The cavalier and the duel for becoming an hellknight

[rorek55]

Quixote wrote:

And I think the duel should just adhere to the general creed all GM's should follow: build fair, play to win.

I cannot emphasize enough my vehement disagreement with this. At almost no point should a GM/DM ever "play to win". (save perhaps, modules designed around this, al la tomb of horrors)

[Quixote]

What I mean is, you BUILD an encounter fairly. But you PLAY it ruthlessly.

In this example, if you gave a 7HD devil a mount to do battle with a lvl6 PC, you wouldn't give them a CR12 mount. That's not fair. The encounter is poorly designed.

But. Once the game has begun and the encounter has been encountered, the devil does everything they can to emerge victorious.

Better to build a reasonable encounter than have to pull your punches at the table. That's not fun for anyone.

[Ryze Kuja]

rorek55 wrote:

Quixote wrote:

And I think the duel should just adhere to the general creed all GM's should follow: build fair, play to win.

I cannot emphasize enough my vehement disagreement with this. At almost no point should a GM/DM ever "play to win". (save perhaps, modules designed around this, al la tomb of horrors)

I don't think Quixote meant what you're insinuating. I think he means "Build Fairly, but play to adequately Challenge the Party". No DM plays to TPK a party, and if you do, you're not a DM.

Edit: ya, ninja'd

[Derek Dalton]

I've read anything regarding HellKnights that I can find. That being said they are not an evil group of thugs under devilish control but more akin to a less lethal Judge Dredd. They in fact have a few Lawful Good members in a couple of orders. Law and Order are paramount. Rules are to be enforced in all things according to the individual tenants of each order.
Now a Cavalier using his mount depending on the particular order may be frowned upon but another order see the mount as an extension of the cavalier and encourage it. The rules for the duel are also rather clear. Once the duel commences the cavalier is on his own. He can't recieve any outside help in any way. So if the fight is between him and him only and the devil if his mount steps into the arena area the duel is over with the cavalier viewed as a cheater and forbidden from being a Hellknight and more then likely killed. Now it also states the Cavalier can get boosted up the wazoo with whatever before the actual duel and that is legal. His mage friend casts the spell mount which depending on whose asking is not a second thing in the arena but a magical construct summoned by magic. Not as good as the cavalier's actual mount but may be an acceptable alternative. He could also borrow a Devil bane weapon from a fellow knight for the duel again perfectly acceptable.

[ShadowcatX]

Derek Dalton wrote:

The rules for the duel are also rather clear.

Oh? If that were true we wouldn't have this thread. So tell me what page are these rules made clear?

If it's the spell, let me point out that a mount can enter the circle after the spell it is cast with no restrictions. Likewise it can be ridden while in the circle, so long as it doesn't attack the devil directly, without invalidating the spell.

[rorek55]

Derek Dalton wrote:

The rules for the duel are also rather clear. Once the duel commences the cavalier is on his own. He can't recieve any outside help in any way. So if the fight is between him and him only and the devil if his mount steps into the arena area the duel is over with the cavalier viewed as a cheater

If the fighter is on his own, him and only him, then any items he brings into the duel are outside aid, as they are not him. Therefore he is viewed as a cheater and is forfeit in the duel.

Does that sound ridiculous? It should. Same with saying the mount is outside help. Now, if the devil was making the rules of the duel, this would likely be a potential ruling. haha.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Duels usually have terms that are agreed to by both parties. The use of a mount would simply be another term. Give the devil an appropriate mount and have the duel be a joust.

[David knott 242]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Duels usually have terms that are agreed to by both parties. The use of a mount would simply be another term. Give the devil an appropriate mount and have the duel be a joust.

The devil is summoned to fight and not given a choice. The only rules are those either inherent to the spell that summons the devil or those imposed by the hellknights administering the test.

And the way the rules for qualifying for the prestige class are given, a hellknight candidate could qualify by killing a devil "in the field" while a senior hellknight happens to be around.

[Mysterious Stranger]

It’s not the devil that is agreeing to the terms it is the Hellknights. Ultimately they are the ones who decided if someone is worthy of joining their ranks. If they think that cavalier fighting on horseback is a valid test then it is, if they don’t it is not.