difficult for this character. Guns & Gears will probably offer some non-magical alternatives, but it won't be out until October.


HumbleGamer wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Well, he's screwed. Not kidding.

The one out for Alchemists is to pick up a Cantrip (especially if they have a decent Int), which he's adverse to doing. He can make do w/ a crossbow or sling in that "it's not much, but it's not nothing" kind of way and that's about it. Right now he's a shopkeeper without a shop, and of similar value to the party, more likely to need protection than to contribute anything. Maybe he could pick up a shield. Raise Shield, Stride into a Flank, then Aid his ally.

IMO this situation will worsen as he levels. Yes, Alchemists get a boost of supplies at 5th and Perpetual Infusion at 7th, but the latter's for minor items, so it's not even as good as Cantrips. He may want to rethink the class. A martial w/ MCD Alchemist can get a decent amount of bombs, throw them better, and still have all the resources of the base class available. Similar flavor, but less reliant on bombing.

Separately, some people have played melee Alchemists and enjoyed it, but there are many caveats with that and if not built for that from the start, it's difficult since the class does little to help with that. I would dissuade any player from doing that, though if he has the Dex, maybe the Archer Dedication might give him some reasonable attack options other than the bombs (and w/o having to put his fragile self into melee).

The level 7 cantrip bombs are perfect for additives though, and those can be pretty decent.

As far as I recall, the majority ( if not all) of the additive stuff is linked to quick alchemy, which specifically require the alchemist to expend a batch of infused reagents.

Is there anything I missed which can be used with perpetual infusions?

You are using Quick Alchemy when you create Perpetual Infusions - they're not a separate ability, they're an exception to the normal requirement of spending a reagent.


King_Of_The_Crossroads wrote:

They have made an alchemist character, and have discovered the issue of bombs. Specifically, the lack of meaningful actions an alchemist can take once they use up all of their bombs.

He went pretty crazy with the bombs, and now we're in the middle of a dungeon, and now he is stuck. He's only 1st level, so at this point there aren't a lot of options.

Yup. People see 'Bomber' in the name and think that throwing bombs as quickly as possible is going to be effective.

Which it is - for a very small amount of time.

I think someone else mentioned it already, but doing other things with Reagents than building bombs is often a good idea. Elixers, Mutagens, even tools like Smokesticks can all give the party an edge in combat and lasts for more than just the one attack action.

King_Of_The_Crossroads wrote:

He is thinking about picking up an archetype when we level to add some diversity. he would like to avoid picking witch or wizard for roleplaying purposes; his character looks down upon magic and magic users and harps endlessly about the superiority of science.

Does anyone have any other ideas on what sort of archetype he could take, or available options for him when we reach level 2?

For roleplaying, the first archetype that jumps to mind is Investigator. It would synergize well with the high INT Alchemist. It isn't magical and instead doubles down on the 'science is best' theme. It would also give the character something useful to do with actions other than building and throwing bombs.

For other non-magic archetypes, Archer would probably work well. Rogue too if you don't already have a full Rogue in the party.

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would recommend Archer if they don’t want to go into wizard/witch for electric arc on int.

Once you get to level 8-11 or so, you no longer need a cantrip/weapon, because a perpetual sticky bomb (with calc splash and expanded splash) does a decent amount of damage.


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I've been playing a Bomber Alchemist in PFS for a while now... he's about to hit Level 7. And yeah, Level 1 is tough. Generally, you'll have 5 Batches of Reagents if you've maxed out Intelligence (which I recommend for Bombers); six Batches if you take Alchemical Familiar (which I don't recommend. Not for a Bomber.)

The main thing at first Level is to take it slow with the Bombs. Stick with your Signatures for the greater resource efficiency. My two Signatures are Acid Flasks and Bottled Lightning. My usual loadout at first was 6 Acid Flasks, 3 Bottled Lightning (3 Batches), 2 Quicksilver Mutagens (1 Batch) and I left the last Batch alone for use with Quick Alchemy.

For the most part, that got me through the day, because I took Far Lobber as the Level 1 Feat, not Quick Bomber. I waited until 5th Level to take Quick Bomber (Halfling Ancestry Feat chain.)

If your player has Quick Bomber, I'll repeat what others have mentioned: Have them look at what they can do besides just throwing Bombs. Recall Knowledge is especially important. Throwing the right *kind* of Bomb is a big part of the fun (at least for me.)

I'd recommend against going with an Archetype, personally. The resources situation will get better with every level you reach, until you hit 7th and you never run out. Pick up a sling (they include one in the Alchemist Class Kit) or a crossbow. If you're willing to put up with the downsides, Quicksilver Mutagen is a good help with any ranged weapon, not just Bombs. (Personally,it's a mainstay. Deris walking around with a weapon is Deris walking around with a flask of Quicksilver ready to gulp it.)


ottdmk wrote:

I've been playing a Bomber Alchemist in PFS for a while now... he's about to hit Level 7. And yeah, Level 1 is tough. Generally, you'll have 5 Batches of Reagents if you've maxed out Intelligence (which I recommend for Bombers); six Batches if you take Alchemical Familiar (which I don't recommend. Not for a Bomber.)

The main thing at first Level is to take it slow with the Bombs. Stick with your Signatures for the greater resource efficiency. My two Signatures are Acid Flasks and Bottled Lightning. My usual loadout at first was 6 Acid Flasks, 3 Bottled Lightning (3 Batches), 2 Quicksilver Mutagens (1 Batch) and I left the last Batch alone for use with Quick Alchemy.

For the most part, that got me through the day, because I took Far Lobber as the Level 1 Feat, not Quick Bomber. I waited until 5th Level to take Quick Bomber (Halfling Ancestry Feat chain.)

If your player has Quick Bomber, I'll repeat what others have mentioned: Have them look at what they can do besides just throwing Bombs. Recall Knowledge is especially important. Throwing the right *kind* of Bomb is a big part of the fun (at least for me.)

I'd recommend against going with an Archetype, personally. The resources situation will get better with every level you reach, until you hit 7th and you never run out. Pick up a sling (they include one in the Alchemist Class Kit) or a crossbow. If you're willing to put up with the downsides, Quicksilver Mutagen is a good help with any ranged weapon, not just Bombs. (Personally,it's a mainstay. Deris walking around with a weapon is Deris walking around with a flask of Quicksilver ready to gulp it.)

Wow, so reading your post, I just realized that everyone in our group completely missed the fact that you get an extra bomb if you use advanced alchemy for your signature!

That's just one more irritating thing about this class: it has so many moving parts that it is easy to miss something important.

If I may ask, why did you pick those particular bombs as your signature?


They're already throwing bombs with 16 DEX (or worse), so the second bomb in a round is a huge waste. Unless they got lucky and hit a few times in their first few attempts, I'm not sure why that wasn't taught at the School of Hard Knocks in Alchemist 101 on Day 1. 1 bomb per round, and it's really the GM's fault if you have 10 rounds of combat in a day at level 1 much less 15 (my alchemist did levels 1-4 pre-errata so 2 bombs/reagent).

I think a spellcasting dedication at level 2 is a bad idea, unless you intend to retrain out of it in a couple of levels. It's okay for 2, but then at 3 you get the equivalent of +1 striking bombs and 4 you get +INT to splash, and at 5 your DEX gets bumped.

If anything, you want to be looking to the future - when martials are going Master and you're stuck at Expert. A ranger dedication or dual weapon dedication helps set the stage for that.


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King_Of_The_Crossroads wrote:
Wow, so reading your post, I just realized that everyone in our group completely missed the fact that you get an extra bomb if you use advanced alchemy for your signature!
Yep, it's an important change between first and second printings. Eases the pain a bit.
Quote:
That's just one more irritating thing about this class: it has so many moving parts that it is easy to miss something important.
Yeah, I can see that view of it... myself, I love all the moving parts.
Quote:
If I may ask, why did you pick those particular bombs as your signature?

I took Acid Flask because it has greater damage potential per Bomb. Yes, it only does 2 pts of damage on a hit (1 pt direct, 1 pt Splash) but it then does 1d6 perpetual damage. Odds are good that any given Acid Flask will deal damage for at least 3 rounds. (It's a 70% chance each round that the target will *fail* to make the flat check.) So, on average, an Acid Flask will do 2 + (3*3.5) = 12.5 damage or so. Mind you, that's over three rounds... but three rounds of damage from a single Bomb is nice. Sometimes the GM will get lucky on a flat check, cut it down to 1 round or 2. Sometimes the GM goes on a really unlucky streak. I've had Acid Flasks last the entire combat... 5-6 rounds, doing damage every single time.

It takes some strategy though. Generally speaking, you want to tag somebody with an Acid Flask that a) isn't up against one of your martials yet and b) you want it to be early in the fight.

As for Bottled Lightning... the entire party loves Bottled Lightning, because Bottled Lightning inflicts the flat footed condition, with no save. In the early levels, I would mix up the proportion of Acid Flask to Bottled Lightning to match the party I was playing with in PFS.


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King_Of_The_Crossroads wrote:

Wow, so reading your post, I just realized that everyone in our group completely missed the fact that you get an extra bomb if you use advanced alchemy for your signature!

That's just one more irritating thing about this class: it has so many moving parts that it is easy to miss something important.

If I may ask, why did you pick those particular bombs as your signature?

If I had to guess, it's because Acid Flask has the highest total damage (so long as you think of it as "tagging" rather than "hitting") and Bottled Lightning has a very solid effect as well as generally ok damage. Alchemist Fire is also good as a staple because of the frequent Weakness.

If you want an advice for your friend, it's simple. Figure out what you're doing when you're not throwing bombs.

The baseline would be "what's your weapon". You have a weapon, always. Bombs are not a weapon, they're a numbered feature, like a spell slot. What do you do when you want to conserve them, or run out? Find a weapon. Bows, axes, claws and staves are all valid answer, so long as you have one and it works.

(incidentally, Alchemist works very well as a shield and claw character)

The next piece of advice is "how many bombs can you afford to make each day". The answer is tricky, because bombs are spike effects -they go off and then vanish- while Alchemists have the exclusive on long-term effects in the game. At any given level, there is no class which has as many long-duration effects as the Alchemist (save maybe the Bard, but at the cost of actions), so that is your unique contribution, and while you can definitely branch out, nobody tells the Sorcerer to not pick Fireball. Find out how many buffs and elixirs you want, and THEN you'll know how many bombs you CAN have.

The final piece, then, is how many bombs you SHOULD have. You can pick a large number of PREDETERMINED bombs, or a smaller number of VERSATILE bombs. Leaving free reagents to exploit weaknesses as they show up is KEY to bombing, and finding the right balance is part of an Alchemist's skillset.

A guide to alchemical items, such as PubAlchem, could be handy.


One thing to bear in mind is that an alchemist pretty much has to be a generalist. you've got bombs, and they're great. If the character really likes bombs, then you (assuming you are DM) should take a look at Dual Weapon Warrior archetype, and decide if its feats should work for bombs or not. If they do, that's a good solid way for a bomber to actually get some attack actions (though it might be best to wait until level 7).

...but the generalist thing. If you try to play them as a pure bomber, they're going to be kind of sad and underpowered overall, because a decent chunk of the alchemist power budget was spent on their profound versatility. There's all the buffs you can offer, and free healing potions can be nice, but in particular I encourage you to look at the list of alchemical tools. Have your alchemist be looking for recipes for *those*. A lot of them are very situational, and they're kind fo expensive and/or heavy to carry around in quantities, but once your alchemist knows the recipes, they can just have them on hand any time they like for the cost of an infused reagent. In the right circumstances, they can be real party-savers.

As for the complexity... yeah. That's kind of the nature of the beast. The alchemist is a complicated class even on the face of it, and playing one *well* involves more complexity still.


Castilliano wrote:
IMO this situation will worsen as he levels. Yes, Alchemists get a boost of supplies at 5th and Perpetual Infusion at 7th, but the latter's for minor items, so it's not even as good as Cantrips.

I wasn't able to get this out of my head, so I did a little digging and worked up a spreadsheet and found something interesting.

If you stick with Bomber, Sticky Bombs will beat any damage Cantrip outside of Electric Arc... and Electric Arc comes with a couple of caveats.

1) It outperforms only when you're casting on two targets every time. This is most often the case, and the range on Electric Arc makes it fairly simple, but it is not *always* the case.

2) If you get the chance to throw into a crowd, the Bomb will outperform the Cantrip. Even with the lower damage Bombs it usually only takes 2 - 3 Splash targets (additional targets other than the primary) to make up the damage output difference. Far less common than Electric Arc's setup, to be sure.

3) Even without Splashing additional targets, a Sticky Acid Flask will, on average, beat the damage of a two-target Electric Arc for most levels from 7-20.


Sanityfaerie wrote:

One thing to bear in mind is that an alchemist pretty much has to be a generalist. you've got bombs, and they're great. If the character really likes bombs, then you (assuming you are DM) should take a look at Dual Weapon Warrior archetype, and decide if its feats should work for bombs or not. If they do, that's a good solid way for a bomber to actually get some attack actions (though it might be best to wait until level 7).

...but the generalist thing. If you try to play them as a pure bomber, they're going to be kind of sad and underpowered overall, because a decent chunk of the alchemist power budget was spent on their profound versatility. There's all the buffs you can offer, and free healing potions can be nice, but in particular I encourage you to look at the list of alchemical tools. Have your alchemist be looking for recipes for *those*. A lot of them are very situational, and they're kind fo expensive and/or heavy to carry around in quantities, but once your alchemist knows the recipes, they can just have them on hand any time they like for the cost of an infused reagent. In the right circumstances, they can be real party-savers.

As for the complexity... yeah. That's kind of the nature of the beast. The alchemist is a complicated class even on the face of it, and playing one *well* involves more complexity still.

I'm not the DM, just another player in the group.

That is a good point about being a generalist. I think part of the issue is a lack of understanding that fact, as well as the lack of resources. I assume as he gains levels and learns new recipes, the character will be a lot more useful.

He just needs to learn the lesson that bombs aren't the answer to every problem. :p

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