The first thing the Beastmaster Archetype does is give you an animal companion. However, the effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3. Does this mean the ranger still has to wait until level 4 to gain the familiar? Or does he get it at level 1? It does not specify anywhere in the entry at what level it is granted.
If this is accurate and you you do get it at level 1, how would this work? Do you only gain the other benefits of an animal companion while your actual animal is considered normal until you pass level 4?
Where does it say that the effective level is -3? I know that is a first edition rule, but I'm not seeing that in the archetype.
Definitely a first edition question
|
The first thing the Beastmaster Archetype does is give you an animal companion. However, the effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3. Does this mean the ranger still has to wait until level 4 to gain the familiar? Or does he get it at level 1? It does not specify anywhere in the entry at what level it is granted.
If this is accurate and you you do get it at level 1, how would this work? Do you only gain the other benefits of an animal companion while your actual animal is considered normal until you pass level 4?
The 1st thing it does is change class skills
Animal Companion (Ex): A beast master forms a close bond with an animal companion. This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability except that the ranger’s effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on wild empathy and Handle Animal checks made regarding his animal companion. Unlike a normal ranger, a beast master’s choice of animal companion is not limited to a subset of all possibile animal companion choices—he may choose freely among all animal companion choices, just as a druid can.
The beast master may have more than one animal companion, but he must divide up his effective druid level between his companions to determine the abilities of each companion. For example, a beast master with an effective druid level of 4 can have one 4th-level companion, two 2nd-level companions, or one 1st-level and one 3rd-level companion. Each time a beast master’s effective druid level increases, he must decide how to allocate the increase among his animal companions (including the option of adding a new 1st-level companion). Once an effective druid level is allocated to a particular companion, it cannot be redistributed while that companion is in the ranger’s service (he must release a companion or wait until a companion dies to allocate its levels to another companion). The share spells animal companion ability does not give the ranger the ability to cast a single spell so that it affects all of his animal companions. This ability replaces hunter’s bond.
no pet until 4th, when you would normally get Hunters Bond
Also the answer:
At the end of the "Animal Companion" entry it states that it replaces Hunter's Bond. You get Hunters Bond at level 4, so you would get the Animal Companion at the same level.
no pet until 4th, when you would normally get Hunters Bond
RAW, this is not correct. The level of the replaced ability has no bearing on when the replacement ability is gained. An example that perfectly shows this is the Butterfly Blade Slayer, which has a replacement for Sneak Attack, gained at 3rd level for a vanilla Slayer, that advances at 3rd level, so the ability must be gained earlier. There're also archetypes where a replacement ability is explicitly gained at a different, level, e.g. Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest's Weapon Training, which is gained at 5th level, despite replacing Channel Energy which a vanilla Warpriest gains at 4th.
That said, there are no stats for animal companions with an Effective Druid Level below 1, so a Beast Master cannot possible from his Animal Companion class feature until the EDL is positive. RAW, Boon Companion would allow a Beast Master to actually get a companion prior to 4th level, otherwise, they'd have to wait.
It's reasonable to presume that the Animal Companion class feature is supposed to kick in at 4th level, so a GM would have to decide between RAW and RAI for deciding whether to allow Boon Companion to be used prior to 4th level.
|
|
Also the answer:
At the end of the "Animal Companion" entry it states that it replaces Hunter's Bond. You get Hunters Bond at level 4, so you would get the Animal Companion at the same level.no pet until 4th, when you would normally get Hunters BondRAW, this is not correct. The level of the replaced ability has no bearing on when the replacement ability is gained. An example that perfectly shows this is the Butterfly Blade Slayer, which has a replacement for Sneak Attack, gained at 3rd level for a vanilla Slayer, that advances at 3rd level, so the ability must be gained earlier. There're also archetypes where a replacement ability is explicitly gained at a different, level, e.g. Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest's Weapon Training, which is gained at 5th level, despite replacing Channel Energy which a vanilla Warpriest gains at 4th.
That said, there are no stats for animal companions with an Effective Druid Level below 1, so a Beast Master cannot possible from his Animal Companion class feature until the EDL is positive. RAW, Boon Companion would allow a Beast Master to actually get a companion prior to 4th level, otherwise, they'd have to wait.
It's reasonable to presume that the Animal Companion class feature is supposed to kick in at 4th level, so a GM would have to decide between RAW and RAI for deciding whether to allow Boon Companion to be used prior to 4th level.
ok then.
you get a level negative 2 animal companion at 1st, a level negative 1 animal companion at second, a level 0 animal companion at 3rd, and a level 1 animal companion at 4th. but there aren't rules for below 1st level animal companions, so you still get nothingi'll go ahead and say that was sarcastic, so no one argues "just take boon companion then"
But really if you wanna take boon companion at 1st and have a level 1 animal companion, it wont break anything.
|
Also the answer:
At the end of the "Animal Companion" entry it states that it replaces Hunter's Bond. You get Hunters Bond at level 4, so you would get the Animal Companion at the same level.no pet until 4th, when you would normally get Hunters BondRAW, this is not correct. The level of the replaced ability has no bearing on when the replacement ability is gained. An example that perfectly shows this is the Butterfly Blade Slayer, which has a replacement for Sneak Attack, gained at 3rd level for a vanilla Slayer, that advances at 3rd level, so the ability must be gained earlier.
You can't replace an ability you don't have. Nowhere in the Beastmaster Animal Companion ability does it mention at which level you get it, so you would get it as soon as you actually have the ability to replace. The same would go for Butterfly Blade; You don't actually get Butterfly’s Kiss until level 3, when you actually have the Sneak Attack class feature. You only get the ability at the level you would normally get the ability it replaces, unless the ability says otherwise.
There're also archetypes where a replacement ability is explicitly gained at a different, level, e.g. Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest's Weapon Training, which is gained at 5th level, despite replacing Channel Energy which a vanilla Warpriest gains at 4th.
This ability explicitly says at which level it is gained, so you gain it at that level. This is the only exception to the rule I mentioned above.
|
You can't replace an ability you don't have. Nowhere in the Beastmaster Animal Companion ability does it mention at which level you get it, so you would get it as soon as you actually have the ability to replace. The same would go for Butterfly Blade; You don't actually get Butterfly’s Kiss until level 3, when you actually have the Sneak Attack class feature. You only get the ability at the level you would normally get the ability it replaces, unless the ability says otherwise.
You can't replace a class ability that your class hasn't. An archetype can replace an ability that your class gets at higher levels with one it gets gets at a lower level.
Animal Companion (Ex): A beast master forms a close bond with an animal companion. This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability except that the ranger’s effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on wild empathy and Handle Animal checks made regarding his animal companion. Unlike a normal ranger, a beast master’s choice of animal companion is not limited to a subset of all possibile animal companion choices—he may choose freely among all animal companion choices, just as a druid can.
The beast master may have more than one animal companion, but he must divide up his effective druid level between his companions to determine the abilities of each companion. For example, a beast master with an effective druid level of 4 can have one 4th-level companion, two 2nd-level companions, or one 1st-level and one 3rd-level companion. Each time a beast master’s effective druid level increases, he must decide how to allocate the increase among his animal companions (including the option of adding a new 1st-level companion). Once an effective druid level is allocated to a particular companion, it cannot be redistributed while that companion is in the ranger’s service (he must release a companion or wait until a companion dies to allocate its levels to another companion). The share spells animal companion ability does not give the ranger the ability to cast a single spell so that it affects all of his animal companions. This ability replaces hunter’s bond.
Until you have effective druid levels to allocate you don't get any animal companion.
You only get the ability at the level you would normally get the ability it replaces, unless the ability says otherwise.
Quote a rule that says this.
You can't replace an ability you don't have.
Objectively false (at least for archetypes). The Dragon Shaman Druid archetype gains the Totemic Summons ability at 5th level, replacing the A Thousand Faces ability gained at 13th level!
The same would go for Butterfly Blade; You don't actually get Butterfly’s Kiss until level 3, when you actually have the Sneak Attack class feature.
Yeah, sure. An ability gained at 3rd level says "you get this... then at 3rd level, you also gain that". That makes total sense!
By default you gain an ability at the level of the ability it replaces unless it says otherwise
Quote a rule that says this.
|
|
The abilities that specifically state at which level you get them overwrite the general rule. The rule is that Archetype abilities replace class abilities. If the archetype ability says you get it at level 1 and it replaces an ability at level 5, then you get it at level 1 instead of level 5. If it doesn't say anything, then you get it as soon as you have the ability to replace.
|
|
The abilities that specifically state at which level you get them overwrite the general rule. The rule is that Archetype abilities replace class abilities. If the archetype ability says you get it at level 1 and it replaces an ability at level 5, then you get it at level 1 instead of level 5. If it doesn't say anything, then you get it as soon as you have the ability to replace.
This.
@Derklord you made the initial claim, the burden of proof is on you.
Without a specific statement that the change effects something at a different level, use the default level of the replaced ability.
There are several things that say "gain at x level", without that qualifier it defaults to the level of the replaced ability
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alternate Class Features
Most of the options presented on the following pages include a host of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here. Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the elemental fist class feature of the monk of the four winds replaces the stunning fist class feature of the monk. When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options. All of the other class features found in the core class and not mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level (unless noted otherwise). A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
Can you point where it says that an alternate class feature replaces a feature you get at the same level?
If you look at the different archetypes you will see that there are plenty of them that get alternate abilities at levels that are different from those of the original abilities, and alternate abilities that replace several original abilities.You two are inventing a rule that doesn't exist and wasn't followed by Paizo developers in the creation of the existing archetypes.
Not only what you say isn't RAW, but it isn't even RAI.
Note that there are archetypes that get different abilities without trading away something directly for them (the Animal shaman nature bond and wild empathy are an example) as the cost is subsumed in what it traded for other abilities.
Getting archetypes abilities isn't a one-for-one trade, is a lump trade of all you give away for the new features.
|
|
Alternate Class Features
Most of the options presented on the following pages include a host of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here. Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the elemental fist class feature of the monk of the four winds replaces the stunning fist class feature of the monk. When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options. All of the other class features found in the core class and not mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level (unless noted otherwise). A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.Can you point where it says that an alternate class feature replaces a feature you get at the same level?
If you look at the different archetypes you will see that there are plenty of them that get alternate abilities at levels that are different from those of the original abilities, and alternate abilities that replace several original abilities.
You two are inventing a rule that doesn't exist and wasn't followed by Paizo developers in the creation of the existing archetypes.Not only what you say isn't RAW, but it isn't even RAI.
Note that there are archetypes that get different abilities without trading away something directly for them (the Animal shaman nature bond and wild empathy are an example) as the cost is subsumed in what it traded for other abilities.
Getting archetypes abilities isn't a one-for-one trade, is a lump trade of all you give away for the new features.
Again, you can't replace something you don't have. If you don't have sneak attack, abilities that replace it won't work. If you don't have Hunter's Bond, you can't replace it with Animal Companion. You even linked the relevant line: "Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class."
The same thing applies to Feats. For example you can't take Accomplished Sneak Attacker until level 3 as a Slayer, since you don't have Sneak Attack until that level. If you really think all that matters is that you will get it eventually, then you would be able to take that feat at level 1.
|
|
Again, you can't replace something you don't have. If you don't have sneak attack, abilities that replace it won't work. If you don't have Hunter's Bond, you can't replace it with Animal Companion. You even linked the relevant line: "Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class."
The same thing applies to Feats. For example you can't take Accomplished Sneak Attacker until level 3 as a Slayer, since you don't have Sneak Attack until that level. If you really think all that matters is that you will get it eventually, then you would be able to take that feat at level 1.
You make a statement, but don't give any basis for it besides "I say so!".
There are plenty of archetypes that show that it doesn't work that way.|
|
You make a statement, but don't give any basis for it besides "I say so!".Again, you can't replace something you don't have. If you don't have sneak attack, abilities that replace it won't work. If you don't have Hunter's Bond, you can't replace it with Animal Companion. You even linked the relevant line: "Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class."
The same thing applies to Feats. For example you can't take Accomplished Sneak Attacker until level 3 as a Slayer, since you don't have Sneak Attack until that level. If you really think all that matters is that you will get it eventually, then you would be able to take that feat at level 1.
I am providing evidence and precedent, you are simply ignoring me, taking my claims out of context, and trying to shift the burden of proof onto us as if the general consensus has always been on your side.
You have to meet a requirement to take a feat. In order to meet that requirement you have to have that ability. Until you have that ability you can not take that feat. Why do you assume Archetype abilities that "replace" class abilities don't have to meet that same burden? Nowhere in the rules you quoted does it state "you get abilities at level 1 unless noted", so the baseline way of seeing it is in line with other similar rules already laid out, which is that you need to have an ability in order to replace it.
There are plenty of archetypes that show that it doesn't work that way.
I also looked through a few dozen archetypes, and this isn't true at all. The vast majority of archetypes list a level at which you gain an ability, and those who don't are almost always level 1 abilities. The only examples I could find on this issue are on the Beastmaster archetype. But hey, there's like 200+ archetypes so if you can find another example of an ability that doesn't mention a level and replaces something that's not gained at level 1, please share.
|
|
The baseline is that the abilities that you get:
1) say at what level you get them;
2) if 1) is not true, they generally say that the ability "modifies X". And the class defines when you get X;
3) in the rare instances where both 1) and 2) is not true, the ability description show when it starts working (the Beastmaster Archetype animal companion does exactly that. It can't do anything before the 4th level as you have no "equivalent druid levels to assign. At the 4th level, you get the first equivalent druid level you can assign).
You get Hunters Bond at level 4, so you would get the Animal Companion at the same level.
Statement. Not a rule.
You can't replace an ability you don't have. Nowhere in the Beastmaster Animal Companion ability does it mention at which level you get it, so you would get it as soon as you actually have the ability to replace. The same would go for Butterfly Blade; You don't actually get Butterfly’s Kiss until level 3, when you actually have the Sneak Attack class feature. You only get the ability at the level you would normally get the ability it replaces, unless the ability says otherwise.
Again:
Statement. Not a rule.This ability explicitly says at which level it is gained, so you gain it at that level. This is the only exception to the rule I mentioned above.
But you haven't cited any rule. You have invented one.
The abilities that specifically state at which level you get them overwrite the general rule. The rule is that Archetype abilities replace class abilities. If the archetype ability says you get it at level 1 and it replaces an ability at level 5, then you get it at level 1 instead of level 5. If it doesn't say anything, then you get it as soon as you have the ability to replace.
Another statement that you try to pass as a rule.
Again, you can't replace something you don't have. If you don't have sneak attack, abilities that replace it won't work. If you don't have Hunter's Bond, you can't replace it with Animal Companion. You even linked the relevant line: "Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class."
The same thing applies to Feats. For example you can't take Accomplished Sneak Attacker until level 3 as a Slayer, since you don't have Sneak Attack until that level. If you really think all that matters is that you will get it eventually, then you would be able to take that feat at level 1.
Another statement, where you compare archetypes to feats.
So besides stating something, any rule citation?
Dev statement?
Contributor guidelines?
|
|
So are we saying every ability that doesn't say "at x level gain" is automatically gained at 1st level?derklord provided evidence to support that, and i’m not seeing any to the contrary. So…yes?
Though it doesn’t really appear the rules say one way or the other.
He only proved that you gain an archetype ability at the level it says you gain it. He proved nothing about archetype abilities that don't mention levels at all.
|
|
it’s clear that the authors of Butterfly Blade Slayer believe that the default is that abilities that don’t say what level they are acquired acquire them at Level 1 independent of the level of the ability they replace. That’s not a Rule, but it is Evidence, and there hasn’t been any to the contrary.
Have you spoken with the authors on this matter? Is there an FAQ about it, or some tell all blog they posted about how they intended Butterfly Blade Slayers don't get a penalty at levels 1 and 2, but simply forgot to put in "At 1st level..."?
|
|
So besides stating something, any rule citation?
Dev statement?
Contributor guidelines?I cited it already, you just conveniently ignored it. "Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class."
Where does it say you can replace class features you don't have yet?
In several archetypes where you replace abilities that you don't jet have.
Repeating N variations of the same phrase doesn't make it true.
|
|
it’s clear that the authors of Butterfly Blade Slayer believe that the default is that abilities that don’t say what level they are acquired acquire them at Level 1 independent of the level of the ability they replace. That’s not a Rule, but it is Evidence, and there hasn’t been any to the contrary.Have you spoken with the authors on this matter? Is there an FAQ about it, or some tell all blog they posted about how they intended Butterfly Blade Slayers don't get a penalty at levels 1 and 2, but simply forgot to put in "At 1st level..."?
So evidence that contradicts you is an error and doesn't mean anything.
"Perfectly logic."|
|
So besides stating something, any rule citation?
Dev statement?
Contributor guidelines?I cited it already, you just conveniently ignored it. "Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class."
Where does it say you can replace class features you don't have yet?
In several archetypes where you replace abilities that you don't jet have.
Repeating N variations of the same phrase doesn't make it true.
Oh so it's okay for you to extrapolate rules based on other rules, but not okay for me to do the same?
Those are all specific cases tied to that specific ability. You can't just extend that to every ability because you feel like it. There has to be a specific rule stating "you gain all abilities at level 1 unless otherwise stated", otherwise you need to go with the generic "You gain abilities at the level you would normally gain them, unless otherwise stated".
it’s clear that the authors of Butterfly Blade Slayer believe that the default is that abilities that don’t say what level they are acquired acquire them at Level 1 independent of the level of the ability they replace. That’s not a Rule, but it is Evidence, and there hasn’t been any to the contrary.Have you spoken with the authors on this matter? Is there an FAQ about it, or some tell all blog they posted about how they intended Butterfly Blade Slayers don't get a penalty at levels 1 and 2, but simply forgot to put in "At 1st level..."?So evidence that contradicts you is an error and doesn't mean anything.
"Perfectly logic."
You can't claim that what someone's intent is if you've never spoken to them. I also have provided an example of what they might have done if they indeed intended for the ability to work at level 1, which is add three simple words at the start of the sentence. Something I'm sure they're well versed on.
Also, again you're ignoring parts of this conversation you don't like. Show me more examples of abilities that replace non level 1 abilities that don't mention which level they're gained at. If you can't you'll just prove you are being intentionally malicious.
|
|
Oh so it's okay for you to extrapolate rules based on other rules, but not okay for me to do the same?
You and Name Violation are the ones that state that there is a rule that says that an ability replaces another ability at the same level.
We say that there isn't such a rule.
Now you admit that you are extrapolating that from a piece of text that doesn't say that. It says:
"Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class."
0 references to the level of the two (or more) abilities.
Then you argue that the example that was shown of an ability that is got at a different level from the substituted ability is an error and is not worth as an example as we haven't asked the author.
And you have the gall of accusing other people of having malicious intentions when they disagree with your argument?
|
|
Oh so it's okay for you to extrapolate rules based on other rules, but not okay for me to do the same?You and Name Violation are the ones that state that there is a rule that says that an ability replaces another ability at the same level.
We say that there isn't such a rule.
Right, there's no explicit rule, but we can extrapolate based on the fact that the vast majority of replacement abilities are gained at the same level as what they're replacing. Extrapolation is a good thing, it lets us figure things out using evidence already provided, instead of being extremely pedantic about the rules.
Now you admit that you are extrapolating that from a piece of text that doesn't say that. It says:
"Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class."
0 references to the level of the two (or more) abilities.
It also doesn't mention that you get it immediately. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the rule is "Abilities you replace are gained instantly unless otherwise stated". Logically if you replace an ability, the replacement would be gained at the same level. Any other way of thinking is illogical.
Then you argue that the example that was shown of an ability that is got at a different level from the substituted ability is an error and is not worth as an example as we haven't asked the author.
As I explained, the Butterfly Blade ability clearly states a level in it, level 3. A lot of archetype abilities have wording in front of the first mention on a level, but it doesn't mean everything said before the level happens at level 1. I was also trying to point out that claiming to know the author's intent is just flat out lying. It's not clear that the intent is to be gained at level 1. It IS clear that at level 3 you get bonuses.
And you have the gall of accusing other people of having malicious intentions when they disagree with your argument?
I have the "gall" to claim you are acting in bad faith because you definitely are. You consistently only quote things you think you can disprove and completely ignore the rest of my comments. I clearly stated in my first post that if an ability mentions a level you get it at that level, regardless of what the base rule is. You're acting as if I'm claiming you get EVERY ability at the level of the ability it replaces, regardless of what it says. This proves to me that you're just trying to manipulate the discourse to try to make me look like the bad guy here.
So stop ignoring me. Prove that the Beastmaster ability isn't just a typo and show me another non-level 1 archetype ability that doesn't list a level in it.
I have been looking through MANY archetypes and have only found the one example in Beastmaster. The SOP of Archetype abilities is that the level the ability is gained is mentioned. So in the end, it doesn't even matter who's right or wrong here, the only ability it would affect is this one example.
I agree that trying to state RAI without quoting the person responsible is complete BS. The fact people will argue about arbitrary "intent" is hilarious, and just proves people we argue about anything just for the sake of arguing. Lol. Did you write it? Do you literally know what was going through the developer's head? No? Then STFU about intent. Lol.
That being said... math doesn't lie. Math does not have "intent". It's not a riddle, it is not a trick.
You have an Effective Druid Level of your level minus 3. Full stop.
Do we agree?
You use this EDL "pool" to provide HD to your Animal Companion(s) according to the table provided in the Druid class. Full stop.
Do we agree?
When you are level 1, you have an Effective Druid level of -2, because 1 minus 3 is negative 2. Full stop.
Do we agree?
What happens when we divide a negative number by a positive number? Anyone?
See, math will litetally tell you EXACTLY when you have a positive EDL and positive HD to divide between your Animal Companion(s).
Do we agree?
The archetype doesn't say you start with a minimum/positive HD to allocate between Animal Companions, so you don't. There are lots of things that state minimum 1, and this isn't one of them.
Do we agree?
What were we arguing about, again? You can't have an Animal Companion until you have the Effective Druid Level capable of being divided by a positive number and giving you a positive result. It is not rocket surgery... jeepers.
|
|
Where is the "things default to level 1" rule again?probably would describe it as a “convention”, not a rule, but of the hundreds of published class features that use a templating that lists no level when received, in every case where it is known what level the ability is received (usually because there is a table there that lists what level abilities are received at) that level is Level 1.
Because the abilities they replace are level 1 abilities. You can't use that as proof because it works exactly the same with both of our interpretations. Please point to any other non-level 1 ability that gets replaced, where no level is mentioned at all (No Beastmaster or Butterfly Blade, those are already mentioned).
What do you want at level one?
You said it yourself... how would that even work?
Simple answer... it doesn't work.
Math proves this.
The table explaining how many HD an Animal Companion gets in relation to the Druid's level, or your Effective Druid Level, does not include anything for negative Druid levels.
There is no extrapolating data from what the chart does not cover... there is no data to extrapolate. There are no HD to split up between Animal Companions... you have no bird, you have no bush, god has taken your bird and your bush.
It is ludicrous to assume you get a minimum/positive Effective Druid Level when it clearly states your level minus 3, and provides no such language to indicate a guaranteed minimum/positive result.
To assume that you get an Animal Companions that exists outisde the parameters established on the Animal Companion Table is also kind of silly.
To argue about these assumptions is absurd.
Gotta love the rules arena, though...
I don’t have a dog in this fight but here is a wrinkle for your consideration. It is a well established rule that EDL from different classes stacks for the purposes of determining your companion’s level. It is also a well established rule that if an ability like channel energy for instance has no minimum then if your CHA is 5 you would get 0 uses of your channel ability as a cleric. So let’s assume for a minute that the beastmaster companion ability is gained at level 1. If a level 1 Druid were to take a level of beastmaster at level 2 would their EDL not be reduced to -2 as there is no minimum value listed on beastmaster? In effect taking a level of beastmaster would cause the Druid to then lose their companion until their EDL became 1 would it not?
No.
The Animal Companion gained via Druid wouldn't leave or become anything less. The 2HD and Link and Share Spells abilities granted to your Animal Companion from your 1 level of Druid would remain... but probably only work with Druid spells... for one, Druid spells are all you have as a Druid 1/Ranger 1. Lol.
But your Animal Companion would not see any increased HD or benefits from your Ranger levels until you hit level 4 in Beastmaster.
Kind of interesting how you don't get a positive Effective Druid Level until you would normally get spells... what do Animal Companions get the very first level with a Druid? Share Spells. Lol.
That might be presumptuous logic, and has no place in the rules arena, but from the outisde looking in... this looks like an argument literally for nothing more than the sake of arguing.
The ability in question replaces a 4th level ability and literally makes no freaking sense if it was to appear any sooner. Lol.
|
|
Where is the "things default to level 1" rule again?probably would describe it as a “convention”, not a rule, but of the hundreds of published class features that use a templating that lists no level when received, in every case where it is known what level the ability is received (usually because there is a table there that lists what level abilities are received at) that level is Level 1.Because the abilities they replace are level 1 abilities. You can't use that as proof because it works exactly the same with both of our interpretations. Please point to any other non-level 1 ability that gets replaced, where no level is mentioned at all (No Beastmaster or Butterfly Blade, those are already mentioned).
i’m talking about standard class features that are printed with the original classes. If they don’t list a level, that means Level 1.
It’s possible they do things completely differently with archetype class features, but the rule for how it works was never printed and there just isn’t any example of it functioning differently, but that seems like an odd ‘default assumption’ to base yourself on.
Archetypes follow different rules, you can't apply base class rules to archetype rules.
Again, here's the logical flow: Archetype A grants ability X. Ability X replaces Ability Y. It doesn't state when I gain ability X, but Ability Y is gained at level 5. Therefore, if I'm simply replacing Ability Y with X, then I would gain it at the same level, since nothing is telling me otherwise.
|
|
No.
The Animal Companion gained via Druid wouldn't leave or become anything less. The 2HD and Link and Share Spells abilities granted to your Animal Companion from your 1 level of Druid would remain... but probably only work with Druid spells... for one, Druid spells are all you have as a Druid 1/Ranger 1. Lol.
But your Animal Companion would not see any increased HD or benefits from your Ranger levels until you hit level 4 in Beastmaster.
Kind of interesting how you don't get a positive Effective Druid Level until you would normally get spells... what do Animal Companions get the very first level with a Druid? Share Spells. Lol.
That might be presumptuous logic, and has no place in the rules arena, but from the outisde looking in... this looks like an argument literally for nothing more than the sake of arguing.
The ability in question replaces a 4th level ability and literally makes no freaking sense if it was to appear any sooner. Lol.
They're explaining why the thought that you get the Beastmaster AC at level 1 is stupid. They're on your side.
|
|
Also in beastmaster
Improved Empathic Link (Su)
The beast master gains an empathic link with all of his animal companions. This functions like an empathic link with a familiar, except the ranger can also see through a companion’s eyes as a swift action, maintaining this connection as long as he likes (as long as the companion is within 1 mile) and ending it as a free action. The ranger can only see through the eyes of one companion at a time, and is blinded while maintaining this connection.This replaces the 6th-level combat style feat.
That doesn't say get it at 6th, just replace 6th level bonus feat.
So they also gain that at first?
Lol.
|
|
Also in beastmaster
Improved Empathic Link (Su)
The beast master gains an empathic link with all of his animal companions. This functions like an empathic link with a familiar, except the ranger can also see through a companion’s eyes as a swift action, maintaining this connection as long as he likes (as long as the companion is within 1 mile) and ending it as a free action. The ranger can only see through the eyes of one companion at a time, and is blinded while maintaining this connection.This replaces the 6th-level combat style feat.
That doesn't say get it at 6th, just replace 6th level bonus feat.
So they also gain that at first?
Yea they just have a link with their non-existent Animal companion, duh. /s
|
|
So just to double check, incase I miss something, for a 1 level dip we can get:
Favored enemy, the ability for multiple ACs instead of just 1, improved empathic link, track, wild empathy, on top of the 2 good saves, BAB, martial weapon prof, medium armor, and ability to activate wands off the ranger list.
So just to double check, incase I miss something, for a 1 level dip we can get:
Favored enemy, the ability for multiple ACs instead of just 1, improved empathic link, track, wild empathy, on top of the 2 good saves, BAB, martial weapon prof, medium armor, and ability to activate wands off the ranger list.
I'm no stranger to sarcasm, Sir.
-Grif. (Red v Blue)
So are we saying every ability that doesn't say "at x level gain" is automatically gained at 1st level?
Yes! We know this to be true for core class features, as every class feature that doesn't say when it's gained shows up on the class table at 1st level. There is absolutely no evidence that archetype features behave differently, and since archetype features are explicitly described as "alternate class features", we have to apply the established rules for class feature language to them, too.
It's not actually the big deal that you seem to fear it to be. Almost all archetype features replacing abilities gained at post-1st level state at which level they're gained.
So let's look back at the evidence:
• Looking at the core/base classes shows that all core/base class features that don't say when they're gained show up at 1st level in the respective class tables. This sets a clear and obvious default.
• The rules don't differentiate between standard and archetype-given class features.
• Dragon Shamans proves without any doubt that archetypes can gain alternate class features earlier levels than what's replaced.
• Butterfly Blade sets a precedent of an alternate class feature without a stated level being gained before 3rd level.
The conclusion of the above (and since you haven't given rule text to the contrary) can only be that archetype class features do indeed default to 1st level.
Furthermore:
• The word "level" appears in the archetype rules (APG pg. 73) only once, for when a character gains unaltered class features. This means there is no rule text on when an alternate class feature is gained. The sentence that Cordell Kintner presented as alleged "evidence" especially doens't contain the word, and thus can't be talking about level (and thus can't make a rule about at what level an ability is gained).
• Butterfly Blade is not the only archetype like it - the Soul Forger's Master Smith ability also has an upgrade at the level at which the replaces class feature would've been gained. This is from a hard cover (and the 3rd printing of it, so not an editing slip), and furthermore, the archetype description lists the ability before the 4th level ability, despite class features being sorted by level.
• Archetype class features are simply referred to as "class features" by other rule options, as evident by the prereq. of the Winter Witch prestige class, which asks for "the ice magic class feature" (a class feature unique to this archetype.
• The Treestrider Hunter's does not state a level, and replaces both a 1st and 8th level ability. If you are to "use the default level of the replaced ability", do you gain it twice or what?
• The Beast Master archetype has two abilites that don't state a level... and one that does. If stating the level for replacement abilities is unnecessary, why did the author do so for the 12th level ability?
@Derklord you made the initial claim, the burden of proof is on you.
First, the first claim in this thread was made by you two. I even quoted your claim in my first post. Second, I gave evidence (the Butterfly Blade example) in my very first post. That alone is more evidence than you have given in this entire thread. Cordell Kintner used a single sentence as evidence (after Diego quoted it, there has been zero rule quotes or links of your own from any of you), one that a four year old could tell you doesn't talk about levels.
So no, the burdon of proof isn't on me. It's been on you two since I got into this thread. You two made the first claim - without evidence. I challenged that claim, with evidence. All you two gave from then on were unfounded statements with no rule support.
Again, you can't replace something you don't have.
Repeating a proven falsehood doesn't make it any less false. Dragon Shaman proves your statement false. If your statement was a rule, the Dragon Shaman archetype could not gain the replacement for a 13th level class feature at 5th level. It does, therefore your statement cannot be a rule. This is indisputable.
I cited it already, you just conveniently ignored it. "Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class."
- Does the word "level" appear in that sentence? No? Than it doesn't talk about level. This is indisputable.
This quote is the only referal to actual rules that you have prevented, and it's an undeniable truth that this sentences makes no mention (or reference to) "level".
Have you spoken with the authors on this matter? Is there an FAQ about it, or some tell all blog they posted about how they intended Butterfly Blade Slayers don't get a penalty at levels 1 and 2, but simply forgot to put in "At 1st level..."?
First, you're misrepresenting our position (i.e. constructing a strawman) - we don't say that the author forgot to put that in, but rather that they understood that putting it in wasn't necessary per the rules. Second, it's called "logical thinking" - stating an advancement at 3rd level for something only gained at 3rd level makes absolutely no sense, and thus it cannot have been what the author meant.
Archetypes follow different rules, you can't apply base class rules to archetype rules.
And once again you make a statement with no rule support and act as if it was a universal truth.
You know what? I'm done with this thread. Everyone can see that I posted plenty of evidence, whereas you haven'd linked or sourced a single thing, and are just repeating proven falsehoods and making one unsupported claim after another. If you want to repeat "oh, a sentence not containing the word 'level' dictates at what level an ability is gained" and "you can't replace something you don't have even though there're archetypes undeniably doing exactly that" ad nauseam because you're so obsessed with not wanting to admit to having been wrong that you're wilfully denying reality, have fun.
|
|
So let's look back at the evidence:
• Looking at the core/base classes shows that all core/base class features that don't say when they're gained show up at 1st level in the respective class tables. This sets a clear and obvious default.
Yes, but thats not a rule, that's extrapolating a rule from pre-existing patterns, which APPARENTLY is frowned upon here. Also if you want to set a baseline how about one related to archetype abilities, like how the vast majority of them replace abilities at the same level, and only a few of them at an earlier level? Seems more relevant to me.
• The rules don't differentiate between standard and archetype-given class features.
So that means that an ability that replaces another ability suddenly doesn't need to meet the same level requirement?
• Dragon Shamans proves without any doubt that archetypes can gain alternate class features earlier levels than what's replaced.
No one is disputing this. Why are you bringing it up?
• Butterfly Blade sets a precedent of an alternate class feature without a stated level being gained before 3rd level.
This is not proof. There's no evidence to suggest that that ability is supposed to be gained at level 1.
The conclusion of the above (and since you haven't given rule text to the contrary) can only be that archetype class features do indeed default to 1st level.
You haven't given rules text either. Where is the rule that says "If a class ability doesn't list a level, you get it immediately"?
Furthermore:
• The word "level" appears in the archetype rules (APG pg. 73) only once, for when a character gains unaltered class features. This means there is no rule text on when an alternate class feature is gained. The sentence that Cordell Kintner presented as alleged "evidence" especially doens't contain the word, and thus can't be talking about level (and thus can't make a rule about at what level an ability is gained).
I don't understand how you think replacing an ability removes any level requirement. It's completely illogical to me to think that.
• Butterfly Blade is not the only archetype like it - the Soul Forger's Master Smith ability also has an upgrade at the level at which the replaces class feature would've been gained. This is from a hard cover (and the 3rd printing of it, so not an editing slip), and furthermore, the archetype description lists the ability before the 4th level ability, despite class features being sorted by level.
Both of those abilities probably do kick in at level 1, but should probably say "At 1st level", either way it's not the same as an ability that never mentions a level like Beast Master.
• The Treestrider Hunter's does not state a level, and replaces both a 1st and 8th level ability. If you are to "use the default level of the replaced ability", do you gain it twice or what?
It doesn't mention a level because it replaces a 1st level ability, and like I've mentioned before the only archetype abilities that don't mention level replace 1st level abilities. It's a single ability that replaces two so of course you wouldn't replace it twice, no one's even suggested that be the case.
• The Beast Master archetype has two abilites that don't state a level... and one that does. If stating the level for replacement abilities is unnecessary, why did the author do so for the 12th level ability?
They probably thought "No one could misconstrue these as being gained at levels other than what they're replacing, right?" Typos or incorrect wording don't prove rules.
Repeating a proven falsehood doesn't make it any less false. Dragon Shaman proves your statement false. If your statement was a rule, the Dragon Shaman archetype could not gain the replacement for a 13th level class feature at 5th level. It does, therefore your statement cannot be a rule. This is indisputable.
You're ignoring the many times I've said "Unless otherwise stated". My interpretation of the rules can't be disproved with "Well THIS class gets it early!" because it accounts for that. If it doesn't say the level you get it at, you get it at the same level as the ability it replaces. That's my whole argument.
Does the word "level" appear in that sentence? No? Than it doesn't talk about level. This is indisputable.
This quote is the only referal to actual rules that you have prevented, and it's an undeniable truth that this sentences makes no mention (or reference to) "level".
It not saying level anywhere doesn't matter. The logical flow is that if you replace an ability the level you gain it at wouldn't magically change. You're just applying faulty logic to the situation to bend the rules in your favor.
First, you're misrepresenting our position (i.e. constructing a strawman) - we don't say that the author forgot to put that in, but rather that they understood that putting it in wasn't necessary per the rules. Second, it's called "logical thinking" - stating an advancement at 3rd level for something only gained at 3rd level makes absolutely no sense, and thus it cannot have been what the author meant.
Here comes the "Logical Fallacy" argument. They said the author's intent was clear, and I was pointing out there's absolutely no way they would know that unless the author has publicly stated their intent. I call out someone who is literally lying and you claim it's a strawman? You know, speaking of strawmen, how about we revisit the part where you completely ignore a part of my argument to claim I'm saying you can't get any ability early, when I have never stated that in any of my posts? That sounds more like a strawman to me than calling out someone for lying.
And once again you make a statement with no rule support and act as if it was a universal truth.
You have been doing this the entire time. We all have, because there's no rules to cite in this argument.
You know what? I'm done with this thread. Everyone can see that I posted plenty of evidence, whereas you haven'd linked or sourced a single thing, and are just repeating proven falsehoods and making one unsupported claim after another. If you want to repeat "oh, a sentence not containing the word 'level' dictates at what level an ability is gained" and "you can't replace something you don't have even though there're archetypes undeniably doing exactly that" ad nauseam because you're so obsessed with not wanting to admit to having been wrong that you're wilfully denying reality, have fun.
Your "evidence" has been against things I haven't even been arguing (see the strawman point above). I am repeating it because you seemingly aren't understanding the words I am typing, or intentionally misrepresenting them for the sake of arguing.
And NO ONE has provided me with an example of a different ability that replaces a non-level 1 ability that doesn't mention a level anywhere. This just proves to me Beast Master is simply a flawed archetype, and either way this argument doesn't even matter.