What real world consequences would exist for Pathfinder mechanics?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Awhile ago, I posted how a Ring of Regeneration would regen your dying body from old age if it existed in real life, since it would regenerate the lost DNA, due to being a body part, and some people pointed out how it would also regenerate the cancer cells our bodies are constantly developing and killing.

I want more creative discussion like this.

For instance:

Fast Healing and/or Regeneration of at least 1 would cause your torn muscles from exercising to instantly heal. I’m not sure which of the following would be the result, but I believe one of these would happen:

1: Your muscles would never be able to grow, since before they have the chance to, they would have already closed up.

2: Your muscles would instantly grow, because of the sped up healing process.

Anybody have any more ideas on things like this?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

First and foremost, turn-based life would be like living in a stop motion animation. Lol.

The healing thing is interesting to speculate... as we have no actual idea of how or what is actually happening when magical healing is concerned. What, exactly, are the Hit Points being replaced... is it your life's blood? Magical healing stops Bleed, so we can assume that magical healing seals open cuts.

Does it replace lost blood? You still need that blood that you bled, even if the wound has now stopped bleeding. You are not back to full operational capacity until your body has replenished that blood.

Does a Ring of Regeneration just blindly regenerate everything? Or does it somehow "know"?

Does something like Channel Energy also heal muscles frayed from relatively "normal" everyday damage?

I don't know when it comes to magical healing, honestly... that leaves a lot of questions.

I do think the legal identification system would go bonkers if reincarnation and polymorph magic were real. Lol.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Traffic would be interesting, as everyone moves their full move on their turn. But as you can pass through an ally's space, crashes would be reduced substantially as long as you're on good terms with other road users.

Of course, range mods for perception would make fast driving very risky. A 1st level commoner with 12 Wisdom and no ranks in Perception taking 10 will "Notice a visible creature" (DC0) up to 110' away, ie 37 yards. That's not very far.

And driving at night would be even worse, with the way light behaves.


With the way running works marathons would be essentially impossible.

After 10 (average con) rounds (1 minute) you have to start making con checks...

After 10 more rounds you basically couldn't make the save anymore..


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The sun, moon and stars would suddenly become imperceptible. Watching live sports becomes a thing of the past. Visual flight rules for aircraft will need to be drastically revised.

Some will be considerably relieved that it will be much harder to accidentally kill people with a single shot. OTOH addiction will kill vast numbers.

There's been several schemes for improving interplanetary exploration via magic.

Any ability to speak to animals will make justifying raising animals for slaughter very, very hard.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I could see/attack anyone regardless of which direction I'm looking in because, in Pathfinder, facing isn't a thing.

Atheism would become nonexistent or less prevalent, as there is tangible evidence of multiple gods, only some used to be mortal.

A lot of technologies would never be developed like they are today. Why would you need airplanes when you can pay wizards to teleport you around?

The idea of "leveling up" in the real world would be so odd. You wake up one morning suddenly feeling healthier, powerful, and magical than you were yesterday. Oh, and now you know how to use a katana because you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency, even though you never even touched one a day in your life.

You can tell who is good and evil by just casting a tiny spell and looking around. I can see that having a lot of real-world problems.

You would reach terminal velocity after falling only 200 feet, much more survivable.

Armies would be under Mass Combat rules...may God have mercy on all involved!

But the biggest real-world consequence: ALL sea voyages would become super dangerous!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
KingGramJohnson wrote:
A lot of technologies would never be developed like they are today. Why would you need airplanes when you can pay wizards to teleport you around?

400GP for me to fly from Dublin (my closest airport) to Vienna (just under 1,000 miles - caster level x 100 miles for range) with a 3% failure rate doesn't seem great.

I can do that on a plane for €126 today with a much lower than 3% failure rate.

And that assumes we still allow chained summoner with early access to teleport and that the caster is 'very familiar' which requires it to eb somewhere they feel at home. Otherwise it goes up by 100GP.

So our flight is 4-5x the annual salary of a trained hireling or more than the annual salary of a doctor. Seems steep.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Carrauntoohil wrote:
KingGramJohnson wrote:
A lot of technologies would never be developed like they are today. Why would you need airplanes when you can pay wizards to teleport you around?

400GP for me to fly from Dublin (my closest airport) to Vienna (just under 1,000 miles - caster level x 100 miles for range) with a 3% failure rate doesn't seem great.

I can do that on a plane for €126 today with a much lower than 3% failure rate.

And that assumes we still allow chained summoner with early access to teleport and that the caster is 'very familiar', which requires it to eb somewhere they feel at home. Otherwise it goes up by 100GP.

So our flight is 4-5x the annual salary of a trained hireling or more than the annual salary of a doctor. Seems steep.

I see the point you're making, and from an economic standpoint, I might agree. However, that doesn't factor in the possibility that magic may become more reliable or cheaper in a modern world and the type of currency used, as we don't use gold coins in the real world.

However, aside from the economic factor, there are other things to consider, such as time. To use your example, a flight from Dublin to Vienna is approximately 3 hours, 4-5 if there's a short layover, which many flights have. That's fast, don't get me wrong, but it's not instantaneously fast. Time is a commodity I value; I will take a flight rather than drive if it means I can spend more time at my destination.

There's also the fact that you can directly go to where you need to be. Because we're assuming Pathfinder rules in the real modern world, I think it's plausible to believe those travel wizards would have many locations that they are "very familiar" with, and thus reducing the risk of teleport mishaps. Even if someone is paying a travel wizard to go somewhere more remote, they can get reasonably close. Heck, a person can bring them a picture of the place they want to go that's not a city or landmark and get there reasonably well (so long as nothing is interfering with the magic). Show me a commercial airport that can do that.

Unlike airports, with teleporting travel wizards, time of day and weather is not a factor. Wizards don't need to coordinate with other wizards with taking off and landing. There are no delays (which add more time to the trip), and cancelations are less likely.

Also, though air travel is very, very safe, it's not without risk either. At least with teleport, if something goes wrong, you end up in the wrong spot, and I guess that most wizards will have many uses of teleport a day to try again (at no extra cost to the paying customer, because that's only fair). Some of the wizards might even use greater teleport so that there's no range limit.

The TL;DR of this is: Money isn't the only factor to a worldwide wizard traveling agency possibly being better than modern air travel.


KingGramJohnson wrote:
I see the point you're making, and from an economic standpoint, I might agree. However, that doesn't factor in the possibility that magic may become more reliable or cheaper in a modern world and the type of currency used, as we don't use gold coins in the real world.

That is not Pathfinder mechanics and is not relevant to this discussion where both price and chance of error are RAW.

I've factored in cost and currency based on daily earnings. If you have a better suggestion, I'm open to it. But all we have to go on is RAW.

Quote:
However, aside from the economic factor, there are other things to consider, such as time. To use your example, a flight from Dublin to Vienna is approximately 3 hours, 4-5 if there's a short layover[...]Time is a commodity I value; I will take a flight rather than drive if it means I can spend more time at my destination.

Layovers aren't really a thing for EU flights, and that price was direct in any case. It is also significantly less than the annual salary for a doctor IRL. Is your time worth paying over €90,000 just for a single teleport to save, maybe 6 hours. What's your hourly rate and is your company hiring????

The rules for hirelings and services note that a doctor makes 1GP/day. So the teleport is, at its cheapest (and assuming UCSummoner), still more than a year's salary for a well-paid professional. Lawyers make 10GP/day. Still over 10% of a year's salary to make a 1-way teleport. Whereas, minimum wage in Ireland is two-thirds of that flight cost in a day.

Quote:
There's also the fact that you can directly go to where you need to be. Because we're assuming Pathfinder rules in the real modern world, I think it's plausible to believe those travel wizards would have many locations that they are "very familiar" with, and thus reducing the risk of teleport mishaps.

Correction: You can maybe go directly where you need to be. For what is still a much higher cost. 'Very familiar' is still a 3% chance of mishap. I wouldn't accept that chance for a flight at even half the cost of the current flights. Would you? There's a reason Concorde isn't flying anymore, despite the added speed.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Carrauntoohil wrote:


That is not Pathfinder mechanics and is not relevant to this discussion where both price and chance of error are RAW.

I've factored in cost and currency based on daily earnings. If you have a better suggestion, I'm open to it. But all we have to go on is RAW

I wasn't using RAW, fair enough.

But I still see it this way: what is the consequence of teleport being a thing? Less need for air travel as we understand it. Airlines may still exist, but would they look like ours? Maybe not. The rich would probably hire wizards rather than own private jets. Yes, maybe the average Joe won't have the money to teleport all the time, but it's still an option. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it wouldn't exist. There's plenty of things the average person can't afford to do. Teslas are a more energy-efficient car, but not everyone can afford one. Teleport is a more efficient way of traveling, but not everyone can afford that either.

All I'm really saying is that your argument does not debunk mine, though I do see how the cost might be more of a problem for most people.

Carrauntoohil wrote:
Layovers aren't really a thing for EU flights.

You would know about this more than I would; I'm not from the EU. Though the few times I traveled in the EU, I did experience layovers, so I factored it into my reasoning.

Carrauntoohil wrote:
The rules for hirelings and services note that a doctor makes 1GP/day. So the teleport is, at its cheapest (and assuming UCSummoner), still more than a year's salary for a well-paid professional. Lawyers make 10GP/day. Still over 10% of a year's salary to make a 1-way teleport. Whereas, minimum wage in Ireland is two-thirds of that flight cost in a day.

I was using a more real world money system with this because my argument was for teleporting to replace airlines as we know it, not the consequence of gold, silver, and copper as the standard for the world's economy in the real world (though that can be added to this list, it would make for some interesting upturns economically, and that would be a fun discussion).

Carrauntoohil wrote:

There's also the fact that you can directly go to where you need to be. Because we're assuming Pathfinder rules in the real modern world, I think it's plausible to believe those travel wizards would have many locations that they are "very familiar" with, and thus reducing the risk of teleport mishaps.

Correction: You can maybe go directly where you need to be. For what is still a much higher cost. 'Very familiar' is still a 3%...

True. I will admit that the 3% risk factor is still there. However, that's not a 3% chance of crashing; it's a 3% chance of getting lost. I would take those odds.

You're correct; I would never get on a plane if there were a 3% chance I would die. But the 3% chance for teleporting to a "very familiar" place is not death, but teleporting somewhere else. There is no mishap factor, so there's no damage risk. There is a 2% chance of arriving d% nearby and a 1% chance of being in a similar area.

In my argument for this, I mentioned that the wizards would use this as a service, so they would have prepped many teleports a day for this, they can try again.

I'm not saying it's foolproof. I'm just arguing that teleport as a magical reality would affect the real world's development of airplanes/airlines as a means of travel in some capacity.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

commercial travel would probably be via teleportation circles, not some TSA Teleport Mage casting for small groups of people. Then you'd have instantaneous, foolproof travels from one set local to another. The initial cost would be more, but it's probably far less than the cost of a jet liner + fuel + maintenance + crew.


I'm kind of curious as to what the environmental impact would be for switching from a paper/digital economic system to a purely coin-based one.


Depending on how long PF mechanics (specifically magic and other Su/Sp abilities) have been around, many technologies might not have been invented at all. Why bother inventing the aeroplane or the jet engine if magical flight and teleportation exist? Given that sort of history, there wouldn't be any airlines, or cars, or wide networks of modern tarmac (asphalt) roads. Medicine wouldn't be the same. And so on.

RR: The Bank of Abadar already issues what amounts to Traveller's Cheques (remember them?) that are redeemable in any temple of Abadar. It's a small step from that to paper money.


You'd still get roads, most travel is non-teleporting.

If you commercialized teleport for travel you would commercialize magic for building roads with mud to stone and stoneshape and whatever else was needed, you'd have immaculate solid stone roads that hold up far better than asphalt.

Also, I would think "science" would continue to happen and discoveries would be made, just because wizard dude can teleport someone doesn't mean the combustion engine never evolved.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
KingGramJohnson wrote:
[...]

My main objection is to the 'why would you need...' part of the whole thing, tbh.

All we really have to work with is the settlement stats and the hireling rules to try and work out how this impacts the world, so (I'm ignoring chained summoner for all of this, but using UCSummoner, I think it's reasonable):

1. Teleport - 5th level - 3 passengers (1 per 3lvl @ minimum level) - 450GP

5th level casting is available in any large town (2k to 5k population).

But then we need to breakdown the number of 5th level spellcasters who might have teleport on their list and also actually know it. That's so much extra work, that I'm happy to just call it 15%, if you are, or close enough to 1 in 6 casters. Although I suspect it's a lot less.

So we'll estimate at 1 such caster per 21,000 population. That's slightly less than 350,000 available casters in the whole wide world (based on Earth population of 7 billion).

These casters can cast the spell once a day, so that's pretty much 1 million people being moved in this way once a day with no option to correct for the mishap chance. That's 30,000 people not getting where they intended each day, or 10,000 going somewhere 'similar'. With no chance of correction.

The FAA report that they (in normal circumstances, let's not bring the plague into this) handle flights for 2,900,000 passengers per day. Globally it's estimated about 6,000,000 people fly each day.

Don't forget teleport has a 900 mile range for our caster who just got their very first 5th level spell. So many of these people aren't travelling very far. You couldn't get from Anchorage to Vancouver, for example. The Southernmost tip of Florida wouldn't get you to Colombia. My Australian wife can't even visit everywhere in her own home-state.

2. Greater Teleport - 6th level (UCSumm only, 7th level all others) - 5 passengers - 960GP

6th level casting needs a small city. 5k to 10k population. But that only helps our summoner. 7th level casting for any other class needs a large city 10k to 25k population. So our potential castings per day drops significantly.

No range limit, which helps.

No mishap chance, which also helps.

But it's our pool of casters (and therefore travellers) that really, really hurts us here. We'll ignore the relatively small pool of Summoners, if you're okay with that.

So we have a population of about 400,000 7th level casters in the world. To make up for ignoring the Summoners, I'm happy not to go too hard on the number that will have the spell on their list (a smaller group than for Teleport) and say maybe 1 in 10 casters will both have it available to know and also know it. Does that seem fair to you? That's 40,000 castings a day with 5 passengers.

Between both spells, we're moving 50,000 people a day. But only 20,000 of them can engage in intercontinental travel. It would take over a month of non-stop use of Greater Teleport just to allow the US/Canada visitors to Ireland each year to make the trip. We're up to almost three months of dedicated spell use just to allow US (excl Canada) visits to Australia on top of that. And we haven't even allowed for any of the visitors that go in the other direction.

What are the other 5,950,000 other daily travellers doing?

3. Teleportation Circle - 9th level (5 total possible classes, including Domain clerics) - 4 passengers/round (6,800 passengers per spell cast at 17th level) - 1,530GP

Now we're getting somewhere. This is our cheapers bulk option by a long long ways.

Wait. 9th level spellcasting isn't listed as purchasable in any settlement. Oh well. Let's see what we can do anyway.

ISWG (pg253) says that characters at 16th level or higher should be rare enough to be truly legendary. I recall reading somewhere that they should be about equivalent to the number of billionaires. That seems fair to me.

Forbes says there are 2,755 billionaires, as of early April 2021. But remember that's level 16+. We need Level 17+. So minus 20%.

Let's still say 2,500 characters at that level in the world. Now of those, only 5 classes (allowing for all Clerics to have the Rune domain and even counting Chained Summoner as a potential class (she gets it at 16th level not 17th, but I think including him at all balances that out)) can actually possible learn the spell. There are around 35 classes (give or take). So 1 in 7 classes can cast the spell, speaking generously. That's a pool of 357 people that might have the spell.

It's a good spell. Let's give it to 300 of them.

This gives us 2,040,000 passengers in a day. Progress at last. But these passengers have 300 locations to pick from across the whole world. And they have to start from the right place to get to the destination they actually want. there are almost 18,000 commercial airports in the world. There are over 5,000 public airports in the US alone.

We're back to layovers, and maybe a loooot more of them.

Between all three spells, we still have less than half of the global air passengers in a day accounted for. And we've assumed that all of these casters are willing to spend their time on this.

We haven't even accounted for air freight, which makes passenger travel look like a fun day out for all the family.

Teleportation just isn't feasible as a means of replacing air travel in any significant or meaningful fashion.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

True, it's not. But how many people really need the modern equivalent of air travel? Who really needs to fly from Chicago to Miami, or New York to London? We do it because we can, and our economy has grown on the assumption that we can.

Would the Montgolfier Brothers or Cayley or Wilbur and Orville have bothered if the 5th level wizard down the road could fly easily every day just like that?

True, science would progress, probably in different ways because the tools, problems and physics would be different. But technology is built to solve a problem and deployed to make money. If the fledgling technology isn't economically viable, it doesn't get made, and it doesn't get improved, and it doesn't get cheaper.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Teleportation circle + permanency is where the real money would be, it shouldn't be all that hard to match up people who can cast the one with those who can cast the other in the modern world.


Mudfoot wrote:
True, it's not. But how many people really need the modern equivalent of air travel? Who really needs to fly from Chicago to Miami, or New York to London? We do it because we can, and our economy has grown on the assumption that we can.

There is always pressure to move people and goods quickly and cheaply in bulk.

Quote:
Would the Montgolfier Brothers or Cayley or Wilbur and Orville have bothered if the 5th level wizard down the road could fly easily every day just like that?

One could just as easily argue that seeing the one Wizard down the road being able to stay airborne for a maximum of 5 minutes would inspire people to make flight more available to those without phenomenal cosmic power and we might have had mechanical flight several years earlier.

Quote:
True, science would progress, probably in different ways because the tools, problems and physics would be different. But technology is built to solve a problem and deployed to make money. If the fledgling technology isn't economically viable, it doesn't get made, and it doesn't get improved, and it doesn't get cheaper.

Honestly I think spells like Purify Food and Drink are more likely to be inhibiting factors than spells like Fly. But we still hit issues of both availability and bulk scaling.

New York City alone consumes about 30 million pounds of food a day (the average person consumes 3-5lbs, population over 8 million). It doesn't produce much food though. Much of that travels by road, rail and sea but there are always going to be reasons to move large numbers of people and things and making that movement as efficient and as fast as possible.


avr wrote:
Teleportation circle + permanency is where the real money would be, it shouldn't be all that hard to match up people who can cast the one with those who can cast the other in the modern world.

Teleportation circle, even permanencied, is just such a work intensive way for a legendarily rare but incredibly powerful caster to make their money. They have far better options for filthy lucre.

That said, human nature is pretty much defined by "there was an easier way to do this". So, a circle network of some kind is probably close enough to inevitable as makes no difference.


KingGramJohnson wrote:

{. . .}

You would reach terminal velocity after falling only 200 feet, much more survivable.
{. . .}

. . . Which goes back to an idea that I had for a fantasy world on which the atmosphere is denser (but the oxygen partial pressure is increased less than the overall pressure) but the gravity is lower, which conveniently allows big creatures (like Dragons) to fly while still being of reasonably hefty construction (and the higher total amount of oxygen helps them respire aerobically at a sufficient rate for this while the even higher amount of nitrogen causes combustion to run less hot, thereby impairing heat engine efficiency at both ends of the thermal cycle, and thereby impairing the development of modern Earth-style industrial technology).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Carrauntoohil wrote:
Teleportation circle, even permanencied, is just such a work intensive way for a legendarily rare but incredibly powerful caster to make their money. They have far better options for filthy lucre.

See, I agree, it might not be the thing that makes a wizard the richest the fastest. However, not everyone works for money alone. Not all wizards do what they do for cash. Some people are driven by money, others are driven by doing what they love and/or trying to make the world a better place.

Maybe there are some wizards out there who are passionate about wanting to help people get to where they want to go.

I had a character in a game I ran, he was a high-level, SUPER powerful sorcerer who rocked in a fight. Do you know what he did for a living? He was a potato farmer and brewer of vodka. Of course, he partook in the adventure, but he wanted to make alcohol and share it with everyone.

Granted, that's a PC, but the same can be true of NPCs. It is not far from untrue to think that high-level spell casters might want a simple life or want to just do a job for people. Not everyone is looking to get filthy rich.

All that being said. I know that this goes against RAW, but if we're bringing magic into a real world setting, do you think it wouldn't grow or change at all? Do you think that there haven't been any magical breakthroughs since the Age of Darkness in Pathfinder's setting?

I truly believe that if magic existed in the real world, there would be advancement, like there is with science. Teleport and Teleportation Circle may become easier, cheaper, and more viable. Yes, these are assumptions here, but I think they're safe assumptions to make.


I don't know about that -- Starfinder seems to have lost some of the magic relative to Pathfinder time -- no more 9/9 casters, for starters. (On the other hand, maybe things were going in favor of magic advancing along with technology, and then the Gap somehow hosed magic worse.)

As for bringing magic into our world -- well, then we'd find out if Earth is actually encased in a humongous Antimagic Field . . . .


As far as the amount of work goes - if the extent of your involvement is travelling to Rome or Tokyo or whatever, spending 10 minutes casting a spell (+12 seconds for the person casting permanency), then being wined and dined until you do the same tomorrow, with a big payment for your work - is this really a lot of work? A permanent teleportation circle should last at least as long as an airliner, transfers more people per 24 hours and a 7n7's worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

Basic research into a better teleport spell or whatever might pay off more in the long run but the only better paying job in the short run is to take over a nation.


If mid-high level clerics/oracles are fairly common, I imagine they would cast heal on as many people as possible, and all diseases would be wiped out in a few years.


avr wrote:

As far as the amount of work goes - if the extent of your involvement is travelling to Rome or Tokyo or whatever, spending 10 minutes casting a spell (+12 seconds for the person casting permanency), then being wined and dined until you do the same tomorrow, with a big payment for your work - is this really a lot of work? A permanent teleportation circle should last at least as long as an airliner, transfers more people per 24 hours and a 7n7's worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

Basic research into a better teleport spell or whatever might pay off more in the long run but the only better paying job in the short run is to take over a nation.

Unfortunately, at NPC WBL, none of the handful of casters in a world who can cast Teleportation Circle can afford to pay for the Permanency. The total cost of a Permanent Teleportation Circle is a third of the Heroic NPC WBL.

And at their levels, we are regularly assured, these casters have other concerns. Even at a level lower than they get access to the spell, casters prefer to live on the surface of the Sun than deal with the petty concerns of nations.


I can't think of anything mankind currently can do that in the general case could be done cheaper by magic. Two borderline cases come to mind, though:

1) I believe there would be no crew or cargo rockets to the ISS. It's cheaper to lift a wizard once so he knows where to go and then he ferries things. Note, however, he can't build the ISS in the first place--he needs a destination to teleport to, nor can large components be lifted. For this mission Greater Teleport is sufficient.

2) Interplanetary (including lunar) missions. Some of these can be done cheaper by Interplanetary Teleport than by rocket. You need someplace to go, though--orbital missions still require a rocket, as well as probes of the gas giants (no surface to teleport to.)

However, in a technological society I believe the spell would be revised so as to permit a destination that is an orbit rather than a location. I also see no reason to think it would be impossible for somebody to build a bigger version of a portable hole. The Shuttle cargo bay is 6x the length and 2.5x the width of a portable hole--why shouldn't it be possible to construct a portable hole of such a size? A simple calculation says it should be 375,000gp--small potatoes compared to the cost of a Shuttle even using the "worst" conversion formula I've seen.

All landers/rovers to date would have been teleported, and all deep space missions would be by magic if you permit orbital destinations. However, rockets would still carry many payloads to Earth orbit--there simply aren't enough casters to meet the demand. Once you have orbital-class rockets you also have deep space rockets, any sufficiently large operation would be riding tails of fire. The deep space probes would still have their maneuvering rockets, also.

I do see a mechanical issue, though--what happens to guns? I pick up an ordinary semi-auto gun, what in the world is making me shoot so slowly??


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Loren Pechtel wrote:
I can't think of anything mankind currently can do that in the general case could be done cheaper by magic.

Healing? A typical 1st level cleric with 12 Cha can cure 4d6 damage on everyone within a 30' radius in the space of a minute, every day. Arranged properly, that's at least 50 people. Admittedly a niche requirement, but it would empty A&E departments very quickly. And things like Cure Blindness are vastly more effective than what we have IRL.


Well, given how the rules for bursts, spreads, and emanations work, if Pathfinder rules applied to the real world, explosives just wouldn't work that well.


Mudfoot wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
I can't think of anything mankind currently can do that in the general case could be done cheaper by magic.
Healing? A typical 1st level cleric with 12 Cha can cure 4d6 damage on everyone within a 30' radius in the space of a minute, every day. Arranged properly, that's at least 50 people. Admittedly a niche requirement, but it would empty A&E departments very quickly. And things like Cure Blindness are vastly more effective than what we have IRL.

Note that I said "anything mankind currently can do", not "anything that magic can do". The point is that in almost all cases technology will displace magic in those things that technology can do.

Magic will continue to exist, focusing on the things that technology can't do.

And that's not going to empty A&E departments, just reduce the number of people there. Counting my medical history and what I know of my wife's (obviously I haven't quizzed her on every detail of the time before we met) I can come up with 7 visits. Two were trauma related and would easily have been fixed. 4 definitely would not have been helped. One is unknown, but probably would not have been helped.


Loren Pechtel wrote:
1) I believe there would be no crew or cargo rockets to the ISS. It's cheaper to lift a wizard once so he knows where to go and then he ferries things. Note, however, he can't build the ISS in the first place--he needs a destination to teleport to, nor can large components be lifted. For this mission Greater Teleport is sufficient.

I'm not au fait with rocket launches, but see the restrictions here which might affect this.


Loren Pechtel wrote:
Note that I said "anything mankind currently can do", not "anything that magic can do". The point is that in almost all cases technology will displace magic in those things that technology can do.

'Mankind' can certainly heal, currently. Just not as well as the spell can. Much of the expense for a lot of medical and trauma related care is based on diagnosis and investigation of the damage.

A CLW spell doesn't need an XRay first. Or an MRI. Heal, Restoration and Regeneration will fix many other medical issues. Divination can replace a lot of the diagnostics.

With helium becoming increasingly scarce, moving away from reliance on MRIs (which need helium) would be pretty nice.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Carrauntoohil wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
1) I believe there would be no crew or cargo rockets to the ISS. It's cheaper to lift a wizard once so he knows where to go and then he ferries things. Note, however, he can't build the ISS in the first place--he needs a destination to teleport to, nor can large components be lifted. For this mission Greater Teleport is sufficient.
I'm not au fait with rocket launches, but see the restrictions here which might affect this.

The ship has moved anyway, that doesn't make sense. If you're on a rotating planet everything moves anyway.

In most ship-to-ship combat you don't know the target. I have no problem with the wizard having to scry that ship over yonder to be able to teleport to it, but if the wizard has been there long enough for it to be very familiar the only way I can see that making sense is if teleport can't hit unpredictable motion--and note the ISS is highly predictable motion.


Carrauntoohil wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
Note that I said "anything mankind currently can do", not "anything that magic can do". The point is that in almost all cases technology will displace magic in those things that technology can do.

'Mankind' can certainly heal, currently. Just not as well as the spell can. Much of the expense for a lot of medical and trauma related care is based on diagnosis and investigation of the damage.

A CLW spell doesn't need an XRay first. Or an MRI. Heal, Restoration and Regeneration will fix many other medical issues. Divination can replace a lot of the diagnostics.

I'm sure there would be plenty of healing magic, I'm just saying that CLW isn't enough to clear out the ER by any means. By the time you're up to stuff like Heal you're going to have quite a capacity issue.

Quote:
With helium becoming increasingly scarce, moving away from reliance on MRIs (which need helium) would be pretty nice.

But an MRI doesn't consume helium in it's operation. It's in a loop, not released. If it becomes expensive enough I'm sure they'll switch to a system where there are tanks to recover it in case of a powerdown or quench. It's just not economic yet to recover the helium in those cases.


Loren Pechtel wrote:
The ship has moved anyway, that doesn't make sense. If you're on a rotating planet everything moves anyway.

It doesn't need to make sense, it's TTRPG ;p

The peasant railgun doesn't make sense either, but it works under the game's mechanics.

Quote:
In most ship-to-ship combat you don't know the target. I have no problem with the wizard having to scry that ship over yonder to be able to teleport to it, but if the wizard has been there long enough for it to be very familiar the only way I can see that making sense is if teleport can't hit unpredictable motion--and note the ISS is highly predictable motion.

Ship movement is incredibly predictable. They're not known for being particularly nimble and teleport takes six seconds.


Loren Pechtel wrote:
I'm sure there would be plenty of healing magic, I'm just saying that CLW isn't enough to clear out the ER by any means.

Nobody made that claim, so it looks like we're golden.

Quote:
But an MRI doesn't consume helium in it's operation. It's in a loop, not released. If it becomes expensive enough I'm sure they'll switch to a system where there are tanks to recover it in case of a powerdown or quench. It's just not economic yet to recover the helium in those cases.

I'm aware of that. But we are stilling running out of helium and would be less reliant on it if healing worked by Pathfinder mechanics and diagnosis was less of an issue and medicine was just a matter of tapping someone on the forehead and saying "Fix whatever is wrong inside this person".


2 people marked this as a favorite.

^Suddenly I have this vision that the result of "Fix whatever is wrong inside this person" would depend very much upon point of view, so you'd better be REALLY careful about your choice of care provider.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
UnArcaneElection wrote:
^Suddenly I have this vision that the result of "Fix whatever is wrong inside this person" would depend very much upon point of view, so you'd better be REALLY careful about your choice of care provider.

:D :D :D

Weeeeeeeellll, quality of healthcare can be pretty variable even now. This just makes it even more fun.

Erastil: "This guy definitely needs antlers.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Carrauntoohil wrote:
It doesn't need to make sense, it's TTRPG ;p

Exactly! The OP isn't asking about all PF mechanics in the real world, they're asking about what are the real world consequences that would exist for PF mechanics. I wasn't thinking that all mechanics apply at the same time. I was isolating specific mechanics and trying to figure out what consequences there would be for them.

If ALL mechanics applied, it would just be an RPG, and this thread would be moot.

So my argument for teleport replacing most commercial air travel was just about teleport, not all PF's mechanics.

I don't think PF's WBL for players or NPCs would work in a real economy, so I didn't factor it in. I was factoring in mostly a real world-like economy, in which I still think if magical teleportation existed, commercial air travel would be less of a thing.

Besides, as a GM, I hardly ever look at the NPC WBL. An NPC is as wealthy as I need them to be for the situation. But I DO admit, @Carrauntoohil, that if WBL were a factor involved, yes, teleport would be much harder to pull off.

My whole argument makes some assumptions (Magical study leading to more accessible magic, real world economics, etc.). Still, in my opinion, real world teleportation would highly reduce the need for commercial air travel.

Carrauntoohil wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
^Suddenly I have this vision that the result of "Fix whatever is wrong inside this person" would depend very much upon point of view, so you'd better be REALLY careful about your choice of care provider.

:D :D :D

Weeeeeeeellll, quality of healthcare can be pretty variable even now. This just makes it even more fun.

Erastil: "This guy definitely needs antlers.

Bahahaha! I could SO see this happening! Depending on the hospital and the faith of the one healing you, all kinds of great stuff would happen! :-D God forbid you get a cleric of Lamashtu to heal you up that day.

This made my day!


KingGramJohnson wrote:

Exactly! The OP isn't asking about all PF mechanics in the real world, they're asking about what are the real world consequences that would exist for PF mechanics. I wasn't thinking that all mechanics apply at the same time. I was isolating specific mechanics and trying to figure out what consequences there would be for them.

If ALL mechanics applied, it would just be an RPG, and this thread would be moot.

See, I assumed all mechanics, rather than just some. Because so many PF mechanics only make sense (lol, or as close as possible) when all mechanics are assumed.

The world with only one or two assumptions added is a very different world.

I've just always had some issues with the idea that the Tippyverse is inevitable.

(And yeah, as a GM, those NPC rules are cute, but I'm still ignoring them. Like a pug that tries to eat your foot through a rubber boot)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Sorry for not responding. This escalated way faster than I was expecting, and I haven’t really had time to look at it.

KingGramJohnson wrote:

Exactly! The OP isn't asking about all PF mechanics in the real world, they're asking about what are the real world consequences that would exist for PF mechanics. I wasn't thinking that all mechanics apply at the same time. I was isolating specific mechanics and trying to figure out what consequences there would be for them.

If ALL mechanics applied, it would just be an RPG, and this thread would be moot.

This is exactly what I was asking. Thank you for explaining it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
This is exactly what I was asking. Thank you for explaining it.

So, more a question of if Real World Science (tm, patent pending) applied in full to individual Pathfinder mechanics as they exist inside Golarion or [insert your homebrew universe here]?

In that case, we can probably dispense with social or economic outcomes because they're a matter of world-builder fiat to decide if they happen or not and aren't necessarily inevitable outcomes of the mechanics.

Hmmmm.... further thought is required.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:

Sorry for not responding. This escalated way faster than I was expecting, and I haven’t really had time to look at it.

KingGramJohnson wrote:

Exactly! The OP isn't asking about all PF mechanics in the real world, they're asking about what are the real world consequences that would exist for PF mechanics. I wasn't thinking that all mechanics apply at the same time. I was isolating specific mechanics and trying to figure out what consequences there would be for them.

If ALL mechanics applied, it would just be an RPG, and this thread would be moot.
This is exactly what I was asking. Thank you for explaining it.

If our world is an RPG . . . well, for starters, I wound up with a point buy in the range -3 to +6.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mudfoot wrote:
But as you can pass through an ally's space, crashes would be reduced substantially as long as you're on good terms with other road users.

No road user is on good terms with other road users. :D


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Carrauntoohil wrote:
Mudfoot wrote:
But as you can pass through an ally's space, crashes would be reduced substantially as long as you're on good terms with other road users.
No road user is on good terms with other road users. :D

Fact!

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / What real world consequences would exist for Pathfinder mechanics? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.