This may sound dumb, but is there any rules text for or against using a body part in a manner that is akin to a Natural Attack, as an Improvised Weapon?

[Reksew_Trebla]

So, the example I have is the fact that you are clearly physically able to bite someone, even if you aren’t trained to do so (ie, don’t have a bite attack). Your bite isn’t meant to attack people normally, so this means it should be an Improvised Weapon.

But is there any rules text for or against being able to do this? Obviously you couldn’t do an improvised tail slap if you don’t have a tail, but most creatures do have a mouth full of teeth, and unless recently trimmed, most humanoids have fingernails that could be used like a claw attack.

I don’t think there is any support for doing this, but this gets done all the time in real life, so I was hoping maybe I missed something. Like, anybody remember the time Mike Tyson bit part of someone’s ear off in a boxing match? I do.

[VoodistMonk]

I think there are so many feats and abilities that grant those attacks, that they just aren't allowed otherwise.

Or it is handled exactly like an untrained unarmed attack... provokes AoO, and only does nonlethal damage...

[Reksew_Trebla]

VoodistMonk wrote:

I think there are so many feats and abilities that grant those attacks, that they just aren't allowed otherwise.

Or it is handled exactly like an untrained unarmed attack... provokes AoO, and only does nonlethal damage...

I was thinking it’d be like the inverse of a horse’s hoof attacks, in that like how the horse’s hooves become primary natural weapons if they are combat trained, when they normally are always a secondary natural weapon for everyone, a natural weapon used as an improvised weapon would always be treated as a secondary attack, plus having the -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.

But yeah, I don’t think there is any way to do this.

[Quixote]

I think it's called an Unarmed Strike.

[Reksew_Trebla]

Quixote wrote:

I think it's called an Unarmed Strike.

So how do you do Slashing/Piercing damage with an Unarmed Strike, then? You can’t (aside from that one feat that let’s you change the damage type on weapons).

But an improvised bite would be able to deal piercing damage, and an improvised claw would be able to deal slashing damage.

[Quixote]

Snake Style, Tiger Style, etc?

Personally, I've never seen someone get *scratched* by another human being to the point that it was a serious injury. And a human bite is just blunt. Sure, you could lose a finger, but put your hand on a table and give me a hammer, and I'll show you what "bludgeoning" damage can do.

[VoodistMonk]

This seems to have spiraled off the deep end quickly...

If we considered improvised natural attacks unarmed strikes, and treated them as such... how would you deal piercing or slashing damage? You wouldn't. Consider it a drawback of using improvised natural attacks.

Yes, human fingernails can scratch, possibly even draw blood. Bleeding does not equate to severe injury, though. It is but a scratch. You know, like nonlethal damage from an untrained unarmed strike... and literally nobody cares if nonlethal damage is bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing...

I think the hammer referrence was saying a blunt force impact from a hammer could remove a finger, same as a bite... still just bludgeoning damage. Still treat it exactly like an untrained unarmed strike.

[Derklord]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

Your bite isn’t meant to attack people normally, so this means it should be an Improvised Weapon.

But is there any rules text for or against being able to do this?

"Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object." CRB pg. 144, emphasis mine.

A body part that can be used and deals piercing or slashing damage is a natural weapon. If it's not a natural weapon, than it's not a body part that can be used to make attacks that deal piercing or slashing damage with.
Fingernails are not even close to claws, the nails aren't sharp or pointy enough and would break off. A human bite is very weak (the space stronger jaw muscles used to occupy is now filled with brain), and the mouth doesn't open wide enough to do much damage anyway.

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

Like, anybody remember the time Mike Tyson bit part of someone’s ear off in a boxing match? I do.

Yeah, and Evander Holyfield died from that. Oh wait, he didn't, because biting the ear off is not a serious injury. And probably wouldn't work against most creatures anyway, or when not in a fight closely regulated by rules that prevent the opponent from plucking your eyes out when you try to bite them.

Unprotected humans are uncharacteristically easy to injure, especially when they aren't properly defending themself and the attacker can hit the softest parts, because wearing clothes was a bigger evolutionary advantage than e.g. fur.

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

Especially when it is incredibly hard to even break bones with a punch.

Which is why you can't deal lethal damage without training.

[WagnerSika]

It is easy to break bones with a punch, especially if you are untrained. Too bad the bones that break, are the ones in your punching hand.

[yukongil]

I think it was a 3rd edition Dungeon scenario that took place in a sanitarium that had a crazy lady with long nails that they used as improvised natural attacks essentially. She did slashing and her penalty to hit was pretty high. But this was 15+ years ago, so I might be remembering wrong.

[Quixote]

VoodistMonk wrote:

This seems to have spiraled off the deep end quickly...

I would agree, and apologize if anything I said was triggering.

I've worked In EMS for a number of years and have seen injuries that range from severe to horrific to straight-up surreal, so I think I understand the difficulties associated with such, at least a little.

VoodistMonk wrote:

Yes, human fingernails can scratch, possibly even draw blood. Bleeding does not equate to severe injury, though...

...I think the hammer referrence was saying a blunt force impact from a hammer could remove a finger, same as a bite... still just bludgeoning damage. Still treat it exactly like an untrained unarmed strike.

Exactly my point on both counts, thank you.

If I might ask the OP, is this just a thought exercise, or are you trying to accomplish something specific? The title of the thread is basically a paragraph, but the first post doesn't really outline an end goal or purpose, so it's hard to know exactly what we're discussing.

[Claxon]

What can happen or has happened (along with what can't) don't really have any bearing to the game.

You want to make an attack with a body part but not use it as a natural attack (or can't because you don't have one) then it's an unarmed strike. Simple as that.

Don't make things complicated.

[Diego Rossi]

Now that we know what you want, there are a few archetypes that do something similar, it all depends on what class you will pick.

You can find some searching through the archetypes on Archive of Nethys with the keyword: Feral. I am sure that people can suggest other archetypes that do that.

That said, you have been decidedly aggressive in your replies against completely normal posts. Tone it down.

[ErichAD]

True Primitive Barbarian
Feral Child Druid
Wild Child Brawler

Those are the few I can think of.

I think the focus on translating real world damage to the damage type mechanic is causing some confusion. Any damage done with a great axe is considered slashing even though real life damage from a great axe is going to be as much crushing as slashing.

[yukongil]

ErichAD wrote:

True Primitive Barbarian

Feral Child Druid
Wild Child Brawler

Those are the few I can think of.

I think the focus on translating real world damage to the damage type mechanic is causing some confusion. Any damage done with a great axe is considered slashing even though real life damage from a great axe is going to be as much crushing as slashing.

I think this is a really good point. I think the best way to think of how such an attack would effect an object. Like do you think a person with normal person fingernails could ever cut thru a rope with them?

[Heather F]

I have removed a few posts and quoted content. Don't go around the profanity filter, and remember to use a respectful tone when speaking with each other.

[Hugo Rune]

Looks like I got to this thread late and missed all the fun. Yeah an improvised natural weapon is an unarmed strike. The body part used is fluff.