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Hi, I'm running a game for a group that is new to second edition, and they've selected Monk, Wizard, Alchemist, and Bard for their characters' classes. I'm a new BR, but we all have a decent amount of RPG experience from other systems.
With this party, I'm imagining that encounters will entail the Monk constantly surrounded on the front lines, while the Alchemist and Wizard run around lighting things on fire, and the Bard helplessly trying to keep everybody on their feet.
Are there any particular considerations in terms of equipment or starting skills/feats/proficiencies that you would recommend? Or ways I can modify encounters to make them balanced and fun for the full group?
Thanks in advance!
Designer
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That's a pretty solid group overall, though it's tactically hard to say how it'll play out without knowing more about the builds. Monks can be pretty solid tanks, especially with Mountain or Crane Stance, but they're also very mobile and typically more about stick and move tactics and favor kiting over lockdown in several builds.
Do you know what stances/styles the monk might be taking and what class paths the other classes are looking at, or is that also part of what you're looking for advice on?
If the monk is going to frontline they might want to go mountain stance. Grab a shield for the raise shield action.
Wizard probably wants to go spell blending as in the long run that will net the greatest amount of high-level spell slots. Don't focus on spells that require attack rolls instead grab ones that target saves. Electric arc is the most reliable damage cantrip in the game.
Alchemist...make sure they're familiar with all the possible things they can create and make use of their whole toolbox. Don't expect to have their sole identity be 'bomber.' This is the class listed that I'm least familiar with - haven't played one or had one at my table.
Bard if they want in-combat healing grab soothe. Would probably go with Maestro muse to grab lingering composition and soothe for free right off the bat. Likely want to use lingering composition + inspire courage to start off every fight.
This is all pretty generic and playing it safe, none of which is required to have a successful party. There are a lot of ways to play these classes that can be wildly different from one another.
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Hi, I'm running a game for a group that is new to second edition, and they've selected Monk, Wizard, Alchemist, and Bard for their characters' classes. I'm a new BR, but we all have a decent amount of RPG experience from other systems.
With this party, I'm imagining that encounters will entail the Monk constantly surrounded on the front lines, while the Alchemist and Wizard run around lighting things on fire, and the Bard helplessly trying to keep everybody on their feet.
Are there any particular considerations in terms of equipment or starting skills/feats/proficiencies that you would recommend? Or ways I can modify encounters to make them balanced and fun for the full group?
Thanks in advance!
The group is maybe a little light in frontline control - the monk could take Stand Still at level 4, but at least until that time, it's relatively easy for enemies to run past and chase the rest of the group around. You might want to take it slightly easy with that. I'm not saying never do that - do it with some of the easier enemies so that the players can see it, learn from it, and adapt to it. Don't use it for the first time in an already-hard encounter.
The group has multiple in combat healing options (alchemist, bard) but these aren't quite as powerful as a cleric would be. Don't overestimate their healing ability.
Between the wizard and the alchemist, and the bard as well to some degree, the group should be pretty brainy. They'd be good at using Recall Knowledge to get some useful info on enemies. And especially the alchemist, but also the wizard, are good at exploiting weaknesses if there are any to exploit. So when picking monsters, maybe aim a bit more for those monsters that have strengths and weaknesses (plants: burn well; zombies: vulnerable to positive damage from some bombs). Make your combats a bit more like puzzles where if you figure it out, it becomes easier.
Three players picking relatively thinky classes also hints that the players may be looking for more puzzle/skill challenge kinda elements in the adventure, so you can use some of those instead of massive numbers of combats. For inspiration, go watch Indiana Jones; that's like 80% skill challenge but it definitely feels like adventure movies. And the monk could fit in here very much when some problems can be solved by jumping around or climbing to hard to reach spots.
Wizard and alchemist are also preparation-heavy classes that shine more when they have advance information on what they're going to do that day. Meanwhile, bards could be very good at getting that information. Compared to the classic dungeon crawl where the party doesn't know much about what to expect inside, maybe think of more ways the party could do their homework and gain enough forewarning to make some plans.
I think with these kinda nudges, you can turn what is maybe a slightly weak-front party into a quite effective and enjoyable one. There'll still be the occasional panic moment, but there'll also be moments when the Plan Comes Together and they get through a hard encounter without breaking a sweat. And that's great: one of the most enjoyable things for players in an RPG is seeing a good plan work out against a challenge they know would have been hard without it.
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I'd suggest that the monk start looking at Athletics, and the maneuvers you can get off of that. There's a lot of class feat support for a maneuver-based monk, and grapple in particular is useful for locking an enemy down so they can't get at the back line. (...and then trip combos with grapple really well.) They might want to consider going str-high rather than dex-high. Also, the monk in particular needs to start figuring out useful things they can do with their actions that aren't attacks. Multiple attack penalty is especially pertinent to the monk, what with their starting access to flurry of blows and all.
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Your party has a low durability, good mobility, and a plethora of ranged options, so I'd design combat encounters with maps that have room to move around. When you put this party into an enclosed space, I would try to stick to mostly moderate encounters.
Inspire Courage is best when the party all contributes attacks. I would look into getting a different song on that bard as soon as possible like Inspire Defense or Dirge of Doom unless the bard and/or wizard wants to also use a ranged weapon to contribute to the amount of attacks coming in.
The Wizard and Alchemist, in particular, are below par in combat as low level characters because they lack the breadth of options that they really play around at later levels. You might have to start off with quite easy encounters to gauge what the party can take on.
Anyone can raise a shield for AC (though no shield block reaction without specific proficiency) if they have a hand to hold it. Every point of AC is going to be worth it. The Wizard player in particular might consider taking a shield if they don't pick up light armor access out of an archetype or general feat. I can't stress enough that the crit system is brutal against PCs that haven't concentrated on getting a good AC.
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It looks like a really solid party, though it's hard to tell specific advice without knowing builds.
I would say though that because 3/4 characters are very toolkit type classes, you might want to make sure to throw in some skill challenges and social stuff.
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My advice, much like others here, would be to stay away from using fewer higher-level creatures in favor of sending them up against larger groups of lower-level opponents.
Even something like facing two creatures that fill the XP budget can take the Monk out of the fight in one lucky/unlucky round so make sure you divide the XP budget of at least three creatures, hazards, or challenges per encounter.
Your party has a low durability, good mobility, and a plethora of ranged options, so I'd design combat encounters with maps that have room to move around. When you put this party into an enclosed space, I would try to stick to mostly moderate encounters.
I'd caveat that to note that you have one melee with a decent durability and a set of ranged attackers, particularly focused on area effects. You might want to throw in one chokepoint encounter. If the monk can get to a position where the enemy is generally bottled up and kept away from the back ranks, and the enemy consists largely of large numbers of relatively weak foes clustered in tight quarters, this party could be hilariously effective, and punch well beyond its weight. Admittedly, that's a pretty sweet setup for a lot of parties, but this one in particular would benefit from it.
For more frontlining pitch the idea of playing a mutagenist alchemist to the alchemist?
They make solid front liners...
Well... semi solid.
For more frontlining pitch the idea of playing a mutagenist alchemist to the alchemist?
They make solid front liners...
Well... semi solid.
You're thinking PF1.
Friends don't let friends play mutagenist alchemists (yet).
For more frontlining pitch the idea of playing a mutagenist alchemist to the alchemist?
They make solid front liners...
Well... semi solid.
You're thinking PF1.
Friends don't let friends play mutagenist alchemists (yet).
I'm not saying they're GOOD, i'm saying they can take hits to clear pressure off wizard and bard :P
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Be careful, be very careful.
Published adventures IMO will blow through this party due to lack of defense. That Monk cannot hold the front alone. The others are going to need some Con (14) for the enemies that will inevitably get into the back lines.
"With this party, I'm imagining that encounters will entail the Monk constantly surrounded on the front lines, while the Alchemist and Wizard run around lighting things on fire, and the Bard helplessly trying to keep everybody on their feet."
Most martials cannot survive being surrounded in the front lines. A Monk made for that (Crane w/ Dex or Mountain w/o) perhaps with Wholeness of Body has a decent chance, but unlike 3.X/PF1 & most RPGs, minions reliably hit in PF2. High AC mitigates damage more than prevents it, so this guy will get hit and will need offensive help to clear off enemies fast.
If the player's of a mind to use that Monk's mobility (because that might be what attracted them to the class!) then the party's vulnerable and needs to rethink its balance.
The Wizard has an excellent set of Cantrips for normal battles with spell slots for tougher ones, so its main issue is low h.p. and having only one defender in front. He'll likely have to move around a lot, and if confronted (especially by creatures w/ Attacks of Opportunity) will likely die if they can't escape.
The PF2 Alchemist is a master of utility via the player's knowledge of available alchemical resources to mix on the fly. Lighting things on fire is more secondary (even for a Bomber) so the player might be disappointed if they're expecting to be a damage dealer. For damage, they depend on their ability to target Weaknesses since their numbers are modest. Personally I would dissuade any new player from this class unless their expectations were realistic.
If they want a combatant, they might enjoy a martial class w/ the Alchemist Dedication.
Hopefully the Bard's main efforts aren't in keeping others on their feet! They're more an emergency healer, with only a few slots. They're main uniqueness is their composition buffs, though only the Monk will make significant use of that (until as noted above, the Bard picks up another option). Telekinetic Projectile will likely be the default routine, perhaps with a shortbow for when they only have one action to attack.
And the Bard must attack. If running published adventures, all the PCs need to contribute every round (generally via offense, but not always).
Would recommend scaling back encounters.
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And separately, somebody's going to need to take Medicine, perhaps multiple people and likely the Battle Medicine feat too since this group lags in in-combat healing resources IMO.
PF2 adventures, in general, allow for ample rest time between fights for Medicine even in situations where the PCs feel rushed. The party's usually expected to approach each battle at full h.p.
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For more frontlining pitch the idea of playing a mutagenist alchemist to the alchemist?
They make solid front liners...
Well... semi solid.
Well, a sentinel alchemist is actually decent at taking some hits. If you have a good ancestry weapon, you can take juggernaut mutagen for some more hp. If you use bestial, your AC gain from heavy armor negates the bestial nerf, and if you keep boosting athletics, you have a really good check for combat maneuvers. You'll want to flank and such for actual strikes, but you'll be a passable tank with a good support toolbox
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Really encourage the bard to look at Dirge of Doom, because it'll work better for this party than Inspire Courage. The hit to enemy saves helps the wizard and the hit to enemy to-hit helps the monk. And everyone benefits from the enemies having less AC.
Also yeah, the bard should expect to also be attacking somehow. I personally like having a shortbow and telekinetic projectile; the latter is stronger but the bow can be used if you have only one free action, or if range is an issue. So having both is a good thing.
For the alchemist, I'd be quite generous as GM with opportunities to learn more formulas. They make good treasure for this party. The CRB alchemist is a bit humdrum but every new book gives them more options. I think eventually alchemists are going to draw closer to normal power level if they can just always have a really relevant formula for the current problem.
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For more frontlining pitch the idea of playing a mutagenist alchemist to the alchemist?
They make solid front liners...
Well... semi solid.
I'd put the Bard up front before moving an Alchemist to melee. Bard gets rapier proficiency naturally so they can sword n' board reasonably well and the occult list has some solid touch spells on it (notably Vampiric Touch).
Reminds me of a Starfinder Society game where all of us were ranged attackers and we had one guy who could take some hits, mainly because he was higher level, and we also had little healing.
The main tactic in clearing rooms was everybody would take cover wherever possible while one of us (we took turns) would sneak up, open the next door, and flee. This would draw the enemy out (w/ mixed success).
With the Monk's speed, he'd be a natural for door-opener, and the others could stand back, maybe w/ Reach Spell or longer range spells like Ray of Frost & Magic Missile.
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Do you know what stances/styles the monk might be taking and what class paths the other classes are looking at, or is that also part of what you're looking for advice on?
Yea, the Monk in particular is probably the least planned out character at the moment, and also the least experienced player. Some of the other comments encouraged focusing on Str and Athletics, so we'll look at the options around there.
Thanks to all!
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The group is too much focussed on support and utility. It doesn't have enough offensive firepower. It could do with another melee capable character. It may be a fun group to play, so play it if you want. But its not going to go well in a combat heavy dungeon crawl. What style of module are you running?
Personally I would tone down all the enounters, maybe drop everything by a level, or half the enemy numbers at level 1, until you get a better feel for the group. Thats probably sensible advice for any new group anyway.
I'd also recommend that you go with the Investigator with Alchemical Sciences rather than the Alchemist, its just better balanced. A moderate portion of PF2 players find the Alchemist unfocused and a bit too weak compared to other classes.
I'd put the Bard up front before moving an Alchemist to melee. Bard gets rapier proficiency naturally so they can sword n' board reasonably well and the occult list has some solid touch spells on it (notably Vampiric Touch).For more frontlining pitch the idea of playing a mutagenist alchemist to the alchemist?
They make solid front liners...
Well... semi solid.
Yeah agree. Max Dex for a bard, shield (you could take shield block), studded leather armor. In melee you can choose to (lingering)Inspire, raise shield, hit, intimidate and not use spells and be very effective. Magic weapon before combat and your actually pretty good.
For even more melee-centric bard play, Warrior Muse + some dedication which gets you armour is actually fairly solid, I've been playing one at level two and it's going really well.
Lingering from Maestro is very strong to start with, for action economy.
If you play this group, I would focus more on mobility advantages than expecting the monk to take the beating alone. Move in and out of combat and use a shield with flurry.
Your alchemist should focus on bombing while also having support healing and defense with mistform elixirs and healing potions.
Wizard lots of attack cantrips.
The bard can heal and support with occasional offensive casting between healing. The bard's support cantrips only cost one action, so he can offense mix up spellcasting and support.
It will be rough at low level. But don't think about standing and taking damage with a monk. Think about being able to outmaneuver your opponent using flurry advantage with a higher mobility. But the monk is a prime damage dealer until the wizard gets more levels.
And do not ignore a physical stat for your wizard. He can use an ancestry feat to pick up a weapon and shoot his bow as support early on. Between the electric arc cantrip and a bow, a wizard or caster type can do some decent damage.
Think outside the box and learn to understand how to use any action advantage you have over opponents.
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Yeah, it is all about tactics.
Some more options for this group:
Monk gets Whirling Throw and Assurance (athletics). Then anyone that the monk can grab with Assurance is likely low enough level to not be a huge threat to the rest of the party at close range. Throw that fool back to the feet of one of the other characters. Then they can turn the tables - surround and overwhelm that single enemy in short order.
Instead of trying to have a front line, have the plan be to split up the enemies. Don't let them surround and focus on any one of the player characters. Try and divide up that damage around the entire party and heal it up after the fight is done. As some other people have already mentioned, the only character that can't be a decent melee character is the Wizard. So if you can split the enemies up and have them all going after different player characters then the PCs can handle taking damage from only one enemy. The players will still want to focus their attacks on a single enemy target, but they all (except for maybe the monk) have no problems doing ranged damage.
Also some of the heavier control options work well with ranged parties.
Dumping web or entangle in front of ennemies means they either have to be very slowed going into it or lose a lot of stride options going around it.
Once walls become a thing that also becomes the best option for close quarters.
Let's say this room
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Well if you guys are coming in from the south you can set up a wall of stone like this
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And then the ennemies are forced to engage one on one with your monk, at best 2 on 1. Otherwise the ones behind can use their ranged options, but those are often not necessarily as good.
Problem is at the level wall of stone comes online a lot of ennemies have high mobility options like dimension door, burrow speeds and so on, but it's still a viable strategy a lot of times to create a ''bottleneck''.
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The group is too much focussed on support and utility. It doesn't have enough offensive firepower. It could do with another melee capable character. It may be a fun group to play, so play it if you want. But its not going to go well in a combat heavy dungeon crawl. What style of module are you running?
Personally I would tone down all the enounters, maybe drop everything by a level, or half the enemy numbers at level 1, until you get a better feel for the group. Thats probably sensible advice for any new group anyway.
I'd also recommend that you go with the Investigator with Alchemical Sciences rather than the Alchemist, its just better balanced. A moderate portion of PF2 players find the Alchemist unfocused and a bit too weak compared to other classes.
Alchemical Sciences Investigator is how I get my alchemy fix. The class works well where the alchemist is spotty at best.
Tell your wizard or alchemist to reroll healbot cleric or your group is probably going to have a bad time.
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Medic dedication is pretty solid healing for any character. Our Medic Cleric hardly uses her Heals except for hurting undead.
To OP : if things seem to tough, give the PCs a "free" level at some point. It will make things easier for them while allowing you to use any adventure as written.
Tell your wizard or alchemist to reroll healbot cleric or your group is probably going to have a bad time.
the wizard could just take a dedication and get access to heal that way.
Just for grins, because I like monks while admitting that I am no expert in building them, I came up with this:
Monk
Human monk 1 (Advanced Player's Guide)
LG, Medium, Human, Humanoid
Heritage versatile heritage
Background martial disciple
Perception +4
Languages Common, Vudrani
Skills Athletics +5, Deception +4, Medicine +4, Stealth +7, Thievery +7, Warfare Lore +3
Str 14 (+2), Dex 18 (+4), Con 12 (+1), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 12 (+1)
Other Items explorer’s clothing, longspear, staff, backpack, bandolier, bedroll, belt pouch, belt pouch, chalks (10), climbing kit, flint and steel, grappling hook, handwraps of mighty blows, lesser smokestick, rations (1 week)s (2), rope (foot)s (50), soap, torchs (5), waterskin, purse (10 gp; 1 sp)
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AC 19; Fort +6; Ref +9; Will +6
HP 19
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Speed 30 feet
Melee {icon:action1} fist +7 (nonlethal, agile, finesse), Damage 1d6+2 B
Melee {icon:action1} longspear +5 (reach 10 feet), Damage 1d8+2 P
Melee {icon:action1} staff +5 (two-hand (1d8)), Damage 1d4+2 B
Focus Spells 1 Focus Point, DC 14; 1st Ki Strike
Ancestry Feats Natural Ambition
Class Feats Ki Strike, Stumbling Stance
General Feats Fleet
Skill Feats Quick Jump
Other Abilities flurry of blows, ki spells, powerful fist
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at https://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc., and are used under license.
Comments and recommendations? :-)
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Perhaps introduce the free archetype rule? May help make the monk frontline, as well as free up some medic room, maybe even beef up the rest of the party
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Tell your wizard or alchemist to reroll healbot cleric or your group is probably going to have a bad time.
Did you get lost on the boards? PF1 forums are over here ;)
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Healbot clerics sucked in PF1 though. Still right to poke fun of course, this group is fine for healing if the Bard and Alchemist both chip in on it.