Alchemical Wonder Grenade (Pathfinder 1 version)

Homebrew and House Rules

Container: Glass, bumpy thing. Shaped like a WW2 grenade. Metal pin does not activate it.
Label: Attached to the ring at the end of the pin. Alchemical Wonder Grenade. Another fine Tetrad product.
Substance description: Swirling, trans lucid, liquids in various changing colors.
Effect: Random magical effect centering on the point of impact. To keep it from going off prematurely, it will be in a small box padded with rags.

1: Silence, 20 foot radius, 1/2 an hour.
2: Fireball, 6D6
3: Healing energy surge. 30 foot radius, 50 points starting with nearest damaged creature. Will hurt undead.
4: flash bang. DC18 to avoid suffering blindness and or deafness for 1 hour if within 30 feet of point of impact.

Is it a magical item or an alchemical item? Is it made through craft-alchemy or craft wonderous object? Description says it produces a random magical effect, you will need a caster level for creating and for spell penetration rolls. But most alchemical items don't produce a magical effect.

As an alchemical item is seems kind of against the concept that alchemical items produce a limited effect that is created through a process requires precise work.

It also seems very strong for an alchemical item.

A 6d6 fireball is six times the base damage of an alchemical fire and effects a massively greater area. Does it have a saving throw? If so, what is the DC?

The healing surge effect is a very powerful effect. Also, since it damages undead it also needs save information.

Silence lasting 20 minutes seems very long and would need a DC since it should receive a save.

Flashbang - should probably have two saves, one vs blindness and other vs deafness. The blinding effect has an extremely longer duration then flash powder.

The chaotic nature of this item may seem like a big drawback, but when used in the opening round/surprise attack of a fight, it really isn't. Against undead it is even more effective.

It's a wonderous magic item.
Like a one shot rod of wonder.
Not sure about the price yet.
Made by Witchwyrd, it functions differently in Pathfinder 1.

I put Alchemical in the title for copyright reasons. There is a purely mechanical version in some Starfinder book I shall be purchasing the PDF when I have the money.

Do you think a flashbang should have 2 DIFFERENT saves? 10 minutes seem underpowered. This seems like a "When I GM" situation.

How about the healing surge effect is reflex save DC18 if you need one. It's probably only going to take out some front rank zombies and only hurt the vampire lord slightly, if at all. Any not used is wasted.

5: Angry Dire Badger, attacks closest creature or object to point of impact. Vanishes when slain, subdued, or combat ends. You can substitute a normal badger if you think this is overpowered.

6: Slippery surface. 10 foot radius Reflex save DC18 if it hits the floor. If it hits a creature, armor, clothes, fur, or even skin are coated. +10 bonus on escape artist checks. Reflex save for objects in hand to avoid dropping them due to coating. 10 minutes to an hour GM's choice.

What I meant by two different saves on the flashbang is you should get a save vs each effect.

Saves vs most heals are Will saves, I would go with that.

I think it would be reasonable to set all the DCs to 18 and just call out specific type for each effect.

Diluted grenade: DC15, (1)Silence 20 foot radius for 10 minutes (2)Fireball 3D6 (3)20 points heal, (4)Flash bang 10 minutes blind or deafness, (5)normal badger, (6)Slippery surface for 10 minutes. 1000 GPs per grenade.

Full strength grenade: DC18, (1)Silence for 20 foot radius for Half hour (2)Fireball 6D6 (3)50 points heal, (4)Flash bang half hour check separately for blindness and deafness or deafness, (5)Dire badger, (6)Slippery surface for 1/2 hour. 5000 GPs per grenade.

Is that ok?

they are [1]charge use activated items.
since they are pretty much described by the magic item creation rules I'd use that chart to cost them out. You'll have to pick a spell that matches your desired effect.
Mainly it'll tell you they're potions that exceed the spell cap.
Spell level with minimum abilities are going to set the DCs. You can tweak them up but there's no hard and fast rule for that other than poisons, *2 charge -> +2 DC.

let's model (4)Flash bang 10 minutes blind or deafness,
Search AoN for similar items.
for ease, choose touch of blindness spell 1@10 {for 10 r of blindness, 10 touches}
consult magic item creation
normally you'd have to touch, but an item as a ranged touch can be done via reach metamagic at +1 spell level, so now 2@10
2*10*50GP -> 1000 GP. DC will be 2nd Spl Lvl -> Int 12-13 or +1 for DC 12. You should be able to throw it 10 times.
with charges you get 5, here 10, so I'd say trade uses for DC. 10/2,then /2 will give you [2] charges at DC 16, so 1 charge should be 500GP (half).

It's still a low ball estimate. Requires the user throw and hit the target with the item, then target fails Fort 16 save for 10 r of blindness else no effect. Normally with Potions the imbiber has control over the effect, so we'd have to assume that here and (at least) double the price for no control. Back to 1000GP item.
The spell is written so that it is 10 touches of 1 round of effect, that's considerably weaker than what I modelled. you could throw in extended and persistent metamagics.
I'd look for a better spell.

Blindness/Deafness or Fear the Sun are other good choices.

The nice thing about the system is once it is roughly modeled, it doesn't matter if it's magical, alchemical, or psychic.

How grenades differ from potions.
1:Multiple targets. Can be limited by area of effect, all in range get save even if struck by the magical grenade(That's just where it goes off and where it centers), severity, and duration, on the targets or in the area.

2:The container always breaks. If it doesn't hit anything or anyone, it will hit the floor or back wall. Roll on a miss table. 1)in front of target, 2)left and in front, 3)to the left of target, 4)left and behind
target, 5)directly behind target, may hit the wall behind target, 6)right and behind target, 7)to the right of target, 8)right and in front. How far off it is can be 1D4 squares.

3:Glass grenades are always armed unless packed in rags. If it shatters, it goes off. (a potion that shatters is completely wasted)

4:Price: Grenades are more expensive than potions, because they affect multiple targets. It's like a necklace of fireballs with only one fireball left on it. It's the strength of that one fireball that determines the value. I haven't calculated that yet, but the creator must invest a spell slot of the correct spell level in each dose. A random grenade like this is even harder to calculate so I'm starting with a rough estimate. WitchWyrds are techno magical so I assume on their secret planet they build magical assembly lines. The magic casters might be all chaotic workers that after their shift go to a tavern to have a brawl. The price is more based on profit and demand than the materials it is made of.

I assumed that a grenade didn't require a spell slot or such as I'm familiar with dung grenade and slime grenade (a monster I created has them, best PC surprise ever!).

as you suggest there's a price increase for grenades from potions, determine that average value(scalar) and then apply to potion based effects.
Technological Equipment

Random effects should cost substantially less than the sum of their parts. The more random, the more substantial the discount.

If an item might cast Fireball or Lightning Bolt, you get a cheaper item than one that casts just Fireball or just Lightning Bolt.
If an item might cast Summon Monster IV, Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility or a maximized Shocking Grasp, you get a much cheaper item than one that just casts one of the four.
It's all about reliability; you're not going to throw your Lightning Bolt into a group of enemies packed into a 20ft radius circle when you've got Fireball handy. And you definitely aren't casting Greater Invisibility on your enemy/Shocking Grasp on your ally.

Quixote wrote:
Random effects should cost substantially less than the sum of their parts. The more random, the more substantial the discount.

hmmm, on pricing it's a balance actually

Magic Item Creation:
Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.

Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character’s body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

with the examples in RAW showing there is considerable variance for GM{designer} taste in the pricing (over the years).

If you choose the effects from a host of similar desirable effects then it's not random, it's just differing good stuff. In your example this is exactly what you've done.

Rod o Wonderz for only 12000GP which should be about 43200GP so a 72%(to 75%) discount for mostly random effects. It approximates "random" and has been a pain in the butt for players since AD&D days.
I think there's two types of 'random' here; choice(control of spell, targeting, etc) and spell effect. Both are played with in the Rod of Wonder. It attempts to produce an equal amount of helpful, neutral, and (minor) harmful effects.

Amulet of the Planes price 120000GP, for 5*15*1800->135000GP, so here just 11% discount.
Cubic Gate less random device as sides are set to specific planes so there's choice and only one side at a time (normally you can choose the destination plane with the spell), price 164000GP, and just one side is 5*13*2000=130000GP. Again it doesn't strictly conform to pricing guidelines as a price increase of 27% is added for the other sides.

7:An illusion of floating paisleys in a 10 foot radius or 30 foot radius for 10 minutes or a half an hour. Note that this shuts down vision for everyone who does not disbelieve.
8:Summons or conjures a mundane brick or cinder block that attacks along the same flightpath. Brick does 1-4 concussive damage while a cinderblock does 1-10. Can be rethrown as it persists.

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