Can you power attack when performing a coup de grace?


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

As the title, Power attack states "Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage."

Does performing a coup de grace count as an attack roll even though non are made?


I mean. By RAW, it doesn't say that you *have* to make an attack roll. Only that you take a penalty to them.

The benefit is to melee damage rolls, and a coup de grace is definitely one of those, in this case.

So you pay the cost (penalty to attack rolls and combat maneuvers) and you gain the benefit (bonus to melee damage rolls). The fact that the cost probably won't come up this turn is convenient, but it doesn't prohibit you from reaping the benefit.


To add to the above… the penalty from power attack persists until the start of your next turn, which means that even if you ignore the penalty for a coup de grace, you still suffer the penalty on any attack of opportunity you may be eligible for that round. So your not truly “ignoring the penalty”, even if you don’t get an attack of opportunity that round, the potential cost is still a penalty.

Liberty's Edge

Power attack is a no-action, so you can use it with a full round action.
As the other said, you suffer a penalty to the attack roll, but there is no need to make an attack roll.

To make a different example, if you are cutting down a tree you can choose to spend a full round lining up the attack and get an automatic hit, but you can still benefit from Power attack when determining the damage you deal.


rorek55 wrote:
As the title, Power attack states "(...) You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll (...)"

This can be interpreted as Power Attack being tied to an attack roll.

IMO it's wrong to gain the bonus damage without paying the price. But at the same time, there are very few situations where the additional damage actually makes a difference. The save or die DC is pretty high already, and scales quickly with level. Finally, Power Attack is already part of a dominant strategy at low level (two-handed melee) and doesn't need another boost, not even a tiny one.


SheepishEidolon wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
As the title, Power attack states "(...) You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll (...)"
This can be interpreted as Power Attack being tied to an attack roll

Eh...it could, but I don't think that would be accurate.

If I declare I'm using Power Attack right before I ice some poor fool...I declared it before I made any attacks that round, right? So there you go. Followed the rules to a T.
And as far as RAI is concerned, if "swing real hard to increase damage at the cost of accuracy" or whatever is a viable strategy when your opponent is jumping around, but not when they're taking a nap...well. That's silly.

Making a coup de grace stronger is not something I'm worried about. Because in 19 years of gaming, I've seen less than five instances of anyone surviving a coup de grace situation.


Quixote wrote:
If I declare I'm using Power Attack right before I ice some poor fool...I declared it before I made any attacks that round, right?

Yup, you did. Still doesn't necessarily mean Power Attack applies to the action. You could also announce Power Attack before walking towards your target, but the feat doesn't apply to your movement.

Quote:
And as far as RAI is concerned, if "swing real hard to increase damage at the cost of accuracy" or whatever is a viable strategy when your opponent is jumping around, but not when they're taking a nap...well.

I see coup de grace as a precise attack. The character doesn't just attack, they try to kill the target directly. A big hammer going down on the head doesn't look subtle, but you actually have to aim carefully. And Power Attack is the opposite of aiming carefully.

Quote:
Making a coup de grace stronger is not something I'm worried about. Because in 19 years of gaming, I've seen less than five instances of anyone surviving a coup de grace situation.

Yeah, I am not willing to discuss this tiny issue indefinitely. But after three posts of "sure thing" I felt the need to chime in.

Liberty's Edge

SheepishEidolon wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
As the title, Power attack states "(...) You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll (...)"

This can be interpreted as Power Attack being tied to an attack roll.

So you wouldn't allow a woodcutter to use power attack to fell a tree?

Silver Crusade

A woodcutter, by RAW, still needs to make an attack roll vs AC 5 or less to hit.

Dark Archive

rorek55 wrote:
A woodcutter, by RAW, still needs to make an attack roll vs AC 5 or less to hit.

no, pretty sure you can just use the appropriate craft or profession check and never make an attack


Diego Rossi wrote:
So you wouldn't allow a woodcutter to use power attack to fell a tree?

In battle, the creature would need an attack roll (I agree with rorek55 here), hence Power Attack can apply IMO. I'd likely allow the player to skip the roll since it's pretty much guaranteed to succeed, but that's houserule territory.

During downtime, felling trees follows another rule set. Power Attack won't give you a bonus on your Profession check. Real-life woodcutters would probably tell us it's not wise to swing wildly at trees...

Liberty's Edge

rorek55 wrote:
A woodcutter, by RAW, still needs to make an attack roll vs AC 5 or less to hit.

Or line his attack as a full-round action for an automatic hit every turn.

Name Violation wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
A woodcutter, by RAW, still needs to make an attack roll vs AC 5 or less to hit.
no, pretty sure you can just use the appropriate craft or profession check and never make an attack

If you do that as a profession roll to make money, not if you are cutting down a tree now and you need to know how fast is done. There is at least one adventure where you do that as part of a fair.

CRb wrote:
An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.

Felling a tree fall under smashing an object, when time matter.


SheepishEidolon wrote:
Yup, you did. Still doesn't necessarily mean Power Attack applies to the action. You could also announce Power Attack before walking towards your target, but the feat doesn't apply to your movement.

Not sure what your point is. Power Attack's benefit is to melee damage rolls.

If you make a coup de grace with a melee weapon, that's a melee damage roll.

I start my turn next to a helpless opponent. I declare I will be using Power Attack, taking a penalty to all my attack rolls and combat maneuvers for the turn. Then I perform a coup de grace with my melee damage roll. I make my melee damage roll, which benefits from Power Attack.
If I were to somehow get any extra attacks in the round (attacks of opportunity, some kind of Shield Slam or Throat Slicer shenanigans, whatever), they would take the penalty I accepted by activating Power Attack.

Your interpretation could be how it was intended, but that's not how it reads.


SheepishEidolon wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
As the title, Power attack states "(...) You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll (...)"
This can be interpreted as Power Attack being tied to an attack roll.

No. You interpretation would require wording à la "you can chose to activate power attack before your first attack roll in a round to get bla". The wording actually doesn't tie the activation to an attack roll, it only gives an expiration date for the activation.

For comparison and contrast, the Vigilante Talent Shield of Blades contains the sentence "This bonus applies only if he actually takes that penalty on at least one of the attack rolls." - Power Attack itself has nothing like that.


Speaking of woodcutting, we have precedent for this in Kingmaker book 5. During the Rushlight Tournament, there is literally a person just using the full attack autohit to chop a wood log with power attack.


SheepishEidolon wrote:
I see coup de grace as a precise attack. The character doesn't just attack, they try to kill the target directly. A big hammer going down on the head doesn't look subtle, but you actually have to aim carefully. And Power Attack is the opposite of aiming carefully.

This is incorrect.

Ned Stark beheading a deserter LINK

This is a Coup de Grace, and you better believe he used Power Attack to get that head off in one swing.


Yes you can use power attack for a Coup de Grace. Just because there isn't an actual roll of the die, you are still actually making a roll to attack that simply automatically hits and automatically criticals.

Dark Archive

I'm also in the yes to PA with a CDG camp.


I'd agree that Power Attack can be used with a Coup de Grace. The penalty persists and will affect AoOs etc before the users next turn begins. Both are old CRB rules.


Quixote wrote:


Making a coup de grace stronger is not something I'm worried about. Because in 19 years of gaming, I've seen less than five instances of anyone surviving a coup de grace situation.

I have single handedly survived 3 coup de grace attempts on my earth kineticist. Vouchsafing armor plus hd=dr gies me a huge chunk of nope to damage to help negate the dr, on top of the built in fortification... etc.

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