I've done the tracking thing once. I basically treated it as my exploration mode action, is that right?
I've yet to find recall knowledge to be useful. Game seems to make a big deal of it. But my only options are "shoot stuff" so knowing strengths/weaknesses of creatures hasn't been helpful (yet). Am I missing something?
Well, it is worth pointing out Recall Knowledge specifies it gives you a piece of USEFUL information. Useful means actionable. Now, it might not be useful for you personally but your GM should give you info that at least someone in the party can implement and adapt their tactics accordingly. Examples include resistances and weaknesses, whether it has a breath weapon (impacting how close you want to cluster for your marching order), and so on. Maybe the creature has a weakness to fire which impacts what spells the sorcerer uses on it, for example.
Personally, I also explain the traits the creature has. So if there's a demon I tell the players that all demons are weak to cold iron and good damage, but also something specific to that species of demons.
But Recall Knowledge is GM dependent. If you aren't getting useful info, make sure your GM understands it should be actionable.
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I'm glad you are enjoying your Archer Ranger. Please remember that on top of saving you an action to Hunt Prey, if you are tracking an enemy then you get to use your Tracking skill for Initiative, instead of your Perception, which is usually better.
BTW, Anne has an animal companion: Yogi Berra, a small brown bear!
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I'm glad you are enjoying your Archer Ranger. Please remember that on top of saving you an action to Hunt Prey, if you are tracking an enemy then you get to use your Tracking skill for Initiative, instead of your Perception, which is usually better.
BTW, Anne has an animal companion: Yogi Berra, a small brown bear!
Only if you have items-- rangers get the best perception proficiency in the game. :)Though the Hunt Prey bonus applies to initiative and can indeed take it higher Survival higher if maxed.
The longbow ranger in my party does the most damage of the group.
Wait... how exactly did your ranger activate and fire those arrows in one turn? Spellstrike arrows require you to activate them with a 2 action cast and then fire them before the end of that turn.
Spellstrike AmmunitionItem 3+
ConsumableMagicalTransmutation
Source Core Rulebook pg. 560 2.0
Ammunition any
Activate Two Actions Cast a Spell
Mystic patterns create a magic reservoir within this ammunition. You activate spellstrike ammunition by Casting a Spell into the ammunition. The spell must be of a spell level the ammunition can hold, and the spell must be able to target a creature other than the caster. A creature hit by activated spellstrike ammunition is targeted by the spell. If the creature isn’t a valid target for the spell, the spell is lost.The ammunition affects only the target hit, even if the spell would normally affect more than one target. If the spell requires a spell attack roll, use the result of your ranged attack roll with the ammunition to determine the degree of success of the spell. If the spell requires a saving throw, the target attempts the save against your spell DC.
The maximum level of spell the ammunition can hold determines its item level and Price.
Activated Ammunition
Source Core Rulebook pg. 559 2.0
If magic ammunition doesn’t have an Activate entry, it’s activated automatically when it’s launched. Types of magic ammunition that have an Activate entry must be activated with additional actions before being used. Once you activate the ammunition, you must shoot it before the end of your turn. Otherwise, it deactivates (but it isn’t consumed) and you must activate it again before you can use it. If you shoot the ammunition without activating it first, it functions as non-magical ammunition and is still consumed.The action required to activate the ammunition doesn’t alter how many actions it takes to reload. For example, you could activate a beacon shot arrow by touching it with 1 action, then draw and shoot the arrow as part of a Strike as normal. For a beacon shot bolt, you could activate it, load it into a crossbow, then shoot it, or load it into the crossbow, then activate it, and then shoot it.
Seems like I overlooked the "... must shoot it before the end of your turn. Otherwise, it deactivates..." bit (they crafted the arrows during downtime before the encounter). Thanks for the heads up, though I am sure my ranger's player won't be so thankful when I inform him of my mistake. :)
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No personal grudge against your ranger,, I just don't want people to pick it up off the forum, get excited to use a nova of spellstrike arrows themselves, and get the disappointment of suddenly finding out how they work.
No worries, there are a lot of rules, and I doubt anyone gets them 100% right 100% of the time. I certainly don't.
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I see a few tactical misconceptions in Zapp's post. Advanced tactics offer other possibilities.
But in a Paizo AP you are probably better off respeccing into a melee rogue if DPR is important to you and your group (and it should be, since DPR is what stands between success and failure).
DPR (lots of Damage Per Round) combines well with other PCs' DPR. Taking an opponent down quickly is one way to win. But debuffing the opponent so that they deal less damage or controlling the battlefield to keep opponents from attacking are equally valid ways to win.
Archers are good if EVERYBODY in the team has access to good ranged fire, and that you can engage the enemies at a meaningful range.
Archers are not so good if your buddy is a Dwarf axe fighter and/or you play a standard Paizo dungeon, where monsters appear just a few feet away when you open the next door. As soon as melee combat happens, your warm flesh is an asset you can't afford to not use (by standing far away plinking arrows). Your warm flesh is needed at the frontline, in order to prevent monsters from focusing their attacks on your fellow frontiners. We're talking your AC and HP here.
If a monster appears a few feet away, your buddy the dwarf axe fighter can be the front line and you can plink arrows at the monster to help kill it. If you have a lower AC than the dwarf fighter, then pulling out a longsword and standing shoulder to shoulder with the fighter means that the monster will deal more damage by hitting you rather than the fighter. That is a poor tactic, requiring more healing after battle. And fighters traditionally have high AC.
You are too sturdy to waste your hit points and AC at a distance with the wizard.
In my eyes, this is why the ranger character can be an archer. A character with good hit points and AC can risk being an archer in a small room. The ranger can afford to be a target. But attacking at range is still useful, because the archer can finish off any enemy in the room who is on their last few hit points yet out of reach. Or deal with the enemy who runs down the hallway to alert reinforcements. Or kill flying creatures.
Min-maxing is about choosing one thing you do really well, and minimizing your disadvantages. Choosing a martial build and then not exposing it to melee combat is what an archer is, and it just isn't optimal.
The design of Pathfinder 2nd Edition nerfed min-maxing. Characters cannot overspecialize into total mastery of one combat style, they can only be very good at that style. Flexibility has a better payoff than min-maxing. Give the ranger a good melee weapon that they can pull out when melee is the best option, even though archery is their favorite style. A few alchemical bombs (bombs are a martial thrown weapon, so high-Dex rangers are good at throwing them) help against creatures that resist piercing damage or all physical damage.
By the way, I mentioned on May 15 that the gnome rogue archer in my campaign had learned Precise Debilitation to keep her opponent flat-footed, increasing her opportunities for sneak attack. Now that I have seen Precise Debilitation in action for a month, I see that its biggest strength is in teamwork. The flat-footedness is general rather than specific to the gnome rogue. Thus halfling rogue/sorcerer's Magical Trickster spells can take advantage of it, too. Teamwork is the strongest tactic.
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Yeah, there's plenty of opportunity to use archery in published adventures. If the arena is big enough (outdoors) the advantages of archery are obvious. If the arena is small enough(5 foot hallways and doors), you can't necessarily get multiple people into melee range. It's that middle ground where melee may work better. Which happens, but I've never seen an entire Adventure Path without any outdoor encounters.
Also, the critical specialization on archery is awesome battlefield control. I've usually seen archer rangers pick a new target rather than focus fire with their teammates, which not only saves the ranger actions but costs them from an enemy who isn't in melee yet. Obviously you can't rely on crits, but the archer ranger puts enough arrows in the air for them to happen quite a bit.
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Well, it is worth pointing out Recall Knowledge specifies it gives you a piece of USEFUL information. Useful means actionable.
That's how you see it: it's FAR from the only interpretation of "useful". Nowhere that I know in the rules mentions the word "actionable" or anything like it. I wish it did give concrete examples of what it means by "useful".
From my experience recall checks can ranges from "here is the book entry" to "that tribe of trolls likes gnome fricassee"... Useful is in the eye of the GM, not on the players view of it or it's being actionable. :P
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By the way, I mentioned on May 15 that the gnome rogue archer in my campaign had learned Precise Debilitation to keep her opponent flat-footed, increasing her opportunities for sneak attack. Now that I have seen Precise Debilitation in action for a month, I see that its biggest strength is in teamwork. The flat-footedness is general rather than specific to the gnome rogue. Thus halfling rogue/sorcerer's Magical Trickster spells can take advantage of it, too. Teamwork is the strongest tactic.
Even better, you (or an ally) can use bottled lightning to render enemies flatfooted.
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Well, it is worth pointing out Recall Knowledge specifies it gives you a piece of USEFUL information. Useful means actionable.That's how you see it: it's FAR from the only interpretation of "useful". Nowhere that I know in the rules mentions the word "actionable" or anything like it. I wish it did give concrete examples of what it means by "useful".
From my experience recall checks can ranges from "here is the book entry" to "that tribe of trolls likes gnome fricassee"... Useful is in the eye of the GM, not on the players view of it or it's being actionable. :P
use·ful
/ˈyo͞osfəl/adjective
able to be used for a practical purpose or in several ways.
That's literally what the words mean. To be useful you have to be able to use it.
I acknowledged that Recall Knowledge varies from table to table, but if it isn't useful than the GM either forgot that word was there or forgot what it actually means.
Edit: Or, I suppose, just aren't very good at assessing what tactical advantage the party can use. Not everyone has a good head for that, and it gets harder when you aren't familiar with the PCs. Which might explain why people complain about it in PFS.
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Not gratifying a certain expectation isn't the same as being a trap. It might feel disappointing if you realize your expectation that an archer will always be out of range of enemy damage isn't realistic. But that isn't necessary for them to have value.
They can actually attack with bow while in melee range of enemy, and if they have action remaining after dropping that enemy that can immediately target one across the room. Although if they are Flanking that enemy, that could be reason to switch to melee weapon for that attack - which is easy for Bows since they keep one hand free when not attacking with them, you can easily make Unarmed strike or use Quickdraw to utilize melee weapon. They still don't need to spend as many actions on movement merely to qualify to make attacks, even if they do move sometimes to avoid penalties, it does tend to happen less frequently and when they do it tends to force melee enemies to waste action moving to them if they want to engage. A melee specialist is generally unable to move and attack two different enemies who aren't adjacent, since that needs 2x strides and 2x strikes while that is generally a very reasonable thing for archer to do and they may not even need to move once, leaving an action for many other things like intimidate or recall knowledge.
Having max DEX does also yield benefits for Reflex saves, with even Sentinel builds needing to spend many Feats to achieve a bonus for all Reflex Saves and it would still lag max DEX bonus by some. AC isn't really a differentiator except with Heavy Armor, although fair to point out armor is major reason for archer to invest in STR especially if they aim for Heavy Armor with worse penalties. But by mid-game most archers should be moving to at least Medium Armor to get it's Fortification Runes, even if they aren't going for Heavy Armor (if they lack the STR, or prefer more movement speed, etc).
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But if you're tracking a creature as an exploration activity, why wouldn't you use Survival for initiative when you switch to encounter mode?
Edit: Ah, misread after getting pulled away from the comment. So initiative doesn't count as tracking, despite coming about from tracking, so Hunt Prey doesn't count.
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Hunt Prey is antithetical to battle field control (one of my gripes during the Playtest). A Ranger (and the Companion) is essentially penalized for not attacking its Prey and its Prey alone. So archery Rangers are not going to be able to switch targets for opportune shots against weak foes like they did in PF1. A Ranger is essentially stuck on its target, and as you or someone else pointed out, you typically want to pick something that isn't going to go down in one round from the Fighter.
The Flurry-Edge ranger in my campaign uses his first attack for opportune shots against weak foes and then uses the later attacks against his Hunted Prey. The first attack as no multiple attack penalty, so it has no disadvantage when targeting a non-prey target.
A Precision-Edge ranger would be the reverse. Shoot the Hunted Prey until the +1d8 precision damage from Precision is used up, and then further shots have no difference between prey and non-prey.
Prey-based feats such as Hunted Shot are typically once per round, mixing shots between prey and non-prey still gives full opportunity to use the feat.
I myself don't like the flavor of the Hunted Prey mechanic, but players find ways to work around its awkwardness.
What's more, If you aren't using Flurry, your "lots of arrows" are at -5 and -10 and very few of them are going to crit. In fact, the -10's might not crit at all, depending. Even if you are Flurry, if you aren't attacking your Prey, you are quickly into the -10 range.
Yes, so a player of a ranger who wants to shoot lots of arrows will choose Flurry Edge. A player who wants one good shot per turn will choose Precision Edge. A player who wants to use skills against the prey will choose Outwit Edge. That is the customization style in PF2.
Yes, so a player of a ranger who wants to shoot lots of arrows will choose Flurry Edge. A player who wants one good shot per turn will choose Precision Edge. A player who wants to use skills against the prey will choose Outwit Edge. That is the customization style in PF2.
My outwit ranger gets a lot of mileage out of Demoralizing foes, especially before he throws a bomb. Those status effects are excellent. I find that most rounds he only attacks once.
IME, it's not valuable. Why? A host of reasons IME playing PFS.
PFS is a completely different game.
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Recall Knowledge in PFS is the same as Recall Knowledge in normal home games: Extremely variable, depending on the GM. There are no special campaign rules making it otherwise. So while it can be a totally different game in some respects, and I do not advocate for presenting it as an assumption of how the game plays in general, this isn't really a case where the distinction between PFS and normal play applies.
this isn't really a case where the distinction between PFS and normal play applies.
I think the difference is that you can see a variety of DM's and as such, it's easier to be affected by the "Extremely variable" parts. It's the same as me in my online games. So not so much PFS specific but playing with multiple DM's of which PFS is one example.
this isn't really a case where the distinction between PFS and normal play applies.I think the difference is that you can see a variety of DM's and as such, it's easier to be affected by the "Extremely variable" parts. It's the same as me in my online games. So not so much PFS specific but playing with multiple DM's of which PFS is one example.
That tracks. And if you have on GM you can talk to them about Knowledge and reach an accord. Harder to do that with a dozen GMs.
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Though the Hunt Prey bonus applies to initiative and can indeed take it higher Survival higher if maxed.I have never seen a GM allow me to use the +2 Hunt Prey Survival bonus on Init.
I have. It's come up all of once, as my group doesn't seem to do a lot of Tracking... so the judge allowed it. With the extreme infrequency, it's not like it's going to warp the game.
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The PF2 ranger has pushed the “edge” towards ranger as single target hunter. However, with only the archer dedication the ranger gets the crit specialization back, and is thus not nearly so limited.
A Ranger with the Archer Dedication is pretty much exactly the battlefield control archer being discussed, with lots of ways to get around taking the -10 penalty shot. It might be worth considering if you want to fill that roll and feel the base ranger isn’t.
Archetypes go a very long way to filling in build gaps in PF2
Designer
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Archetypes go a very long way to filling in build gaps in PF2
They're basically universal "subclasses" open to just about anyone! The APG archetypes were really the final piece of the puzzle for the game as intended- CRB, APG, GMG, and the Bestiaries created the foundation that we'll continue building the rest of the game on. The APG archetypes are the piece of the puzzle that really elevates PF2 into its full potential, multiplying build possibilities years beyond what the system's predecessors supported in the same timeframe.
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To elaborate, let’s look at a level 6 flurry ranger with hunted shot, the archer archetype, point blank shot and double shot. A lot of people would say, double shot and hunted shot are both flourish feats, it is a waste to have both because you can’t use both in one turn.
But the flexibility that having both grants is pretty impressive. You can decide to enter in to point blank shot mode and take 2 strikes in your first round against either 1 target (hunting them and hunted shot) or against 2 separate targets, still getting your crit special action the whole time. Then you can chose whether it is better to focus fire or spread out your shots each round. It really cuts down on the risk of over kill that can happen with single target strikers.
It really cuts down on the risk of over kill that can happen with single target strikers.
Risk of overkill? No such thing!
XD
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Hunt Prey is antithetical to battle field control (one of my gripes during the Playtest). A Ranger (and the Companion) is essentially penalized for not attacking its Prey and its Prey alone. So archery Rangers are not going to be able to switch targets for opportune shots against weak foes like they did in PF1. A Ranger is essentially stuck on its target, and as you or someone else pointed out, you typically want to pick something that isn't going to go down in one round from the Fighter.The Flurry-Edge ranger in my campaign uses his first attack for opportune shots against weak foes and then uses the later attacks against his Hunted Prey. The first attack as no multiple attack penalty, so it has no disadvantage when targeting a non-prey target.His first attack may not have MAP, but it also isn't getting any "battlefield control" which was the point you responded to.
You gain access to the critical specialization effects of all simple and martial weapons and unarmed attacks when attacking your hunted prey.So your player who is wasting their best attack on a non-Prey is also sacrificing their chance at a crit spec effect. Switching to one's Prey with MAP dramatically reduces one's chance at getting a subsequent crit. Its a tactical decision that creates a lot of resistance with the game design, like TWF with a longsword in the off-hand.
I had not realized that N N 959 was taking about critical specialization effects when they said "battlefield control." I falsely assumed they meant the more blatant tactic of shooting an enemy with only a few remaining hit points before it started its next turn.
The critical specialization of bows is:
If the target of the critical hit is adjacent to a surface, it gets stuck to that surface by the missile. The target is immobilized and must spend an Interact action to attempt a DC 10 Athletics check to pull the missile free; it can’t move from its space until it succeeds. The creature doesn’t become stuck if it is incorporeal, is liquid (like a water elemental or some oozes), or could otherwise escape without effort.
I had forgotten that the critical specialization from the ranger's 5th-level Ranger Weapon Expertise applied only to hunted prey. The other half of that feature, expert proficiency in ranger weapons, had no such restriction. Furthermore, the rogue's similar 5th-level Weapon Tricks gives expert proficiency and critical specialization for several rogue weapons, including the shortbow, and I have seen the pinning effect more often with the rogue archer.
I suppose the Interact action with a DC 10 Athletics check might bother an unathletic spellcaster, but the enemies my PCs encounter have been animals, beasts, and soldiers, which are trained in Athletics. Also, the critical specialization often pins a dead body to the wall, because the target just took a critical hit from a Deadly d10 weapon.
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How many combats does battle field control come up as a priority? A ranger can effectively pin down a single, distant enemy allowing allies to focus on and dispatch any that get closer. Hunt Prey only really gets in the way when there are >4 enemies to contend with. In a typical encounter with 2-3 enemies, the ranger is quite effective.
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For your relatively low-valued third attack, most of the time you will either move, or target a new victim with Hunt Prey.
Optional! it takes one action to command your Animal Companion. Your AC can either Attack twice & provide flanking for melee types, or Support (varies by animal type).
As a point of order, critical specialization for rogues only works on sneak attacks. Or rather "against a flat-footed creature while using an agile or finesse simple weapon or any of the listed weapons", which doesn't leave a whole lot of daylight between that and the definition of sneak attacks.
The difference is surprisingly complex.
Sneak attack includes "an agile or finesse unarmed attack" which Rogue Weapon Tricks does not.
Rogue Weapon Tricks also limits to "simple" (or specified) weapons. Which technically doesn't seem to include unarmed attacks.
Further the racial weapon familiarity feats includes text like "For the purpose of determining your proficiency, martial elf weapons are simple weapons and advanced elf weapons are martial weapons". Which is not totally clear cut as Rogue Weapon Tricks does mention proficiency. Maybe this is a red herring.
Not really sure much is gained by this complexity and further limiting of Rogue weapons. Personally I'd prefer to ignore it.