XP list for this AP

[Razcar]

Has anyone made an XP list summary/spreadsheet for this AP and is willing to share it?

I've decided to use XP for this AP because of its sandbox nature and to reward exploration. We've used milestone levelling for years but I don't think it's a good fit for this AP. But I'm not used to the XP system of PF2 and honestly find it a bit arcane. So if anyone has made a summary that would be super helpful.

[Poboy]

What I do, to make it easier for me - as someone who exclusivley used milestone leveling his whole life - is to use the Goblin Figh Club Encounter creator:

https://pathfinder.bulik.dev/

I just set the level of the PCs then add the appropiate level of monsters, even if the library doesn't have all the module specific monsters I just use a different one of the same level, and it does the math for me. Super easy and helps me a lot :)

[Razcar]

Poboy wrote:

https://pathfinder.bulik.dev/

Thanks, great tip! I'll think I'll make a list of all the "set" XP awards myself, as if find them hard to catch when GM'ing.

[Poboy]

Glad to help :)

What would you include in the "set" XP awards?

[Razcar]

Things like "Award the heroes 30 XP for reactivating this portal." on page 28 of Ruins of Gauntlight, and sidequest XP. There might not be that many, I glanced over that info when reading the book the first time.

[Ron Lundeen]

Razcar wrote:

Things like "Award the heroes 30 XP for reactivating this portal." on page 28 of Ruins of Gauntlight, and sidequest XP. There might not be that many, I glanced over that info when reading the book the first time.

The sidequest XP is more than you might think. Doing those is a key way to reach the XP benchmarks in this AP.

(As an aside, I do have just this XP chart you're looking for, built out in development, but it's not something I can share; I prefer GMs to address that as works best for their tables.)

[Razcar]

Ron Lundeen wrote:

The sidequest XP is more than you might think. Doing those is a key way to reach the XP benchmarks in this AP.

Thanks Ron, good to know! I'll do my due diligence and make a list of my own (with my player's personal sidequests added). Maybe that will even teach me how the XP-system in PF2E works... :-)

[Ron Lundeen]

Razcar wrote:

Ron Lundeen wrote:

The sidequest XP is more than you might think. Doing those is a key way to reach the XP benchmarks in this AP.

Thanks Ron, good to know! I'll do my due diligence and make a list of my own (with my player's personal sidequests added). Maybe that will even teach me how the XP-system in PF2E works... :-)

A cheat sheet:

Did they just have a somewhat easy fight? 60 XP.
Did they just have a tough fight? 80 XP.
Did they just have a really tough fight, and it was really touch and go there for a while? 120 XP.
Did they do something story-wise to advance the plot? 30 XP.
Did they do something story-wise to advance the plot in a way that felt really important or meaningful? 80 XP.

[RicoTheBold]

Poboy wrote:

What I do, to make it easier for me - as someone who exclusivley used milestone leveling his whole life - is to use the Goblin Figh Club Encounter creator:

https://pathfinder.bulik.dev/

I just set the level of the PCs then add the appropiate level of monsters, even if the library doesn't have all the module specific monsters I just use a different one of the same level, and it does the math for me. Super easy and helps me a lot :)

As a general rule (i.e., it seems to hold up but I didn't do an exhaustive analysis to prove it) the earned XP totals for encounters are easy to adjust on the fly.

The baseline from the encounter budget table is:

Trivial: 40 or less
Low: 60
Moderate: 80
Severe: 120
Extreme: 160

In the adventures, the planned level of the encounter is included, so it will say something like "Moderate 3" and you know that it should be worth 80 XP to a level 3 party.

But wait - what if they're not level 3?
Conveniently enough, you can just change the difficulty of the encounter up or down. The totals should work out the same, which is a nice design feature since they're all built relative to party level anyway.

If they're level 2, it's suddenly a severe encounter and they should get 120 xp. If they're level 4, it's a low encounter and they'll get 60.

Again, there may be some edge cases where the math doesn't work out like that exactly, but if the encounters are built to the encounter budgets, you'll find that this should generally hold up. The biggest spots that are guaranteed to fall off are when the adjustments would push you above extreme or below trivial. But considering the former's a likely TPK and the latter may not result in a single resource expenditure by your players, it's probably not worth running as-is.

[Ron Lundeen]

RicoTheBold wrote:

Poboy wrote:

What I do, to make it easier for me - as someone who exclusivley used milestone leveling his whole life - is to use the Goblin Figh Club Encounter creator:

https://pathfinder.bulik.dev/

I just set the level of the PCs then add the appropiate level of monsters, even if the library doesn't have all the module specific monsters I just use a different one of the same level, and it does the math for me. Super easy and helps me a lot :)

As a general rule (i.e., it seems to hold up but I didn't do an exhaustive analysis to prove it) the earned XP totals for encounters are easy to adjust on the fly.

The baseline from the encounter budget table is:

Trivial: 40 or less
Low: 60
Moderate: 80
Severe: 120
Extreme: 160

In the adventures, the planned level of the encounter is included, so it will say something like "Moderate 3" and you know that it should be worth 80 XP to a level 3 party.

But wait - what if they're not level 3?
Conveniently enough, you can just change the difficulty of the encounter up or down. The totals should work out the same, which is a nice design feature since they're all built relative to party level anyway.

If they're level 2, it's suddenly a severe encounter and they should get 120 xp. If they're level 4, it's a low encounter and they'll get 60.

Again, there may be some edge cases where the math doesn't work out like that exactly, but if the encounters are built to the encounter budgets, you'll find that this should generally hold up. The biggest spots that are guaranteed to fall off are when the adjustments would push you above extreme or below trivial. But considering the former's a likely TPK and the latter may not result in a single resource expenditure by your players, it's probably not worth running as-is.

This is exactly right, and also discussed in the sidebar at the front of the second adventure.

[Zapp]

Let's illustrate this point with an example or two:

Let's have the heroes face an Ogre with four Goblins serving him. All "warriors".

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=317
https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=232

So this is an encounter with one level 3 creature and four level -1 creatures.

At party level 1, this is an Extreme encounter (160 XP). The Ogre is worth 80 XP and the goblins 20 XP each: 80+(20x4)=160

At party level 2, this is a Severe encounter (120 XP). The Ogre is worth 60 XP and the goblins 15 XP each: 60+(15x4)=120

At party level 3, this is an Moderate encounter (80 XP). The Ogre is worth 40 XP and the goblins 10 XP each: 40+(10x4)=80

In this case, the math supports the notion "difficulty goes up or down one step for each level" exactly.

---

Now let's feature a trio of Efreeti; a Janni (level 4), a Djinni (level 5) and a Shaitan (level 7) that for some reason are forced to work together.

At party level 5, this is almost an Extreme encounter (150 XP). The Efreeti are worth 30, 40 and 80 XP.

At party level 6, this is almost an Severe encounter (110 XP). The Efreeti are worth 20, 30 and 60 XP.

At party level 7, this is almost a Moderate encounter (75 XP). The Efreeti are worth 15, 20 and 40 XP.

As you can see, while we can't claim the math is exact down to the last digit, for all practical purposes the claim holds up.

[Billiam8817]

This has been really helpful stuff!

Do you have any advice for me running Trouble in Otari and Abomination vaults together? Im not sure whether to level them up at 1000xp as normal, or to increase the xp cap to 2000?

[goodkinghadrian]

I made an XP list for this AP. Note that it only includes combat XP.

I made this to evaluate what leveling system to use for my tables. The adventure said that there's plenty of XP for a party on the slow track, which I found to be true-ish overall but not for certain chapters. Chapters 1, 5, 7, and 10 don't actually have enough combat XP to level on the slow track.

[Azalin]

goodkinghadrian wrote:

I made an XP list for this AP. Note that it only includes combat XP.

I made this to evaluate what leveling system to use for my tables. The adventure said that there's plenty of XP for a party on the slow track, which I found to be true-ish overall but not for certain chapters. Chapters 1, 5, 7, and 10 don't actually have enough combat XP to level on the slow track.

If your XP list is correct, clearing all combat encounters will award far too much XP to keep the characters in the 1-10th, attaining 11th after the AP is complete level range. Completing all the side quest grants an additional 650 XP, granted the chances of that happening are slim as some quest assume the players do not attack on sight or kill a creature before it can surrender to give its quest but that will still award them close to half a level.

Chp - XP
01 - 1100

02 - 1220

03 - 1580

04 - 1100

05 - 1220

06 - 1300

07 - 1140

08 - 2280

09 - 3040

10 - 1100

Total = 15,080

Side Quest = 650

100% = 15730

Normal Progression = 15th lvl

Slow Progression = 13th lvl

Possibly adjusting the Slow Progression to Slower Progression at 1300 XP per level, and assuming the group will not complete all the side quest, this will put a group of four at 11th lvl, halfway to 12th. This does not address that there is not enough XP in the beginning to keep up. Possible increase side quest XP rewards for first chapter.

Adding Troubles in Otari.

Chapter 1 Lvl 2
A - Low - 60
Mid Mod - 80 +30
B2 - Mod - 80
B3 - Low - 60
B5 - Trivial - 60
B6 - Mod - 80
B10 - Low - 60
B11 - Severe - 120
B12 - Mod - 80
B15 - Low - 60
B16 - Mod - 80 + 60
End - 120

Total = 1030

Chapter 2 Lvl 3
A - Mod - 80
B1 - Mod - 80
B2 - Mod - 80
C1 - Mod - 80
C2 - Mod - 80
C3 - Mod - 80
D - Severe - 120
E - Mod - 80
F1 - Mod - 80
F3 - Mod - 80
F4 - Mod - 80
G - Severe - 120

Total = 1040

Chapter 3 Lvl 4
Warband - Mod - 80
Terrain - Mod - 80
Lock - 30
A1 - Low - 60
A2 - Mod - 80
A3 - Severe - 120
A4 - Mod - 80
A5 - Severe - 120
A6 - Mod - 80
A7 - Mod - 80
A8 - Extreme - 160
Return - 30

Total = 1000

All Chapters Total = 3070

This assumes introducing quest when the party attains the appropriate level and is back in town. Each of these chapters provides enough XP at the Average Progression. Combining them with their respective chapters to level in AV, far too much XP even at the Slow and Slower Progression. Dividing the XP awards in half during these portions would not award enough XP at the Slower Progression. Possibly Divide all XP in respective AV and OT chapters then increase Story XP Awards after each TO chapter.

AV Chp2 1220 + OT Chp 1 1030 = 2250/2 = 1125
Story XP = 175

AV Chp3 1580 + OT Chp 2 1040 = 2620/2 = 1310
Story XP = 0

AV Chp 4 1100 + TO Chp 3 1000 = 2100/2 = 1050
Story XP = 250

This is without taking into consideration any side quest completed in AV at this point, which equal 240 XP. If side quest in AV is completed, remove equivalent XP from corresponding chapter.

Easiest solution, Milestone leveling. Adding as much content as you would like. The extra treasure in coin, magical gear, the story and experiencing the adventures themselves should be reward enough.

I was hoping to use XP, as I wanted to see how playing P2e without Milestones would be like. With this, I feel I will have to adjust so much and that defeats the purpose. All the above work (which I really hope is correct) also does not address that I usually have 6 players. This would grant them even more XP per encounter when I adjust them. If I have 5 players I will usually leave them alone, though if all 6 are present I will adjust them for either 5 or 6 depending on how Under/Over budget I am. Hazards I leave alone as I have no clue how to adjust them for larger groups and is probably something that does not need adjusting.

[Kasoh]

Azalin wrote:

I was hoping to use XP, as I wanted to see how playing P2e without Milestones would be like. With this, I feel I will have to adjust so much and that defeats the purpose.

There is a lot of xp. Now my PCs started at level 2, but as they gain levels, they also gain less xp per encounter, so it balances out largely, still ending up about 1 level ahead by the time they hit boss like encounters.

As it turns out, I don't even track total xp in this game anymore. I just give them xp after every fight and after they complete a sidequest and let the chips fall where they may.

I love how elegant the new xp system is, the only thing I don't care for is how samey the numbers get.

[goodkinghadrian]

Note that my XP sheet assumes that the players murder everyone on the drow level. They probably won't.

[Azalin]

Dully noted. Having only just recently finished Book I and a few pages into Book II, I'll see what the most likely outcome is and readjust the XP totals for just AV alone and possibly with OT mixed in.

[willfromamerica]

Has anyone played through the first chapter of the last book? I’m interested to hear whether anyone had issues with how much XP can potentially be gained there. I’m thinking of cutting some of the repeat encounters, like the Children of Belcorra (since there are 4 different areas where you fight them).

[Grankless]

Are these calculations factoring in the fact that as soon as you level up, the encounters of your previous level will give less xp?