Golarion changing to a 'lighter' and more diverse setting


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Scarab Sages

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keftiu wrote:
I will say that this is undercut somewhat by the bit in the Society Guide where they mention bribing Osiriani officials to circumvent the ban on foreign archaeology - that’s kind of definitionally Not Great.

Where does it say this? I looked in Lost Omens: Pathfinder Society Guide and couldn't find any reference to bribery. The ban is more of a limitation; the Ruby Prince still permits some Society expeditions.

CorvusMask wrote:

Aka, Pathfinder Society isn't N organization retconned as NG, it actually went through character arc as whole of its own throughout organized play campaign.

(and nowadays they are rededicated to archaeology and exploration rather than the paramilitary-ish stuff, just this time doing it in more respectable way)

The Society does still has a Neutral alignment, that hasn't changed.


NECR0G1ANT wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I will say that this is undercut somewhat by the bit in the Society Guide where they mention bribing Osiriani officials to circumvent the ban on foreign archaeology - that’s kind of definitionally Not Great.

Where does it say this? I looked in Lost Omens: Pathfinder Society Guide and couldn't find any reference to bribery. The ban is more of a limitation; the Ruby Prince still permits some Society expeditions.

CorvusMask wrote:

Aka, Pathfinder Society isn't N organization retconned as NG, it actually went through character arc as whole of its own throughout organized play campaign.

(and nowadays they are rededicated to archaeology and exploration rather than the paramilitary-ish stuff, just this time doing it in more respectable way)

The Society does still has a Neutral alignment, that hasn't changed.

Not quite as explicit as I thought, but:

Quote:
However, the Ruby Prince has recently tightened restrictions on the activities of foreign-based explorers. Though the Society has negotiated to access certain archaeological sites from the Ruby Prince, future missions out of the Sandswept Lodge will likely require leveraging political favors, traveling with an escort, or engaging in covert missions.

When the local monarch has given a ban on foreign looting of their historical sites, and you try to illegally work around that... I think you start to give up your Good alignment.

Scarab Sages

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keftiu wrote:

Not quite as explicit as I thought, but:

Quote:
However, the Ruby Prince has recently tightened restrictions on the activities of foreign-based explorers. Though the Society has negotiated to access certain archaeological sites from the Ruby Prince, future missions out of the Sandswept Lodge will likely require leveraging political favors, traveling with an escort, or engaging in covert missions.
When the local monarch has given a ban on foreign looting of their historical sites, and you try to illegally work around that... I think you start to give up your Good alignment.

That'd be Chaotic, sure, but it would OOC for the Society, and even more so for the Organized Play team to uncritically write a scenario where that happens.

Not all the Society's missions involve archaeology or tomb-raiding. Covert mission could happen for a number of reasons.

Lantern Lodge Customer Service & Community Manager

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I removed a post and reply regarding a specific account.

Separately, I want to remind folks in this thread to engage in respectful discussion. Comments such as "...Which I believe is dumb on so many levels.." are not respectful.


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keftiu wrote:


When the local monarch has given a ban on foreign looting of their historical sites, and you try to illegally work around that... I think you start to give up your Good alignment.

I don't think that's stating that they are going to illegally work around that. If anything that will be horribly bad writing given that Golarion was nearly destroyed because of such covert activities by the Pathfinder Society. And no Im not exaggerating either


MadScientistWorking wrote:
keftiu wrote:


When the local monarch has given a ban on foreign looting of their historical sites, and you try to illegally work around that... I think you start to give up your Good alignment.

I don't think that's stating that they are going to illegally work around that. If anything that will be horribly bad writing given that Golarion was nearly destroyed because of such covert activities by the Pathfinder Society. And no Im not exaggerating either

Is there another way to read the excerpt I posted? Sincerely asking, because I found it frustrating to see the main player faction of the setting embrace extralegal plundering of a nation’s ruins…

Scarab Sages

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Engaging in covert mission =/= extralegal plundering of a nation's ruins

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Point of order here, but there's a difference between "Main player faction" of the setting and "Main player faction" of the Organized Play campaign.

There is no one "Main Player Faction" for the setting itself. The pathfinders are one, yes, but there's MANY others, especially if you count (as you should) every deity's faith as faction.

And sometimes, NPCs are awful. They can't all be great people. It's tricky to present awful people as characters; that's the difference between writing about awfulness and awful writing.

That said, I'm not familiar with what you're citing, so I may be off base... but I do know that as the Creative Director of the setting, the Pathfinder Society is not one that I see as the in-world group we expect everyone to look up to as the best. They're a flawed group, as are many.

Dark Archive

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keftiu wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
keftiu wrote:


When the local monarch has given a ban on foreign looting of their historical sites, and you try to illegally work around that... I think you start to give up your Good alignment.

I don't think that's stating that they are going to illegally work around that. If anything that will be horribly bad writing given that Golarion was nearly destroyed because of such covert activities by the Pathfinder Society. And no Im not exaggerating either
Is there another way to read the excerpt I posted? Sincerely asking, because I found it frustrating to see the main player faction of the setting embrace extralegal plundering of a nation’s ruins…

There is also that its given out as third option rather than something they "will" do. Like "future missions will likely be harder or require different methods". It does feel like it'd be OOC for current society for them to engage in illegal cloak and dagger expedition in Osirion.

NECR0G1ANT wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

Aka, Pathfinder Society isn't N organization retconned as NG, it actually went through character arc as whole of its own throughout organized play campaign.

(and nowadays they are rededicated to archaeology and exploration rather than the paramilitary-ish stuff, just this time doing it in more respectable way)

The Society does still has a Neutral alignment, that hasn't changed.

I would like you to tell what is most recent book that actually outright lists society as neutral. I wasn't personally referring to campaign setting material, I was referring to overall spirit of organization as portrayed in scenarios over the years.

(I don't think society is paragon of morality though, more that they in general try to do more good than harm nowadays, but there are still gloryhound pathfinders and shenanigans that can happen in society play as result of random characters without party composition being thrown together on missions :p Such as what happens when six barbarians go to diplomatic mission)

Scarab Sages

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CorvusMask wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
The Society does still has a Neutral alignment, that hasn't changed.
I would like you to tell what is most recent book that actually outright lists society as neutral. I wasn't personally referring to campaign setting material, I was referring to overall spirit of organization as portrayed in scenarios over the years.

Page 108 of the Lost Omens Character Guide, in the 'Organizations' chapter. Contrast with the LG/CG Knights of Lastwall, the NG Magaambya, the LN Hellknights and the CG Firebrands.

There has been many positive changes to the Society, including those you mentioned, but the Pathfinder Society is not a global force for good like the Magaambya. As an organization, they're more pragmatic than altruistic. As James Jacobs' said, they're flawed and I can tell you plenty Pathfinders have gone bad.

Paizo Employee Designer

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keftiu wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
keftiu wrote:


When the local monarch has given a ban on foreign looting of their historical sites, and you try to illegally work around that... I think you start to give up your Good alignment.

I don't think that's stating that they are going to illegally work around that. If anything that will be horribly bad writing given that Golarion was nearly destroyed because of such covert activities by the Pathfinder Society. And no Im not exaggerating either
Is there another way to read the excerpt I posted? Sincerely asking, because I found it frustrating to see the main player faction of the setting embrace extralegal plundering of a nation’s ruins…

As someone who used to plan out 24 or so Pathfinder Society missions at a time....

The phrase could be referring to a situation where the Aspis Consortium has waylaid a Pathfinder courier, obtaining records from a former licensed Pathfinder Society dig site showing the presence of powerful artifacts contained within the tomb. When the Society attempts to inform the Osiriani government of the threat, it turns out the Aspis have already paid off the local bureaucrat in charge and the guards and military are all conveniently deployed on other business. Consequently, the Pathfinder Society sends in a covert team to sabotage the Aspis's operations and obtain concrete proof of the bureaucrat's perfidy that they can take directly to the court of the Ruby Prince.

That's the kind of illegal-but-not-immoral activity that the Pathfinder Society could readily get up to in Osirion and that that passage could be referring to.

Another could be that a Pathfinder team who was working a site before Khemet rescinded his policy never reported back from the dig and the agents have been missing ever since. Recently, a magical sending was received by the local venture-captain, apparently sent by the missing team. When the government refuses to allow the Pathfinders to launch an investigation or to investigate themselves (thinking that the whole story is a ruse by the Pathfinders in an attempt to get access to, or information on, the site), the Pathfinders are forced to send in a covert rescue team with strict instructions to find and retrieve the missing agents based on the information in the sending, without removing anything else from the tomb.

There's quite a few ways the Pathfinders could find themselves needing to conduct a covert operation that isn't "plundering national treasures".


keftiu wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
keftiu wrote:


When the local monarch has given a ban on foreign looting of their historical sites, and you try to illegally work around that... I think you start to give up your Good alignment.

I don't think that's stating that they are going to illegally work around that. If anything that will be horribly bad writing given that Golarion was nearly destroyed because of such covert activities by the Pathfinder Society. And no Im not exaggerating either
Is there another way to read the excerpt I posted? Sincerely asking, because I found it frustrating to see the main player faction of the setting embrace extralegal plundering of a nation’s ruins…

Yeah it's a hypothetical situation not a they are going to do this sort of thing. Ooooo right.... I forgot there were multiple apocalyptic disasters the society nearly caused dealing in covert missions stealing stuff from Osirion.


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keftiu wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I will say that this is undercut somewhat by the bit in the Society Guide where they mention bribing Osiriani officials to circumvent the ban on foreign archaeology - that’s kind of definitionally Not Great.

Where does it say this? I looked in Lost Omens: Pathfinder Society Guide and couldn't find any reference to bribery. The ban is more of a limitation; the Ruby Prince still permits some Society expeditions.

CorvusMask wrote:

Aka, Pathfinder Society isn't N organization retconned as NG, it actually went through character arc as whole of its own throughout organized play campaign.

(and nowadays they are rededicated to archaeology and exploration rather than the paramilitary-ish stuff, just this time doing it in more respectable way)

The Society does still has a Neutral alignment, that hasn't changed.

Not quite as explicit as I thought, but:

Quote:
However, the Ruby Prince has recently tightened restrictions on the activities of foreign-based explorers. Though the Society has negotiated to access certain archaeological sites from the Ruby Prince, future missions out of the Sandswept Lodge will likely require leveraging political favors, traveling with an escort, or engaging in covert missions.
When the local monarch has given a ban on foreign looting of their historical sites, and you try to illegally work around that... I think you start to give up your Good alignment.

Depends on what they have to do to still get acess.

No more outright looting for one thing would be a good one for example.
And covert missions can be something good.
Bribing is not something mentioned so that not something that is implied to be the usual stuff.
And not to forget if they negotiate with the Ruby Prince can it be called illegal?

Scarab Sages

MadScientistWorking wrote:
I don't think that's stating that they are going to illegally work around that. If anything that will be horribly bad writing given that Golarion was nearly destroyed because of such covert activities by the Pathfinder Society. And no Im not exaggerating either
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Ooooo right.... I forgot there were multiple apocalyptic disasters the society nearly caused dealing in covert missions stealing stuff from Osirion.

I'm not saying you're mistaken, but I don't remember the Society nearly destroying Golarion or causing apocalyptic disasters. What scenarios were those?


NECR0G1ANT wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
I don't think that's stating that they are going to illegally work around that. If anything that will be horribly bad writing given that Golarion was nearly destroyed because of such covert activities by the Pathfinder Society. And no Im not exaggerating either
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Ooooo right.... I forgot there were multiple apocalyptic disasters the society nearly caused dealing in covert missions stealing stuff from Osirion.
I'm not saying you're mistaken, but I don't remember the Society nearly destroying Golarion or causing apocalyptic disasters. What scenarios were those?

It's the Grandmaster Torch plot line which starts with him trying to steal from Ancient Osirion an artifact that you later find out is capable of wiping out all life as you know it. Then at the very end you discover

Spoiler:
the society is a pawn of Tar Barphon.
Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
MadScientistWorking wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
I don't think that's stating that they are going to illegally work around that. If anything that will be horribly bad writing given that Golarion was nearly destroyed because of such covert activities by the Pathfinder Society. And no Im not exaggerating either
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Ooooo right.... I forgot there were multiple apocalyptic disasters the society nearly caused dealing in covert missions stealing stuff from Osirion.
I'm not saying you're mistaken, but I don't remember the Society nearly destroying Golarion or causing apocalyptic disasters. What scenarios were those?
It's the Grandmaster Torch plot line which starts with him trying to steal from Ancient Osirion an artifact that you later find out is capable of wiping out all life as you know it. Then at the very end you discover ** spoiler omitted **

0_o WHAT?!

Scarab Sages

PFS Season 10 spoiler:
#10-22 Who Wears the Mask; #10-23 Who Speaks for the Ten, in which the final villain is revealed to be a
MAJOR PFS 1E SPOILER:
halfling graveknight who became a member of the Decemvirate centuries ago, whose defeat Grandmaster Torch has been working towards and whose destruction destroyed a Decemvirate helm, which is why Eliza Petulengro doesn't have one.

Or so I recall. I still don't remember any cursed Osiriani artifact. But it's been a while since I read that scenario.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

And thus my intense sense of FOMO and frustration at not having time or energy to do organized play only gets worse.


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Makes me really wish there was a youtube channel dedicated to summarizing all the different meta plots from the different seasons.

Dark Archive

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NECR0G1ANT wrote:

** spoiler omitted ** ** spoiler omitted **

Or so I recall. I still don't remember any cursed Osiriani artifact. But it's been a while since I read that scenario.

I read it and uh, it neither had osiriani artifact and world destroying ritual

Like what I read it had:
Demon Lord Zura related artifact that Vahlo is planning to use in ritual to boost its powers to cause a district of Absalom's inhabitants to kill each other and raise as undead so they could open gates of absalom from inside and make Tyrant's conquering it easier. Which might be bit nonsensical since Tyrant is planning to blow up cathedral anyway as you know from Tyrant's Grasp :p I'm not exactly sure why Tyrant couldn't just fly over the walls and detonate his superweapon, then again Absalom big city so maybe that wouldn't destroy whole city


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NECR0G1ANT wrote:

** spoiler omitted ** ** spoiler omitted **

Or so I recall. I still don't remember any cursed Osiriani artifact. But it's been a while since I read that scenario.

Scarab Sages. Torch was tasked with plundering a sage stone which later on you find out could have potentially caused issues. Which once again really makes me think this was more an editorial oversight too because the society has political connections.

Also calling stuff racist isn't disrespectful to the writers. They do it all the time to themselves. What are they doing being disrespectful to themselves?


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Older fantasy products were produced by people who were less aware of many social issues, so the resulting product had a lot of blind spots where bad things went into them.

But also some of the big names behind some of those older fantasy products were, outside of their work, really creepy bigoted weird people and that was also reflected in their work.

That's not to say ever writer of some of those old fantasy products had bad intentions, but absolutely some of them did.

Lantern Lodge Customer Service & Community Manager

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