| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It seems to be a common assumption that the Unchained version is a straight upgrade. This always felt a tad off to me, so today I dived into CRB, APG, UCombat and Pathfinder Unchained for a detailed comparison.
Unchained keeps some class abilities and improves some others. Beside talents, the newer version is indeed strictly superior. However, there are a few talents which got silently removed or "sidegraded" (mix of up- and downgrade):
Basic talents
Befuddling strike: Was removed in favor of disoriented injury, but lasted longer than that (1d4 rounds), though only with a static -2 AB penalty
Charmer / fast fingers / hard to fool / honeyed words / peerless maneuver: Basically certainty with a fixed skill, but +1 use at level 5 and rogue's edge is not required
Convincing lie: Silently disappeared (basically: others spread your lies)
Guileful polyglot: Silently disappeared (basically: +4 languages known)
Ki pool: Silently disappeared (basically: Wis mod size)
Major magic: Fixed amount of 2 uses is superior at level 2 and 3, if you pick it up early (retraining or Extra Rogue Talent), Unchained version becomes superior at level 6+ though, with 3+ daily uses
Offensive defensive: Silently disappeared (basically: +1 dodge AC per sneak dice against target you hit with sneak)
Snap shot: A basic talent in CRB, an advanced one in Unchained
Advanced talents
Hardminded: Silently disappeared (basically: automatically save against illusions)
Master of disguise: Can't don disguise as standard action, but doesn't require Quick disguise talent either
Master tricks: Silently removed (basically: pick a ninja master trick)
Skill mastery: Nerfed to just Int mod skills to always take 10 in, instead of 3+Int
Thoughtful Reexamining: Silently removed (basically: 1/day reroll Knowledge / Sense motive / Perception for new / better information)
Personal opinion
Some of this is minor to negligible. Offensive defensive was a pretty good talent though, even with the FAQ clarifications (doesn't stack with itself, only against attacked target). Reduced access to ninja tricks is a downgrade, even though it protects the ninja's niche. Snap shot was a tad broken anyway. Hardminded was a nice "you can't outwit me" ability, like Slippery mind is. Skill mastery was good, now it's rather niche.
I personally think the original rogue is better, but I haven't decided exactly why.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Depends what you want, really. I know that is such an obvious answer that it fails to be healpful, so I will explain myself.
Not everyone wants to a Dex-based character. There, I said it out loud.
Now that that's out of the way, I will use an example I have personally played.
I was a Tengu and wanted to utilize Swordtrained for access to weapons Rogues normally cannot use. I, personally, like the Greatsword. The campaign didn't really promise anything fancy, so something plain enough to be found anywhere and everywhere was optimal.
Goodbye Dexterity. Hello Strength. Hello Armor Master trait. Hello mithral breastplate.
I had a wonderful Wisdom, took the Nature Magic feat for constant Know Direction and 1/day Purify Food & Water. Had the Wild Magic Rogue Talent for 3/day Create Water. Endurance so I could sleep in my mithral breastplate. Lots of Dirty Trick feats...
The Scout archetype for Sneak Attack on a charge, and a reliable flanking buddy made for a pretty decent character. Izzek was equally effective both in and out of combat. Loads of fun to play. And probably one of my favorite Rogue builds, ever... despite all the awesome cRogue/UnRogue builds I have seen on these boards, I would still rather play as my Izzek.
So, it literally just comes down to what you want to play. If you don't feel like "wasting" Finesse Training on a Strength-based UnRogue, maybe cRogue is right for you.
My Brazen Deceiver Bard needs to be converted to having levels in cRogue instead of UnRogue, because I have Convincing Lie as a Rogue Talent for him... and literally don't care about his combat ability, so dex-to-dmg means nothing for Cawn.
Even if you don't want dex to damage (which is unusual, since there's no downside to it for an unchained rogue, no restrictions, works two handed etc.) debilitating injury is a big power boost, it's what's meant to make up for 3/4 BAB.
Core Rogue’s talent pool is indeed far superior... though part of that very well could be due to an oversight on the writers part with the Unchained Rogue... the vast majority of talents that were added from other books were left out of the Unchained Rogue’s talent list, and many talents added after the Unchained Rogue were still only added to Core Rogue...
The UnChained Rogue can do some pretty silly things with their Skill Unlocks... Intimidate immediately comes to mind. Combine that with Debilitating Injury, and you can dish out some pretty serious debuffs... even without selecting an archetype to abuse Intimidate.
Signature Skill:Climb is beautiful on a Vexing Mouser or Vexing Swarmer build... the Vexing Mouser mixes 8 levels of Vexing Dodger UnRogue and 7 levels of Mouser Swashbuckler in whatever order you feel suits you best. And the Vexing Swarm Fighter starts and finishes Swarm Fighter with a 5 level dive into Vexing Dodger UnRogue between levels 3 and 7... it's worth losing another BAB for the Skill Unlock [Climb].
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Snap shot: A basic talent in CRB, an advanced one in Unchained
Huh? Where's the unchained version?
even with the FAQ clarifications (doesn't stack with itself, only against attacked target)
There is no FAQ clarification. The FAQ literally says "we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent". The FAQ does absolutely nothing! RAW is Offensive Defense stacks with itself and works against all attackers. Everything else is a houserule. A houserule inspired by the musings of a dev is still a houserule.
the vast majority of talents that were added from other books were left out of the Unchained Rogue’s talent list, and many talents added after the Unchained Rogue were still only added to Core Rogue...
Full list according to AoN:
Finesse Rogue
Sniper’s Eye
Entanglement of Blades † (Adv.)
Acrobatic Stunt
Bomber
Bomber’s Discovery
Card Sharp
Charmer
Climbing Stunt
Convincing Lie
Deadly Scratch
Demand Attention
Demon Lantern
Disabling Stunt
Disarming Luck
Disease Use
Escaping Stunt
Face in the Crowd
False Friend
Fast Fingers
Fast Picks
Flying Stunt
Got Your Back
Graceful Faller
Grig Jig
Guileful Polyglot
Hard to Fool
Heads Up
Honeyed Words
Ki Pool
Last Ditch Effort
Obfuscate Story
Offensive Defense †
Papercraft Tools
Peerless Maneuver
Philologist
Quick Scrounge
Rapid Boost
Riding Stunt
Sacred Sneak Attack †
Sacrifice Self
Scavenger
Set-Up
Shove Aside
Single-Minded Appraiser
Sleight of Hand Stunt
Snap Shot
Sneaky Maneuver †
Steal the Story
Stealth Stunt
Stem the Flow †
Swimming Stunt
Vicious Claws
Without a Trace
Hamstring Strike † (Adv.)
Hard Minded (Adv.)
Harrow Strike † (Adv.)
Master Tricks (Adv.)
Thoughtful Reexamining (Adv.)
Certainty
Multitalented
Cutting Edge (Adv.)
Double Debilitation † (Adv.)
Light Walker (Adv.)
Multitalented, Greater (Adv.)
Quick Shot (Adv.)
Terrain Mastery, Greater (Adv.)
So, which lost talents are actually relevant? Rogues Talents aren't like deeds, you have to actually select them with your finite number of talent (and feat) slots. I think there're plenty of talents that are never selected, and losing them thus isn't actually a downside in practise.
But are even the standouts out of the lost talents significant?
Ki Pool may feel like a big loss because everyone loves Vanishing Trick, but not only is it that good anyway once iterative and Haste attacks come around (until you invest an advanced talent), the number of daily uses is really low.
Bomber and Bomber's Discovery are similar, they're cool on paper but unless the starting ability scores are ridiculous, the number of daily uses is way too low.
Non-stacked Offensive Defense isn't actually better than DI:Disoriented unless you take it at 2nd, or your campaign lasts past 16th level - the average AC bonus is the same across levels 4-16. And where DI is free, OD not only costs a talent, but blocks other SA-affecting talents. When you can stack OD, the AC number gets crazy high, sure, but that requires landing multiple sneack attacks - which is the situation in which a Rogue needs the least help.
What remains?
Even if you don't want dex to damage (which is unusual, since there's no downside to it for an unchained rogue, no restrictions, works two handed etc.)
The downside is not directly a mechanical one, but a psychological one. An Unchained rogue gains the Dex based benefits for "free" (ignoring opportunity cost), so many players' initial reaction will be simply go for Dex.
But the highly rated dex-to-damage needs 3 levels to actually work, it's restricted to a single weapon type and dumping Str has multiple drawbacks that don't seem too bad (reduced carrying capacity, worse Climb & Swim, lowered CMD, sensitive to any Str reduction) until they do become relevant.
I dislike the Unchained version for trying to make the decision for me. Str based is viable (as VoodistMonk pointed out), and IMO there are further options, to the point of a skilled phantom thief who basically never rolls for attack.
Core Rogue’s talent pool is indeed far superior... though part of that very well could be due to an oversight on the writers part with the Unchained Rogue... the vast majority of talents that were added from other books were left out of the Unchained Rogue’s talent list, and many talents added after the Unchained Rogue were still only added to Core Rogue...
By RAW, yes.
Huh? Where's the unchained version?
They renamed it to Quick Shot.
What remains?
Personally I like False Friend, Got Your Back, Guileful Polyglot (especially at level 2), Peerless Maneuver, Vicious Claws (catfolk only), and some more. They are no game winners, but since it's about rogue talents (less than feats), they don't have to be.
SheepishEidolon nailed it, me-thinks... there is a certain freedom involved when playing the cRogue vs the UnRogue. UnRogue seems to make certain choices for you. Even if those features are essentially free, and could easily be ignored, it still feels wierd.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But the highly rated dex-to-damage needs 3 levels to actually work, it's restricted to a single weapon type and dumping Str has multiple drawbacks that don't seem too bad (reduced carrying capacity, worse Climb & Swim, lowered CMD, sensitive to any Str reduction) until they do become relevant.
These issues only really become notable if you don't just switch the values for strength and dex around, but actually dump str. Like, if you're willing to go 18str/14dex for a str-based Rogue, if you make that 14str/18dex, your carrying capacity, climb and swim bonuses, early level damage, and resistance to strength damage all suffice (and the CMD is unchanged). It's one when people try to unhealthily min/max that problems arise.
My main issue with strength based is that I relly don't see why anyone should pick Rogue for that (and not Vivisectionist, Slayer, Investigator, etc.). Or even more so, whatever.
I dislike the Unchained version for trying to make the decision for me.
I hear you, I really do. I hate, no, loathe class design that only really allows one single playstyle. Such classes should not exist (thinking of you, Swashbuckler, Gunslinger, and Cavalier). But a class only being good at one playstyle is still preferable to a class not being good at any playstyle!
They renamed it to Quick Shot.
That's really not a renaming, though. Not only does Snap Shot only work when the Rogue can act in a surprise round, it doesn't actually do anything in most of those. Maybe I'm missing something, but the only time Snap Shot works if when the Rogue gets a surprise round, but if only PCs can act in that, it doesn't help. Unless you're in a situation where the Rogue and part of or all enemies can act in the surprise round, the initiative during that surprise round isn't relevant, as any opponent that is surprised is flat-footed anyway. Meanwhile, Quick Shot grants a bonus attack in every combat, both with and without a surprise round, and it automatically takes the Rogue out of Flat-Footedness (so basically it includes Uncanny Dodge), even if the opponent gets a surprise round and the Rogue doesn't.
They are no game winners, but since it's about rogue talents (less than feats), they don't have to be.
To be fair, nowadays, when I think of Rogue, Sylvan Trickster is always on my mind, which makes the Rogue Talents having to compete with hexes like Flight and Greater Gift of Consumption, which patch up two of the Rogue's most glaring weaknesses.
Personally I like False Friend, Got Your Back, Guileful Polyglot (especially at level 2), Peerless Maneuver, Vicious Claws (catfolk only), and some more.
Thank you! Got Your Back cought my eye, too, when I looked through the list of cRogue exclusive talents. I'd rate Vicious Claws higher if Rogue had BAB appropriate for a PC class (and thus qualify for Claw Pounce at a proper level). I do, however, have a hard time seeing those minor skil related talents as any kind of noteworthy loss. How many languages do you need?
Even if those features are essentially free, and could easily be ignored, it still feels wierd.
"Hey, I'll gift you a brand new Mercedes A-class, with insurance and gas payed for the next three years. And I'll throw in a jet ski!" "No thanks, I don't live near the beach and can't make use of the jet ski. I'll keep driving my 1997 Toyota Corolla!"
I'm literally unable to understand this. This isn't meant as an attack on you or anything, I really just can't wrap my head around it.
I understand that Finesse Training is nice, and it is silly not to jump on it. It is, however, possible that someone may want access to Debilitating Injury, Skill Unlocks, and Sneak Attack... without wanting to be a TWF, or whatever.
The Half-Orc's Skulking Slayer archetype, for example. Maybe Falchions, Greataxes, and/or Greatclubs are what this UnChained Rogue wants to use. Finesse Training is completely dead in the water... good thing it was free.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's only dead in the water if you never need to use a backup weapon because you've been grappled or disarmed or you've gone somewhere where they don't allow big 2H weapons. Being good with a dagger never hurt anyone. Actually it's hurt a lot of people, just not the one with the dagger.
But Finesse Training is badly designed, with the damage bonus coming in at 3rd level. I house ruled it to starting at level 1, but limited to your level (so a 2nd level rogue with 18 Dex gets +2).
... Being good with a dagger never hurt anyone. Actually it's hurt a lot of people, just not the one with the dagger...
This legitimately made me laugh until I stopped.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know, you can just make a STR UCrogue who when taking STR damage just shrugs and pulls out a finesse weapon for decent damage.
Archeologist bard doesn't really fill the same role as a rogue outside of trapfinding. It's a nice option to fill the trapmonkey role when noone wants to play a rogue-style character, but it's not got sneak attack, which is the real strength of rogues.
Vivisectionist does outshine there though, since you can easily just go for natural attacks rather than TWF and be strength based to not miss the dex to damage.
{. . .}
I'm literally unable to understand this. This isn't meant as an attack on you or anything, I really just can't wrap my head around it.
{. . .} Even if those features are essentially free, and could easily be ignored, it still feels wierd. {. . .}
But it does make me think that they should have included a Rogue Specialization in Unchained Rogue that you would choose at first level: Finesse Rogue would have Finesse Training as printed, whereas Buff Rogue would have a Strength-based alternative. Candidate progression:
1: Bonus Feat Power Attack3: Bonus Feat Furious Focus
11: Upgrade Furious Focus to also work on first Attack of Opportunity in each round
19: Upgrade Furious Focus to also work on all iterative attacks and all Attacks of Opportunity
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But it does make me think that they should have included a Rogue Specialization in Unchained Rogue that you would choose at first level: Finesse Rogue would have Finesse Training as printed, whereas Buff Rogue would have a Strength-based alternative. Candidate progression:
I like the idea, but I don't think "more damage" solves the inherent problems of Str rogue.
1: Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency. Add half of your Str mod (up to Rogue level) to all dexterity skills.
3: Evasion functions in medium armor.
11: Heavy Armor Proficiency. Evasion functions in heavy armor.
19: Add your full Str mod to all dexterity skills.
But it does make me think that they should have included a Rogue Specialization in Unchained Rogue that you would choose at first level: Finesse Rogue would have Finesse Training as printed, whereas Buff Rogue would have a Strength-based alternative. Candidate progression:
I like the idea, but I don't think "more damage" solves the inherent problems of Str rogue.
1: Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency. Add half of your Str mod (up to Rogue level) to all dexterity skills.
3: Evasion functions in medium armor.
11: Heavy Armor Proficiency. Evasion functions in heavy armor.
19: Add your full Str mod to all dexterity skills.
Not bad, although you might want to restrict the addition of Strength mod to Dexterity Skills that you have Skill Unlock for (except maybe at 19th level make it full for ones you have Skill Unlock for and half for the others).