Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Humans - which are supposed to be the most common ancestry overall - have not had new feats in quite some time.
Yeah, I have to disagree here.
Humans do not need and should not get new feats. They already have what is probably the best and widest selection of options in the whole game, including access to two exclusive versatile heritages, one of which grants them access to a selection of feats from an uncommon ancestry (orc).
They also have the unique opportunity to pick not just 1, but 2 feats from general feats at character creation, should they so choose - and a unique option of picking a class feat as an ancestry feat. One or two of those general feats can be used to gain access to a lot of other ancestry feats through adopted ancestry and frankly, that feat is so cumbersome to utilize otherwise that it might as well have "human" as a prerequisite. (humans can get an ancestry feat from another ancestry by picking general feat -> adopted ancestry at 1st level, and general feat -> ancestral paragon at 3rd level. any and all other ancestries need to spend 3rd level general feat plus 5th level ancestry feat if they want to access feats from other ancestries, and then they are sacrificing their 5th level ancestry feat for it... Which makes one question, why didn't you pick the adopted ancestry as your original ancestry).
I'm Extremely glad that Ancestry Guide focused only on the uncommon and rare ancestries. I would have loved if it had given even more options for the newer ancestries, because uncommon options such as Tiefling and Aasimar were pretty dead and dry on arrival, with next to no useful (mechanically) or interesting options. (I think the book could have been split 75/25, with more space dedicated to new options for old ancestries instead of new ancestries, but I'm not really complaining - There's lots of interesting new options in the book!)
Also, Eric has some really good ideas. 40 AcP grant for new players would be awesome (or even 20 or 30!), as would "double AcP for your first 5 games GM'd".
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Last year I created my own Discord and Warhorn, and recently broke with my half-decade habit of GMing on Google Slides to transition to Roll20. I work overnights, but with an ample international gaming community I can offer games when it's convenient for me and still easily find players. And I've had no shortage of interest.
If you want to GM, but feel intimidated by all of the tech, shoot me a PM and I'll happily walk you through setting up your own pages. I can even give you GM control of one of my Roll20 tables to show you some of the tips and tricks I've learned to make things go smoother. If you'd like feedback for your first game or two, happy to help there as well.
I recognize GMing isn't for everyone, but sometimes the problem is just overcoming the barriers.
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I personally hope races the society works on recruting will become more common, but I expect it will take more than a year or two. (In world Pathfinder society has been courting the Kobolds and Goblins for something like 8-10 years)
And apparently all the Tengu, kitsune, aasimar, tiefling, elemental ancestries, etc. that were part of the Society 'mysteriously' died off.
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Those of us who have played since launch actually got a major advantage over those starting now.For the first year or so we were accumulating ACP with nowhere to spend those points. By the time we could actually use those ACP
1) we had a bunch saved up
2) we probably already had a stable of characters of varying levels and so had relatively little desire to create new characters.
I'm not feeling this argument. Especially when others' arguments are new players shouldn't have to "play a boring race just to get access to a cool race." That first year or more, we all were "stuck" with "boring" races to play until the one we wanted was published (if it even has been yet).
New players potentially have to play fewer games with Core ancestries than early adopters.
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(In world Pathfinder society has been courting the Kobolds and Goblins for something like 8-10 years)
Well, I'll grant you that the society was allied with one particular tribe of Kobolds for awhile. And Kobolds have always fallen into the "can often deal with the pesky buggers, don't have to ALWAYS kill them" camp.
But goblins? No, I don't see that. I was one of the players who found it quite jarring how much the last season of PFS1 suddenly tried to rehabilitate goblins from the evil pyromaniac 11 year olds on a sugar rush that really should be killed on sight they'd always been. It felt very, very forced and was clearly a significant world change thrown into PFS1 to help us adjust to the coming PF2.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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If you want to play a rare ancestries cheap, play a home game. I agree with the cost involved. The cost is not unreasonable as others have shown.some of us don't have the luxury of a steady group of players, or even a steady game night. I am sick and tired of people, usually venture officers, bringing this up as a way to justify the existing policies. do you really thing that this commentary is helpful to the discussion at hand?
I don't like the same people constantly complaining about how society play is setup. To me, some people want everything. To me, that is a home game.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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The cost is not unreasonable as others have shown.This hasn't been shown and is a matter of opinion. An opinion mostly shared by people with 3 or more purple stars by their names. The 1% usually thinks everything is fine I suppose.
Math is math. I can't help it if you don't like the results.
I think the amount needed to access the uncommon and rare options are reasonable.
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Going back to the original question, I don't think so. My first lodge formed at the start of season 6. It was in the middle of nowhere with 8 active to semi-active players. Any con with GM support was 2.5+ hours away and often required an overnight trip. A lot of players felt it was unfair to have to pay out of pocket to attend a con, and then also have to GM for race boons, so they didn't. We also had players who refused outright to GM even at a local level. For those players, with their perspective, non-common races are more available than ever before.
Yes, other races opened up as time went on back in 1e, and I believe this will continue until 2e.In the moment, however, as long as you're participating in org play, you're still progressing toward unlocking something, even if you don't have the time to prep, can't play regularly, or otherwise feel uncomfortable GM'ing. You can have a kobold and play 20 games, 10 con or RSP games, or 7 premium support games for your first locked uncommon.
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(In world Pathfinder society has been courting the Kobolds and Goblins for something like 8-10 years)Well, I'll grant you that the society was allied with one particular tribe of Kobolds for awhile. And Kobolds have always fallen into the "can often deal with the pesky buggers, don't have to ALWAYS kill them" camp.
But goblins? No, I don't see that. I was one of the players who found it quite jarring how much the last season of PFS1 suddenly tried to rehabilitate goblins from the evil pyromaniac 11 year olds on a sugar rush that really should be killed on sight they'd always been. It felt very, very forced and was clearly a significant world change thrown into PFS1 to help us adjust to the coming PF2.
Huh?
Frost Fur Captives which is where the Ice Ferry Goblins comd from is season 3-01.Rise of the Goblin Guild is 4-01
Paizo has literally been reshaping the image of goblins for over 10 years.
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And apparently all the Tengu, kitsune, aasimar, tiefling, elemental ancestries, etc. that were part of the Society 'mysteriously' died off.I personally hope races the society works on recruting will become more common, but I expect it will take more than a year or two. (In world Pathfinder society has been courting the Kobolds and Goblins for something like 8-10 years)
No. Tiefling and Assimar were "common" for 3 seasons, when the plot centered on the world wound, and then went back to being unavailable.
Elemental ancestries were common during the "untouchable Opal" when every second or third scenario was in the elemental planes.
The Tien races were common when the bulk of the plot focused around Amara Li founding the lantern lodge.
Right now the bulk of the plot centers around Absalom, and Northern Avistan, and the common races are the ones common to those places.
All those other ancestries are still in the society, but they are uncommon outside their homelands.
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hmm, I wonder what math method formula you used to calculate that. please show your work for the rest of us?
I assume he used (80/4)/3 = one 7th level character
Or ((40/4)/3)+(40/4)/3) = two 4th level charactersI personally use 80/12 = 7 games GMed at GenCon
Or 120/10 = 12 RSP games GMed
Or 20/4 = 5 = 1 in 5 tables guarantees a boon equivalent or better > 1 in 10 RSP table boon chance on random dice roll
Plus a free 4-6 AcP every time I play a game
However, I do understand the point of your argument: the math does not answer the subjective assessment of "unreasonable cost," which is a different, individual assessment for each person.
As someone who obtained his PFS access to non-Always Available races by GMing 7+ games at GenCon and whose home region PFS VOs opted out of RSP once RSP released Aasimar/Tieflings because they didn't like Aasimar/Tieflings, I find the current system far better, even if being limited to asynchronous play slows my accumulation of AcP, and I wouldn't mind a 10-15% discount on prices for it to subjectively feel like I'm on par with people playing synchronous games and attending online conventions.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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hmm, I wonder what math method formula you used to calculate that. please show your work for the rest of us?The cost is not unreasonable as others have shown.This hasn't been shown and is a matter of opinion. An opinion mostly shared by people with 3 or more purple stars by their names. The 1% usually thinks everything is fine I suppose.Math is math. I can't help it if you don't like the results.
I think the amount needed to access the uncommon and rare options are reasonable.
Already done. Not going to do it again.
The problem is that I think the amount of ACP needed is reasonable. You don't. What amount of ACP is reasonable to you? I don't recall you giving a number. Give us one. Maybe I will think that is reasonable.
Or do you want everything right out the door, just like a home game?
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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As we have been discussing the impact to "new players" Nothing I am proposing affects anyone here on these boards. My suggestion would be a one-time grant of ~40 AcP upon registering on Paizon.com for the first time, and expressly non-retroactive. Enough for a new player to use a single uncommon option. Not that my opinion matters.
First, yes your opinion matters. Please don't play the victim.
Second, seems you are asking for a "Welcome to Pathfinder Society, version 2e".
I guess I don't see a problem with this idea if limited to the -2001 character. The challenge is doing it on the website so the player can go into the ACP system to download the needed boon. Website change takes a very long time for many different reasons.
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Huh?
Frost Fur Captives which is where the Ice Ferry Goblins comd from is season 3-01.Rise of the Goblin Guild is 4-01
Paizo has literally been reshaping the image of goblins for over 10 years.
You see those as reshaping the image of goblins? I certainly don't. I see them as essentially cementing the image of goblins as evil monsters to be killed on sight.
In 3-01 the goblins have value ONLY because they have information. And they're certainly portrayed as 11 year old pyromaniacs on a sugar rush.
4-01 is closer to reshaping. But there is ONE goblin who the PCs MAY bond with a little, a single goblin who is quite clearly shown to be VERY unusual for her people. Almost all the module consists of going into a lair of evil goblins and killing them all and taking their stuff.
Of course, as always a LOT is going to depend on how the GM decides to portray the NPCs and how the players react. I've run Rise quite a few times and always tried hard to make Ekkie sympathetic. About 1/2 the time at least one PC basically "adopted" Ekkie. The rest of the time ALL the PCs just grudgingly went along with the railroad but interacted with Ekkie the absolute minimum possible amount.
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I like the initial 40 AcP "gift" to new players, because it also happens to be the amount needed to get a resurrection if they get a few games in and suddenly have their only character killed.
I think the campaign has tried different ways to address this, like granting double AcP for the Beginner Box. But I'm not quite sure any of those efforts have hit the mark for addressing the problem and have largely amounted to the rich get richer. Ie. the players/GMs who play a lot end up with even more AcP, but the new players still struggle to get enough for anything useful.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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What is the downside for Paizo if they allow all races open to all players immediately?
I can see only upsides. If I buy a cool book and love the options and want to play this organized play thing I've heard of, show up only to discover 'No you can't play that until you've been playing for x sessions', then I am unsure as to whether I come back. Sure I can play a pregen and maybe I have fun. Maybe I am turned off by the idea that I just spent money on a book I cannot use in their official campaign. Maybe I find a home group? Maybe I play online? Maybe I decide to go play something else?
But if the Org Play program is Paizo's best advertising (and I say it is) then it's not serving their interests to lock cool options behind an ACP system.
I get it's not rewarding existing players who did put in the time and effort to get ACP, but honestly? It really doesn't bother me that much. Recreate boons into special bonuses like PFS1e and go that way. Or lock advanced options, like special ancestries made for PFS away behind the ACP gate. Or unique spells? Or unique magic items? Or cool tattoos? Or magical services like resurrection.
I just don't see the downside to opening up the cantina feel to all players. It seems like it can only expand the player base.
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Huh?
Frost Fur Captives which is where the Ice Ferry Goblins comd from is season 3-01.Rise of the Goblin Guild is 4-01
Paizo has literally been reshaping the image of goblins for over 10 years.
You see those as reshaping the image of goblins? I certainly don't. I see them as essentially cementing the image of goblins as evil monsters to be killed on sight.
In 3-01 the goblins have value ONLY because they have information. And they're certainly portrayed as 11 year old pyromaniacs on a sugar rush.
4-01 is closer to reshaping. But there is ONE goblin who the PCs MAY bond with a little, a single goblin who is quite clearly shown to be VERY unusual for her people. Almost all the module consists of going into a lair of evil goblins and killing them all and taking their stuff.
Of course, as always a LOT is going to depend on how the GM decides to portray the NPCs and how the players react. I've run Rise quite a few times and always tried hard to make Ekkie sympathetic. About 1/2 the time at least one PC basically "adopted" Ekkie. The rest of the time ALL the PCs just grudgingly went along with the railroad but interacted with Ekkie the absolute minimum possible amount.
Yeah, most people I have played with or GMed 3-01 bonded at least a little with the goblins and felt that while the *society* only valued them for their information, they were adorable little terrors, who may be out of control and need supervision, but didn't need killing.
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Recreate boons into special bonuses like PFS1e and go that way.
This doesn't work. There are only three bonus types, circumstance, item, and status. Boons would almost *have* to be circumstance, and therefore would not stack with 90% of character options.
Or lock advanced options, like special ancestries made for PFS away behind the ACP gate.
There are not any special ancestries made for PFS, and almost certainly won't be. An SF ancestry is a single 1/2 column side bar. A PF ancestry would need about 5 pages (because you need a minimum of ~12 feats, and 4 ancestries.)
There is no where near the band width to create that in a PFS scenario.
Or unique spells? Or unique magic items? Or cool tattoos? Or magical services like resurrection.
These already exist as AcP boons.
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Sorry for the wall of text. I was not prepared for the activity and waiting too long to check back in. In order to allow readers better view of the entire thread, I will hide my wall behind a spoiler tag. There is nothing actually spoilery in it, just for convenience.
You and Paizo are assuming desire to play is the only problem
That's because generally speaking, it is. We all make choices in life. Whether that be family, work, taking a walk, going to the movies, watch tv, mow the lawn, etc. Not just with gaming, everything has an opportunity cost. The reality is everything you put ahead of gaming, while perfectly reasonable, is a choice not to game. That does not mean you don't have the opportunity or access. It means you have decided to choose something else over the game. What one person values above gaming is not the same as the next person so org play leadership cannot be overly focused on every possible bullet point that an individual can use as an obstacle. The simple fact is there is online play virtually every day of the week and on a day when you don't find a scheduled game you can almost always post an interest in a game and there will be a free GM ready to run something. It becomes increasingly difficult to find a game as we layer on our personal restrictions, like only playing with friends, only playing live, only playing on certain days or times, etc.
It's the start up time that is an issue
I find that to be a somewhat misleading comparison. New players who want the AcP boons can save up exactly the same as we did. If this is a valid idea, then I would say they have an advantage over us in that they have the ability to start to buy boons almost immediately while we had to wait a year. I had enough AcP earned to buy a race boon long before the race boons were available. So, a new player has the ability to get one faster than we did.
...and be turned away from this could be quite discouraging
We are a welcoming community and do A LOT already to try and help onboard players, but we really need to stop using "but the player might leave" as some kind of trump card that negates all other concerns. If we truly want that to be THE most important item, them there are a lot of other rules we should get rid of because they might cause a player to reconsider.
40 AcP "gift" to new players
I think we'll find a lot more support for this than an arbitrary change in the AcP costs. It maintains the "special" nature of the boons so they can continue to be an incentive for GM recruiting, while also giving new players something shiny. Kind of like setting the hook and reeling them into the PFS community. If they want a special race, they are half way there so why not keep going? Not to mention it doesn't give "new" players any advantage over existing ones. Everyone would receive the reward. That's fair and equitable.
Course, as mentioned above, it might require some website updates which we know are generally a year or more for org play. I would think all it would take is writing a few lines of code that automatically add one-time 40 AcP award to the -2001 character of all players. Seems easy enough.
What is the downside for Paizo if they allow all races open to all players immediately?
One of the main issues would be the loss of the incentive for GM recruiting. Yes, there are still other boons, but the race boons tend to be especially juicy to GMs. It everyone gets all the specials at the start, there is much less inventive for GMs to volunteer their time. This is especially damaging to local lodges and small regional conventions.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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Interesting data point:
PFS2 has:
35 Ancestries and Heritages.
20% are always available.
80% (18) are unlockable by playing or GMing a certain amount.
SFS has:
122 species playable as PCs
18.8% are always available.
8.1% are about to become unlockable by playing or GMing a certain amount.
30% are currently available as semi random rewards. Some of which *also* require playing a certain amount in addition. (I have some that require 30 scenarios of play to unlock...)
The remaining 42% are unavailable.
PFS1 has:
74 races playable as PCs
20% are always available (Assuming I counted correctly).
16% can be accessed via semi random boons. (I am not counting goblin or other "super rare" boons)
the remaining 64% are unavailable at any price.
PFS2 has *far and away* the most access to races of any previous campaign.
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so why discuss the existing player base at all.
I present for your consideration the infrequent player who has earned 12 AcP since he started playing 2 years ago.
It seems like a not insignificant number are willing to discuss how they have saved up for their ancestries and other such boons
Let me introduce you to the concept of sampling bias. The answer you get depends upon the population in which you ask the question. If you ask the question on the board, you’re going to get a disproportionate number of responses from a population not reflective of the player base as a whole.m
Your “not insignificant” number is like... six?
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My solution would be 40 AcP upon starting a New PFS number.
I think that would be a mistake.
While it wouldn't (or, at least, shouldn't) bother those of us who have several hundred ACP accumulated I think that would REALLY upset the people who joined last week or last month and have slowly accumulated 10 or 40 ACP.
Far easier to give it to EVERYBODY. The simple reality is that they're worth a lot more to the new players any way in practical terms.
Contributor
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Also I'd be in favor of a boon that let you buy say 1 uncommon ancestry from say the ancestry guide for only 40 acp. One time only.
Let's make this idea both tech-friendly and completely equitable. Instead of a one-time discount (which I think would be hard to implement) add a zero-cost ACP boon that gifts you with 40 ACP. It does not matter if you are new or if you have been GMing PF2 at the system launch. You can click a button to get a one-time boost of 40 ACP, allowing a new player to get a res or get halfway to an uncommon race of their choice.
Since it's available to everyone, established players won't gripe that the new people are getting a toy that they aren't. But available once, it will give new players a head start and help shorten the wait to play something weird.
EDIT: I was ninja'd by Paul! But the idea still stands.
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The reality is everything you put ahead of gaming, while perfectly reasonable, is a choice not to game. That does not mean you don't have the opportunity or access. It means you have decided to choose something else over the game.
That is an astoundingly large pile arrogant horse fritters. You can choose to put aside family,friends,and other obligations, but you don't so tough luck? If you don't rank gaming as the most important thing in your life you don't deserve to play the character you want? I am dumbstruck by the assumption and inability to see another point of view in that paragraph.
...then I would say they have an advantage over us in that they have the ability to start to buy boons almost immediately while we had to wait a year. I had enough AcP earned to buy a race boon long before the race boons were available.
Nonsense. All "math" shows it takes a year to earn enough for a boon. You had the advantage of not knowing what you were missing.
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Interesting data point:
PFS2 has:
35 Ancestries and Heritages.
20% are always available.
80% (18) are unlockable by playing or GMing a certain amount.SFS has:
122 species playable as PCs
18.8% are always available.
PFS2 has *far and away* the most access to races of any previous campaign.
Math isn't my strong suit so...
PF2 has 9 ancestries always available including half elf/orc + kobold.
SFS has 23 species always available.
Most access goes to...
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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I’ve been involved with PFS since 2011. In that time, as a player and GM for PF1, PF2, and SFS, I have had the opportunity to earn I don’t know how many boons, prizes, and AcPs. Because of the pandemic, I haven’t played in-person gaming in over a year, and I have only run/GM’ed very few online games (Online gaming just isn’t my thing.)
I remember what it was like to be a new player in PF1 - I didn’t know anybody and unless I took the initiative to get to know people by playing/GMing, that wasn’t going to change.
Organized play is easy to get into for the people who generally know that’s what they want to do, and who have the time and drive to make the most of it. Sometimes, people want to be a bit more casual, too. And all fo that is fine.
As a former Venture-Captain, recruiting new players and getting them to keep playing was part of my job. And it hasn’t always been easy. Sometimes it’s not a good fit for people. And that’s okay, too.
In reading this thread, I have to say that I don’t think I support the idea of reducing the costs for the ancestry boons for PF2. The costs seem reasonable to me. But, the idea of giving new players 40 AcPs as a “welcome to the society” gift? I think that’s entirely reasonable. And I’m okay that it not be made retroactive. It still would require them to play or GM, but it also puts them closer to a boon, and I think that’s a good thing.
I don’t know why that is so controversial. And, I’m even okay that it not be retroactive - just make it for new players only. Maybe that’s the controversial part?
This isn’t a fraternity or sorority - we aren’t asking new players to go through some sort of pledge period and proving to us that they are worthy of something. We want to get more players and we want them to stick around. To me, a 40 AcP boon is really an investment in a player. If they stick around, great! And if not, we aren’t out anything. That seems win-win to me.
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The reality is everything you put ahead of gaming, while perfectly reasonable, is a choice not to game. That does not mean you don't have the opportunity or access. It means you have decided to choose something else over the game.That is an astoundingly large pile arrogant horse fritters.
No. It's not.
Opportunity cost is something we all deal with.
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Contributor
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Is 80 ACP too high a barrier for new players to earn a new race? Man, there is so much to unpack here. Let's look at the ideas in turn.
"There are a lot of cool options already available between the CRB races and Kobolds."
I have to agree that having an exotic race does not guarantee that your character will be any more fun than a character built from a common race, and there are a ton of interesting character options in the common races. But I think that whether a new player is excited about the options available is a matter of presentation and expectations. When I started my boyscout PF2 gaming group, I bought two hardcover copies of the CRB and said, "Here are your character options. Pick what you want to play from this book."
I deliberately started the boys off with the CRB to limit choice paralysis and to prevent the kids from pining after options they could not pursue right away. It worked well. One was SUPER excited that he could play a goblin with the blood of a dragon -- his draconic sorcerer. He likes to shout, "I AM A DRAGON!" to intimidate people. One decided that he wanted to be a half-elf medic, and built a ranger who divides his time between shooting things and healing his party. One went with half-orc as a monk but who likes to claim that he's a full orc because he takes after his orcish dad. (He also likes to steal everything in sight, which his Dad disapproves of, because Mom was from the wrong side of the tracks. His Dad is convinced that humans don't have good ethical foundations like orcs.) Then I got two gnomes. A gnome fighter who boldly charges into battle with his flickmace, and an gnome druid 'disney princess' who likes to sing in the woods with animal friends. Both gnomes took the bard archetype at second level, and the whole party breaks into musical numbers at odd moments.
These are all CRB-only concepts, and they're real characters and fun as heck. There is also a lot of depth and backstory in their concepts, and party interactions are a lot of fun.
That said...
When I told the boys we'd be playing a PFS campaign and that it would allow them to earn ACP that they could later use for boons, I got asked how many ACP something like Orc or Tengu (they were all enamored with tengu after playing Sundered Waves and Port Peril Pub Crawl) would cost. And then they asked me how much ACP they got per game. They did the math and concluded, "But... we'll never get there!"
Twenty games seemed to them as far as the moon. Fortunately, by the time we had the full ACP conversation, they had already gotten into the groove of their characters and are still geeking out over the cool things they can do. Eventually, I will be able to tell them, "Hey, remember when you said you'd never get to 80 ACP? Well, according to my calculations, we're there. If you want to start other characters, you can." But for now we've got a good chemistry with the characters they have.
Is 80 ACP too long to wait for a new player?
I actually think that it is. That's why I support the idea of the 0 ACP cost boon that would give you 40 ACP as a one time boost. It won't affect those of us who play and GM all the time that much, and it would be a nice boost for the new players.
But I also think we need to change our outlook that 'Rarer' is always 'Better.'
Because it isn't. I have six PF2 characters. One is pretty exotic -- my duskwalker elf. Then I have a goblin, a kobold and three gnomes. And my goodness, there are some fun and hilarious ancestry feats in the goblin, kobold and gnome ancestries. (There are also great feats amongst the other common ancestries, but I have trouble seeing them because gnomes exist. You know how that goes.)
Rare races are exciting -- partially because it takes sooooo long to earn one. Still, rarity is not what makes a great character. A great PFS character has several things that make them work:
1) They have an 'elevator pitch' that conveys their quirky individuality in a couple sentences. They know who they are, what they want, and they can pursue these ideals without ruining things for the rest of the party.
2) They have things they can do both in and out of combat to help the team.
3) They have mechanics that fit the 'fantasy concept' of the character.
OPTIONAL, BUT NICE
4) They fit in Golarian lore.
5) They're not only memorable, but they share the spotlight, helping other players roleplay and bring out their characters.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'd love to hear all of yours!
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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That's why I support the idea of the 0 ACP cost boon that would give you 40 ACP as a one time boost. It won't affect those of us who play and GM all the time that much, and it would be a nice boost for the new players.
If something like this was done, I would prefer the boon have a lock requiring about 3-5 games. At that point the person has probably shown enough interest to become involved in Society play.
Still a rather low bar, but it would take more commitment than just playing one quest at a convention.
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horse fritters
Call it whatever you want but opportunity cost is a significantly mainstream, accepted concept that applies to much wider subject matter than economics including this topic
All "math" shows it takes a year to earn enough for a boon
Guess I live in a universe that follows some other form of mathematics then as it took me less than a year to earn 80+ AcP. In fact, I believe I had enough AcP (in theory since the website wasn't working yet) for anything on the menu no later than the end of September given Gen Con followed by regular local games and a regional convention. YMMV
Is that fair?
...no
Life isn't fair
...not be retroactive...I don’t know why that is so controversial
Simple. If you don't give it to everyone, retroactively, and we assume for the moment that the issue of boon cost is actually driving players away, then when do you intend to set the start date for the new player boon? No matter when that occurs, you will catch players who just started prior to the date and are not eligible. Are they any less important than the newest n00bs? We can play that card back and back and back until the launch which is why if "fairness" is what you are after, it is the most fair to give the reward to everyone. Otherwise we go from complaining that the entry cost for new players is too high, to existing players complaining why they get cheated out of 40 AcP (or whatever the number would be) just because they didn't start playing yesterday.
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Interesting data point:
PFS2 has:
35 Ancestries and Heritages.
20% are always available.
80% (18) are unlockable by playing or GMing a certain amount.SFS has:
122 species playable as PCs
18.8% are always available.
PFS2 has *far and away* the most access to races of any previous campaign.
Math isn't my strong suit so...
PF2 has 9 ancestries always available including half elf/orc + kobold.
SFS has 23 species always available.Most access goes to...
(I was counting it as 7 out of 35. If you want to count Half elf and Half orc as seperate, then it becomes 9 out of 27.
9... out of *37*
Vs
23... out of *122*
The chances that the ancestry you want to play is available in PFS is 24%
The chances that the ancestry you want to play in SFS is 18%
I mean if there is one thing that this conversation has made clear, it is that the number of ancestries you can play but aren't your first choice doesn't matter.
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I think the fact that a bunch of the non-accessible races are effectively invisible, so that may be skewing perceptions of the math.
In addition, 24 Species options versus 9 Ancestries straight up means more options for 24 Species.
Factor in that half the races in Starfinder are 'invisible' (see above) then the Starfinder numbers could reasonably skew to something like 23 out of 61 (or even lower).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Most of us here started to play PFS2vwhen it started. The core races WERE the new shiny at the time. There was nothing for us to potentially be disappointed by. This is no longer the case. If someone were to buy the newest rulebook, become inspired by one of the options there in, and be turned away from this could be quite discouraging.
Counterpoint: if you haven't played before, -everything- is new and "shiny". If you aren't familiar with PFS2, what's the difference between Kitsune, Goblin and Kobolds? Two of them are available for free, none of them are among the 'usual' rpg races, one of them was always available in PFS1, one of them was super rare and hard to acquire, and one of them was made somewhat easily available at the end of PFS1. It all depends on what you're used to.
My suggestion would be a one-time grant of ~40 AcP
This is an awesome suggestion, and I think it would help with getting players (new and old) more familiar with the AcP system. Currently, it feels like some probably never visit the boon lists, and some people browse the list and other "my org. play" pages weekly. I think it would benefit the system as a whole, especially if it was redeemable from the boon tabs instead of an automatic grant.
upon registering on Paizon.com for the first time, and expressly non-retroactive.
This part, though, is terrible.
My first PFS game was around 2011 or so, I think, when I played my first game in PFS1 and registered online.Then I didn't play for 7 years.
Then I went to a con, played again, fell in love with the system, set up a local lodge with a friend, and got our local game groups involved in Society play. This suggestion would have meant that despite being complete newbie to the system back in... 2017 or so, I would not have qualified for a "new player, welcome to society" reward?
Likewise, my SO has played 3 games of PFS2. Is there a reason to make the system such that they should have to choose between keeping those 3 chronicles vs cheating the system by creating a second PFS number to get the 40 ACP (or in their case, extra 28) ACP points? There's also a bunch of players in our lodge who never joined PFS2 but played PFS1. They have PFS numbers. They may have even clicked to create their first PFS2 character number even though they haven't yet played any games. Why would you -not- give them 40acp too to incentivize joining PFS2 when they are clearly new players to the system?
Also, "Rich getting Richer", what? O.o
Rich getting richer refers to the fact that "you need money to make money", invest in stuff to get returns, owning capital to turn profit, and so on. This has -absolutely nothing- to do with AcP or society. Literally nothing. No matter how much AcP you have, you always earn AcP at the same rate. It doesn't matter if you've been playing for 10 years or 5 years or started yesterday, each and every game gives you exactly the same amount of acp, and the amount of games you can play is only limited by how much time you have available, and what other restrictions you set for yourself - whether you already have uncommon races or unspent acp does not affect that. This isn't a case where "by taxing those who already have lots of AcP, we can give the new players more AcP" because there's no limit on how much AcP we can have in circulation. There's literally no reason to exclude an arbitrary amount of players from whatever the solution is, based on a random criteria to determine who are "truly new players". The fact that I play weekly, and used to play twice or thrice a week, does not affect your ability to do so. Do I spend my 340 acp on a sprite ancestry (160acp) plus a iruxi+sylph (80+80=160) for a total cost of 320acp? Sure. Does that somehow prevent you from enjoying the game? Not in the slightest. Does it diminish your ability or chances of also making a sprite and an iruxi and a sylph? No. All you need to do is do what I do. Play and/or GM.
in PFS1, Race boons from Cons and the RSP system were one of the best ways to encourage people to step up and start GMing. PFS2 equivalent is the AcP system which is -vastly- better (aside from con GMing) because it's -quicker- to earn a boon, you can choose which one you earn, and you can earn them even if you don't GM. The current system is probably the best we've ever had. Yeah, I think you could snip 20 acp or 1/4th off of the prices, or give a grant of 40acp, or make some races more readily available (such as kobolds), but free uncommon ancestry boons of your chocie? Uh, no thanks. We need shiny things locked away behind a reasonable progression to keep incentivizing GMing.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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I want to emphasize that you should not talk about "time to acquire" in years or months, because that's not the relevant measurement here. If you play 0 games in a year, you get 0 rewards. If you play 10 games in a year, you get the same rewards as someone who plays 10 games in 3 months, or someone who plays 10 games in 3 weeks. Rewards aren't tied to "how long you've been a member", they are tied to "how many games you've played". Everybody earns roughly 1 achievement point per hour spent playing, and GM's are rewarded for their efforts by giving them 2 acp per hour spent gming. (Based on the assumption that scenarios should take roughly 4 hours and quests take roughly 1 hour). You aren't being "penalized" because you can't put in as much time as somebody else does - You lose exactly nothing, and they gain exactly nothing extra - you're both rewarded exactly the same amount per hour spent on this hobby.
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Since I originally threw out the rich getting richer comment I’ll explain. In this case, people are “rich” because they have lots of time to play, GM, etc. The additional awards that exist currently (double AcP for GMing, double AcP for the beginner box, extra AcP for conventions, even the drop everything and play this new one off this coming weekend for double AcP) are more readily accessible to the players who can already play more, GM more, or attend conventions. Ie., the “rich.” So, yes, it’s rich getting richer, because those things are less likely to help the brand new player, and more likely to give bonuses to those who are already rich in time to play/GM. Even the beginner box isn’t run that often (based on looking at Warhorn), so a new player is more likely to encounter a different scenario first at the moment, where the super involved players can choose to schedule it themselves if they need the extra AcP. I’ve seen far more veterans scheduling/playing the beginner box than games specifically limited to new players. Though admittedly part of the nature of the product is that many of the times it’s run might not be publicly listed. (EDIT: There are 25 sessions on warhorn, and 23 of those are at PaizoCon. So 1 session of each part scheduled outside a huge convention)
As for measuring time to earn a boon in months or years, that’s absolutely relevant when dealing with a new player for all of the reasons people have stated. It shouldn’t be the only measure looked at, but I would certainly hope it was a consideration when the costs were set in the first place. Telling someone who just played their first game that they either need to commit to playing more than once a month (a reasonable amount for a casual player), or they have no hope of getting an ancestry boon for a year and a half is a major downer when you’re trying to get a new player excited. Those of us who play as much PFS as we can sometimes seem to forget that one of the best things about PFS is that it’s a realistic option for casual players.
All of that is why I like the 40 AcP idea. It gives new players a bonus, which usually feels good,.It also gives them insurance against something random killing their character after their first few games, and it shortens their time to getting some of the more expensive boons (ancestry or otherwise) without greatly impacting the time it takes an established player to get their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th expensive boon.
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There seems to be a lot of support for the "40 ACP up front" plan.
I forget who's idea this was (and am too lazy to look :-)) but it is a great idea
Speaking for myself, although I definitely think that it would be better to apply this to ALL players I'd most definitely prefer such a boon to only apply to new players than for such a boon to never be created.
There's a perspective I'm not seeing here that isn't just "Society", but may be relevant.
I've had a fair number of younger players come to me with a request to make a specific fictional character. They're just getting into ttRPGs and they don't really care about the differences between D&D and Pathfinder. They just want to be able to play a specific comic book or manga character.
Often, that requires allowing them access to uncommon or rare ancestries. Not being hampered by Society gatekeeping, I'm able to help them do exactly that. I don't have to limit their enthusiasm or imagination by saying "Even though it's allowed by the game rules, you can't play that character".
Which is why I find the hurdle "a lock requiring about 3-5 games" to be worse than the current rules of "newcomers don't get any incentives". If you're looking to create long-term fans, harnessing that excitement of "I can play my favorite hero" goes a long way.
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There seems to be a lot of support for the "40 ACP up front" plan.
I forget who's idea this was (and am too lazy to look :-)) but it is a great idea
Speaking for myself, although I definitely think that it would be better to apply this to ALL players I'd most definitely prefer such a boon to only apply to new players than for such a boon to never be created.
We’re getting into (slightly) more complicated programming, but granting it to people who have earned less than a certain amount of total AcP (call it 80, since that’s an ancestry boon) should be possible and might be a compromise. But you’ll always have someone who feels left out or cheated in that situation. It at least wouldn’t cut out someone who starts a week before the change takes effect. I know locally we had a lot of players who were surprised to realize they had already been playing for almost two years and still didn’t have enough AcP for the boon they wanted when it finally got released.
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I would suggest a "Welcome to Pathfinder Society 2" boon that can be bought once per player at a discount (e.g. 40 AcP) that allows you to select an ancestry from a curated list of 80 AcP Uncommon ancestries (e.g. leshy, iruxi, orc and/or tengu, kitsune, geniekin).
That doesn't require any programming (the 1 per player "function" is already in place), it doesn't require figuring out how to infuse accounts/new accounts with AcP, and it requires the same amount of effort to earn an Uncommon ancestry as if the player did receive an infusion of AcP.
You wouldn't have faster access to Second Chance and you couldn't use it to buy Avid Collector or Esoteric Spellcaster, but I think the real point people are getting at are the ancestries. I would also not be applicable to either things not on the list or things that cost more than 80 AcP, which one could argue that leaves off the "one" thing I wanted, but I think it's a good compromise between tech and intent of the original suggestion.
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The simplest answer has the best chance of being implemented quickly. A curated list is going to take much longer to set up in the system. Awarding a flat 40 (or whatever) based on the registration of a -2001 PC is likely to be the easiest, cleanest, quickest solution that can still be maintained through the existing program.