Jistkan Artificer (Golemfist) Magus - Spell Combat + Flurrying Arcana (Flurry of Blows)

[Wolfiej]

Question around Jistkan Artificer (Golemfist) Magus

I was looking at the RAW of this, and I must admit, I'm a bit puzzled. Jistkan Artificer Magus have an arcana called Flurrying Arm, which grants them a Monk's (non-UC) Flurry of Blows, but only grants one extra attack.

Spell combat is a full-round action that lets you take all your attacks as well as casting a spell (assuming requirements are met).
"As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."

Flurry of Blows is a a full-round attack action, that replaces a normal full-attack action with specific rules.
"Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action."

Both rules do not say "when you take a full-attack action", both say "you may do flurry of blows/spell combat as a full action". Since they are both full actions, that would mean you can't do both because they are separate and distinct actions.

If I'm looking at RAW, despite that they both do similar things, it looks like Spell Combat and Flurry of Blows can't be used together, because they are both different full round actions.

Am I missing something?

[avr]

RAW it's iffy. But there's a FAQ or two (linked plus the next one) which might give you hope.

[Wolfiej]

avr wrote:

RAW it's iffy. But there's a FAQ or two (linked plus the next one) which might give you hope.

Thanks for the FAQ. That was another question I had in mind, but wasn't too worried about. It didn't help answer my original question, in fact I think it made it murkier. ;)

A follow on question I would have is, if Spell Combat and Flurry of Blows do work together since they both add -2 to the attack modifier and are doing the same thing, would the attack modifier by -2 or -4?

[Derklord]

Wolfiej wrote:

Both rules do not say "when you take a full-attack action", both say "you may do flurry of blows/spell combat as a full action". Since they are both full actions, that would mean you can't do both because they are separate and distinct actions.

It looks like you fully understand it - not only did you arrive at the correct result, you also gave the exact right reasoning!

Both are active abilities, and you can't combine active abilities that use the same or overlapping actions during a single turn. The FAQ that avr linked makes conditional/triggered abilities (those who start with "when") that work with a full attack also work with Spell Combat, but does nothing to active abilities.

[Wolfiej]

Derklord wrote:

It looks like you fully understand it - not only did you arrive at the correct result, you also gave the exact right reasoning!

Thanks! It weakens my magus player a little, and makes Flurrying arcana less attractive as an ability. It's not like its completely useless since they can still use things like Frostbite with Flurry.

[Kaouse]

I would say that the Flurry works for the exact same reason that Haste works. Haste only works with full attacks, so if your full attack includes a flurry, then you would be able to get both in a Spell Combat. The intention of the rules is clear, IMHO.

[Derklord]

Kaouse wrote:

I would say that the Flurry works for the exact same reason that Haste works.

This is objectively and, quite frankly, fundamentally wrong.

Flurry of Blows is an active ability, as indicated by the "as a full-attack action" in its description. An active ability is an ability (from the "actions in combat" rules, racial trait, feat, trait, item, or class feature) that you chose to use independently of other actions. Most active abilities require spending one or more of the limited action that a character has per round (standard, move, and swift).
In contrast, triggered or conditional abilities can't be activate on their own, but rather activate or can be activated when a a condition is met or a specific active ability is used.
What the FAQ does (or both of them do, if you will) is that it treats Spell Combat as a full-attack action for conditional or triggered abiliies that refer to that. There is absolutely no indication that it allows combining multiple active abilities.

It's like the Vital Strike and Spring Attack interaction - Spell Combat includes the ability to make multiple attacks, but it does not include the ability to make a full-attack action.
The second relevant Spell Combat FAQ says "You can make as many weapon attacks as you would normally be able to make if you were making a full attack with that weapon." - "normally" being the operative word. Using FoB is an abnormal case.

Kaouse wrote:

if your full attack includes a flurry

That's not a thing. FoB isn't the bonus attack, FoB is the entire full-attack action. What I just quoted is like saying "if your car includes an SUV" - it makes no sense, either it is an SUV or it isn't.

Kaouse wrote:

The intention of the rules is clear, IMHO.

I would have thought so...