Reminder: 4th level Silence shuts down almost all spellcasters


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


In other editions you could cast without verbal at a negative. In 2E you cannot, and (from a quick look) wizard is the only class that can take Silent Spell.

This is going to affect a lot of spells. Almost all spells with casting time [two-actions] or longer, and some others like Power Words.

Silence 2nd needs to be placed on a willing creature and only silences that creature, but Silence 4th creates an emanation from said creature.

My assumpion is that innate spells on monsters do not use the V, S, M requirements but I don't know if that's supported by RAW.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As far as I know, innate spells are simply spells in 2E. So they are subject to the same limitations and otherwise that every other spell is unless otherwise mentioned in the innate spells listing (like 'at will' or 'self only').

I'm a huge fan of that change between editions, SLAs in PF1 were a pain to remember the differences and explain them to a party/GM.


Innate spells are spells in all ways, shapes, and forms.

Silence 4th is really strong, yeah.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

All spells are spells in PF2. If the spell requires a verbal component it requires it from any creature that can cast it.

A martial ally who is good at tripping can shut down spell casting enemies when you cast silence on them.

Also, the wizard feat Silent spell is a lot more powerful an option than a lot of people give it credit for, depending on party composition.


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Sorcerer Blood Component also works to avoid Silence (and also take out the manipulate trait from spells).

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Laughs in Blood Component Substitution


Yes, and this is something that developers need to consider, especially in home games. It looks like Paizo already has since its AP/module bosses (as well as highest level monsters) can usually combat well in several ways; none seem to rely purely on casting and many have ample mobility.

So yes, you can shut down a major portion of an enemy's abilities so it's quite strong for a 4th level spell, but it does require teamwork to implement since very few casters will volunteer to walk up to a boss. And there'd be no discussing plans once the spell went up! (Everybody taking sign language might be a good investment.) A grappling or tripping Monk or other mobile PC could hypothetically shut down casting. Just make sure it doesn't blow up in your face if the boss tosses the silenced PC back into the crowd and cast Force Cage on y'all. :P

Not sure if any NPCs are using this vs. players who generally rely more on casting or at least have a PC or two whose only good trick is casting.
It's bound to happen though, but note it's not like before and has to be cast on a willing creature. Kill that creature and it no longer qualifies as a valid target so the spell ends (unlike in previous editions).
That could also lead to enemy's striking PCs while down if they have to kill the PC to unlock their own spells. :O


Castilliano wrote:
That could also lead to enemy's striking PCs while down if they have to kill the PC to unlock their own spells. :O

That's completely normal for soldiers, who are trained to do that, and it would be truely exceptional if they didn't. But, I can see how some players might find that very upsetting, so it's something a GM has to consider carefully before doing.


thewastedwalrus wrote:

As far as I know, innate spells are simply spells in 2E. So they are subject to the same limitations and otherwise that every other spell is unless otherwise mentioned in the innate spells listing (like 'at will' or 'self only').

I'm a huge fan of that change between editions, SLAs in PF1 were a pain to remember the differences and explain them to a party/GM.

This leads the question of how a beast carries components around. A coatl can cast plane shift. They don't flap around with bags (how do they even put the bag on a snake?) so I just dunno. :-)


Dr A Gon wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
That could also lead to enemy's striking PCs while down if they have to kill the PC to unlock their own spells. :O

That's completely normal for soldiers, who are trained to do that, and it would be truely exceptional if they didn't. But, I can see how some players might find that very upsetting, so it's something a GM has to consider carefully before doing.

As the type of GM who does not finish off KO'd heroes, I can actually see it in this situation since the KO'd character is still a very tangible threat just as a body on the floor... I think I'd probably give the caster the opportunity to pinky swear on a Dismiss action once their turn comes up, though that's obviously an "adjudicating in a way that doesn't piss off the players over RAW" ruling.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Dr A Gon wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
That could also lead to enemy's striking PCs while down if they have to kill the PC to unlock their own spells. :O

That's completely normal for soldiers, who are trained to do that, and it would be truely exceptional if they didn't. But, I can see how some players might find that very upsetting, so it's something a GM has to consider carefully before doing.

As the type of GM who does not finish off KO'd heroes, I can actually see it in this situation since the KO'd character is still a very tangible threat just as a body on the floor... I think I'd probably give the caster the opportunity to pinky swear on a Dismiss action once their turn comes up, though that's obviously an "adjudicating in a way that doesn't piss off the players over RAW" ruling.

I do play where intelligent, veteran, and/or bloodthirsty enemies attack downed PCs unless others interpose themselves, but have warned my players so they make a point of doing so. Many tables seem against that though. If anything PF2 makes that more survivable than previous editions.

So yeah, a living body keeps the spell active and must be "handled", yet note that Silence cannot be dismissed, so no pinky swear needed. :)
And I would doubt they'd use a Dispel so wouldn't trust that pinky.
Don't bring any toys to the combat you can't manage. :P


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So, do any monsters get silence, because that'd just switch off any casters in the party pretty easily, and unlike monsters PC casters don't get to also be good at other things.


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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I don't think you're right that killing the silenced character ends the spell. They have to be willing when the spell is cast. After that, their willingness should be immaterial.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Gold dragons, sovereign dragons and owb prophets of Husk from a cursory glance

Shadow Lodge

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The problem with Silence is even when heightened to 4th level, you still need to block the opposing caster in: If they can still move freely, they'll just spend one action to stride and their remaining two actions to cast something.

We tried this tactic once at endgame, but unfortunately, we were fighting in a very open area, the caster had a really high AC, and only the silenced fighter could actually get close to the caster (due to Confusion on the barbarian and Repulsion on the rest of the party), so we just ended up with a lot of pointless running around before the GM had the caster run away because she had run out of decent spells and the ones keeping us a bay were going to expire eventually.

Now, casting heightened Silence on a Barbarian with No Escape might work better...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, casting it on a martial who can grab us pretty good or trip, or trip and grab. NPC casters usually have a low fort or ref. Undead ones often have terribly low fort saves. Even if they can break out, they are usually done because they have to still move as well.


Tarondor wrote:
I don't think you're right that killing the silenced character ends the spell. They have to be willing when the spell is cast. After that, their willingness should be immaterial.

Willingness isn't the factor that changes; They no longer are a creature so aren't a valid target. And taking away objects or points in space as targets seems very intentional; the spell's a bit unwieldy. The martial has to commit, and with range of touch, it'd be best if they delayed so they can leave the caster's presence immediately! (Reach Spell would work well here, perhaps once the martial has grabbed/tripped.)

--
And yes, one needs to strip an action or the casters move, hence the reference to tripping or grappling so they can't walk away. Slow and other tactics work too. Most require some team coordination.

Looks like not too many monsters do this thankfully.

Odd to note it's also a radius, not an emanation, so the size of the target doesn't make the area larger. It's meant to be small. So keep 20' between casters. :)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Castilliano wrote:
Tarondor wrote:
I don't think you're right that killing the silenced character ends the spell. They have to be willing when the spell is cast. After that, their willingness should be immaterial.

Willingness isn't the factor that changes; They no longer are a creature so aren't a valid target. And taking away objects or points in space as targets seems very intentional; the spell's a bit unwieldy. The martial has to commit, and with range of touch, it'd be best if they delayed so they can leave the caster's presence immediately! (Reach Spell would work well here, perhaps once the martial has grabbed/tripped.)

--
And yes, one needs to strip an action or the casters move, hence the reference to tripping or grappling so they can't walk away. Slow and other tactics work too. Most require some team coordination.

Looks like not too many monsters do this thankfully.

Odd to note it's also a radius, not an emanation, so the size of the target doesn't make the area larger. It's meant to be small. So keep 20' between casters. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong but at 4th it is an emanation.

Quote:
Heightened (4th) The spell effect emanates from the touched creature, silencing all sound in or passing through a 10- foot radius and preventing any auditory and sonic effects in the affected area. While within the radius, creatures are subject to the same effects as the target. Depending upon the position of the effect, a creature might notice the lack of sound reaching it (blocking off the noise coming from a party, for example).


nephandys wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
Tarondor wrote:
I don't think you're right that killing the silenced character ends the spell. They have to be willing when the spell is cast. After that, their willingness should be immaterial.

Willingness isn't the factor that changes; They no longer are a creature so aren't a valid target. And taking away objects or points in space as targets seems very intentional; the spell's a bit unwieldy. The martial has to commit, and with range of touch, it'd be best if they delayed so they can leave the caster's presence immediately! (Reach Spell would work well here, perhaps once the martial has grabbed/tripped.)

--
And yes, one needs to strip an action or the casters move, hence the reference to tripping or grappling so they can't walk away. Slow and other tactics work too. Most require some team coordination.

Looks like not too many monsters do this thankfully.

Odd to note it's also a radius, not an emanation, so the size of the target doesn't make the area larger. It's meant to be small. So keep 20' between casters. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong but at 4th it is an emanation.

Quote:
Heightened (4th) The spell effect emanates from the touched creature, silencing all sound in or passing through a 10- foot radius and preventing any auditory and sonic effects in the affected area. While within the radius, creatures are subject to the same effects as the target. Depending upon the position of the effect, a creature might notice the lack of sound reaching it (blocking off the noise coming from a party, for example).

My bad (maybe), I skimmed and saw the 10' radius.

I say 'maybe' because Bless, for example, calls itself a 5' emanation, w/ no mention of radius, same w/ Circle of Protection with its 10' emanation. 10' radius IMO sounds like an absolute, since the breadth of an emanation that begins at the edge of a creature's square wouldn't be the radius of the area. Then again Repulsion uses 'radius' & emanation too. :/
Maybe Paizo lacked a word for "depth of an emanation" so defaulted to radius or simply lifted language from previous editions without considering the shift, but it's hard to know because I have little doubt Paizo knows exactly what a radius is and that a 5' emanation on a large creature has a 10' radius. Oy.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Castilliano wrote:
nephandys wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
Tarondor wrote:
I don't think you're right that killing the silenced character ends the spell. They have to be willing when the spell is cast. After that, their willingness should be immaterial.

Willingness isn't the factor that changes; They no longer are a creature so aren't a valid target. And taking away objects or points in space as targets seems very intentional; the spell's a bit unwieldy. The martial has to commit, and with range of touch, it'd be best if they delayed so they can leave the caster's presence immediately! (Reach Spell would work well here, perhaps once the martial has grabbed/tripped.)

--
And yes, one needs to strip an action or the casters move, hence the reference to tripping or grappling so they can't walk away. Slow and other tactics work too. Most require some team coordination.

Looks like not too many monsters do this thankfully.

Odd to note it's also a radius, not an emanation, so the size of the target doesn't make the area larger. It's meant to be small. So keep 20' between casters. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong but at 4th it is an emanation.

Quote:
Heightened (4th) The spell effect emanates from the touched creature, silencing all sound in or passing through a 10- foot radius and preventing any auditory and sonic effects in the affected area. While within the radius, creatures are subject to the same effects as the target. Depending upon the position of the effect, a creature might notice the lack of sound reaching it (blocking off the noise coming from a party, for example).

My bad (maybe), I skimmed and saw the 10' radius.

I say 'maybe' because Bless, for example, calls itself a 5' emanation, w/ no mention of radius, same w/ Circle of Protection with its 10' emanation. 10' radius IMO sounds like an absolute, since the breadth of an emanation that begins at the edge of a creature's square wouldn't be the radius of the area. Then again Repulsion uses 'radius' & emanation...

I know what you mean. It seems like they use radius loosely or not at all. Considering only circles have radii they appear use it colloquially rather than by strict definition.

I think the rules about area type (CRB: 456) - burst, cone, emanation, line dictate what we're struggling with more than the word radius.


Yes, I agree I'd give emanation the weight of the interpretation, with the X' emanation or emanation with X' radius meaning the same thing since PF2 has done away with picking a corner of your square(s) for the most part.

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