still new to pathfinder2e never played 1e. I'm really hoping at some point we get 2e stats for the 4 horsemen


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


I think its really cool that they are apart of the lore & had stats in 1e. I want to be able to use them in a campaign. what monsters from 1e do you want in 2e? hopping a dev pops in here to answer


Same but know japanese translated datas and wants technology styled Azata.

My focus is monster PC.

But first, Brijidine(Fire Azata i guess).


I think those are gonna be a bit further out considering how powerful they are. We are gonna needs rules for boosting power beyond level 20


The most powerful creatures we have now are level 25 - the Four Horsemen were CR 30 in PF1, and were released in Bestiary 6. It's likely gonna be a while before they get stats.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah. There would need to be some method for breaking past the level 20 barrier, at least where the numbers are concerned. If we got those creatures now then the tightness of the math would insure any combat against them would be entirely one-sided, and at that point there's functionally no difference between really high stats and no stats. It means the same thing for the players.

That being said, I really hope we get a system like that, as well as all the crazy demigod-level monsters we had in 1E. I was a particular fan of the Archdevils, but I was also big into The Horsemen and Great Old Ones, too.


...Yeah. But Raelis(Creation Azata I guess) and Brijidine are not that over-leveled Azatas(Through Elder valiant of Veranallia can be that overlevellable).


Laclale♪ wrote:
...Yeah. But Raelis(Creation Azata I guess) and Brijidine are not that over-leveled Azatas(Through Elder valiant of Veranallia can be that overlevellable).

You can easily make this through the GMG rules for building creatures. The OP, however, is likely to be waiting a little longer if they're hoping to get something of that same level of strength as PF2 currently hasn't really got anything beyond level 20 (though there are some homebrews floating around somewhere).


A level 24 creature with Elite Adjustment wouldn't be sufficient?

Remember the tighter math of PF2.


I feel like the idea of even 20th level PCs fighting a CR 24 is dubious at best.

But I guess that accurately reflects the threat that such creatures are supposed to be.

It also provides opportunities for the PCs to to reduce their power through narrative means (McGuffins) to make the fight less one sided.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

As a note, Treerazer is cr 25. The Horseman are definitely stronger than Treerazer and I would want their level to bore that out.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

9 people marked this as a favorite.

Creatures that were CR 26–30 will generally be the same range in levels 26–30 when we stat them up in Pathfinder 2nd edition. The math is certainly tighter and we can pretty easily extrapolate the numbers up to level 30, but until we have a robust set of rules for players to be able to face those creatures (whether it's a 2nd edition of Mythic or something else) we're hesitant to spend much time generating monsters in that level band.

Even at level 25, a foe like Treerazer is beyond the expected limit for a 20th level party—he's an extreme threat for a theoretical 21st level party. A campaign that faces a party against him or another level 25 foe would need to focus on building up the party in the adventures leading up to that final confrontation with artifacts, powerful allies, or bespoke abilities created specifically for that campaign so that they'd be able to face him.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
Even at level 25, a foe like Treerazer is beyond the expected limit for a 20th level party—he's an extreme threat for a theoretical 21st level party. A campaign that faces a party against him or another level 25 foe would need to focus on building up the party in the adventures leading up to that final confrontation with artifacts, powerful allies, or bespoke abilities created specifically for that campaign so that they'd be able to face him.

One thing I thought was pretty cool with the 3.5e Expedition to Castle Ravenloft adventure was the way Strahd was set up (I don't know if this bit was in the original adventure or not). Basically, there are a number of places of power in Barovia to which he is attuned, each of which gives him a significant power boost. So part of the adventure is finding out what these locations are, and going there to break his attunement (and dealing with whatever guardians are there, of course), thereby bringing Strahd down to a more manageable level. You could probably do something similar on a larger scale, over the course of an AP, to deal with something like Treerazer or Tar-Baphon. Part of that could also be locating gear that help specifically against the BBEG, or against the type of thing that BBEG does (e.g. against an old-school vampire you could have an amulet that protects against N levels of energy drain per day).

Dark Archive

On sidenote, I'm trying to figure out ABC(Ancestry, Background, Class) pun for hypothetical mythic/corruption rules/other stuff to add on to your character build.

Like hard to come up with anything descriptive character wise that starts with D, E isn't that much better(Extension or Expansion don't sound descriptive ;P )

(I'm still hyped for hypothetical level 26-30 foes in 2e)


James Jacobs wrote:

Creatures that were CR 26–30 will generally be the same range in levels 26–30 when we stat them up in Pathfinder 2nd edition. The math is certainly tighter and we can pretty easily extrapolate the numbers up to level 30, but until we have a robust set of rules for players to be able to face those creatures (whether it's a 2nd edition of Mythic or something else) we're hesitant to spend much time generating monsters in that level band.

Even at level 25, a foe like Treerazer is beyond the expected limit for a 20th level party—he's an extreme threat for a theoretical 21st level party. A campaign that faces a party against him or another level 25 foe would need to focus on building up the party in the adventures leading up to that final confrontation with artifacts, powerful allies, or bespoke abilities created specifically for that campaign so that they'd be able to face him.

is it something you guys will eventually implement? or is it off the table

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Basically if it was in 1E I want it in 2E.

I know Paizo is small and can only do so much so fast and I don't expect anything fast but I really wish we could say that anything that exists in 1E exists in 2e but that just plain isn't true. You can't currently play in a post Iron Gods Numeria because the tech doesn't exist in 2E and all the magic that interacts with tech also is absent.

You can't play Strange Aeons or similar games because the occult classes that work best with it don't exist.

That said I actually wish Paizo would slow down and do double edits because there have been lots of silly issues in 2E that would have benefited from double checks if they didn't have a publis schedule.


James Jacobs(Staff) wrote:
Creatures that were CR 26–30 will generally be the same range in levels 26–30 when we stat them up in Pathfinder 2nd edition. The math is certainly tighter and we can pretty easily extrapolate the numbers up to level 30, but until we have a robust set of rules for players to be able to face those creatures (whether it's a 2nd edition of Mythic or something else) we're hesitant to spend much time generating monsters in that level band.

I'll note "Just the Facts" from Investigator Feat requires level 40 if going to get from multi class dedication.

Nicolas Paradise wrote:
You can't play Strange Aeons or similar games because the occult classes that work best with it don't exist.

Aeons are now Law alignment.


belgrath9344 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Creatures that were CR 26–30 will generally be the same range in levels 26–30 when we stat them up in Pathfinder 2nd edition. The math is certainly tighter and we can pretty easily extrapolate the numbers up to level 30, but until we have a robust set of rules for players to be able to face those creatures (whether it's a 2nd edition of Mythic or something else) we're hesitant to spend much time generating monsters in that level band.

Even at level 25, a foe like Treerazer is beyond the expected limit for a 20th level party—he's an extreme threat for a theoretical 21st level party. A campaign that faces a party against him or another level 25 foe would need to focus on building up the party in the adventures leading up to that final confrontation with artifacts, powerful allies, or bespoke abilities created specifically for that campaign so that they'd be able to face him.

is it something you guys will eventually implement? or is it off the table

He did say 'when' not 'if', so I assume that that tier of enemy will be showing up eventually. But like James said, after some character options are available to handle it.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

6 people marked this as a favorite.
belgrath9344 wrote:
is it something you guys will eventually implement? or is it off the table

Super powerful monsters have been one of my favorite parts of RPGs, ever since I saw that Demogorgon had 200 hit points in the 1st edition AD&D Monster Manual (ONE MORE THAN ASMODEUS! HA!), so I hope some day that we'll publish some of these high level monsters again for 2nd edition. Whether or not we publish rules that give PCs a chance to fight them is less important to me, personally, but that element is 99.99995% likely to be a requirement before we can publish stats or the Horsemen or any other level 26–30 foe.

Regardless, I want to keep treating level 30 as the cap, which means that the most powerful a PC will possibly ever get is equivalent to level 26, since a level 26 party is the point where a single level 30 foe is on the chart for XP rewards.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I do think its okay for level 25 to be cap, besides it being accurate to flavor of 1e mythic, there is that its kinda fun to have one level left for the "impossible hard enemies where you either need tons of allies, artifacts or god hood to deal with them ;D


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, I'd want Level 30 creatures to fill the current role of level 25 creatures.

Just a bit more powerful than it is possible to fight, leaving room for having to get artifacts, story powers to weaken them, allies, etc, etc, etc.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
belgrath9344 wrote:
is it something you guys will eventually implement? or is it off the table

Super powerful monsters have been one of my favorite parts of RPGs, ever since I saw that Demogorgon had 200 hit points in the 1st edition AD&D Monster Manual (ONE MORE THAN ASMODEUS! HA!), so I hope some day that we'll publish some of these high level monsters again for 2nd edition. Whether or not we publish rules that give PCs a chance to fight them is less important to me, personally, but that element is 99.99995% likely to be a requirement before we can publish stats or the Horsemen or any other level 26–30 foe.

Regardless, I want to keep treating level 30 as the cap, which means that the most powerful a PC will possibly ever get is equivalent to level 26, since a level 26 party is the point where a single level 30 foe is on the chart for XP rewards.

The thing I pulled from this post is "James likes monster stat porn."

Also, assuming that his level stayed consistent between editions, that would potentially mean that the party could finish off being peers of The Whispering Tyrant, which is pretty neat.


Perpdepog wrote:
"James likes monster stat porn."

P...porn of datas? What if underage see this thread?

Dark Archive

Another reason why I think its fine for level 25 to be PC level cap is that... Well, at max level you won't gain anymore xp anyway ;D So same principle as Treerazer vs level 20 party, at that point you won't get anymore exp even from level 24 enemies as you are already strongest you can be.

(plus I kinda like the idea that strongest possible PC level is only as strong as strongest core bestiary monster ;D Really make that level 26-30 feel even more special)


CorvusMask wrote:

Another reason why I think its fine for level 25 to be PC level cap is that... Well, at max level you won't gain anymore xp anyway ;D

(plus I kinda like the idea that strongest possible PC level is only as strong as strongest core bestiary monster ;D Really make that level 26-30 feel even more special)

So, that's the reason why Capstone Feats exists.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Regardless, I want to keep treating level 30 as the cap, which means that the most powerful a PC will possibly ever get is equivalent to level 26, since a level 26 party is the point where a single level 30 foe is on the chart for XP rewards.

While I'm not taking this as "THIS WILL BE THE WAY IT GOES" (especially as you just said you don't know how it will go), this gives a good metric for possible homebrew.

For my purposes, I often play solo, but that requires an extra +2-3 to level. It works for me, but as I want to introduce others to this game via solo content. Mythic rules like we saw in PF1, that worked alongside your level, might get me there.


Laclale♪ wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
"James likes monster stat porn."
P...porn of datas? What if underage see this thread?

Not sure if this is a joke or not, but just in case, "monster stat porn" is a term, or at least the term I've heard, for having powerful creatures in a game at least partially for the sole purpose of getting to see their big stats and abilities. It's something I'm totally down for, and I feel works in a game like Pathfinder, because even with powerful creatures there is a ceiling on how high their level/CR can go, that being 30.

Otherwise it gets into the realm of "this monster is bigger" which is less exciting because at that point it's less "check out this awesome creature" and more "check out how arbitrarily big I can make these numbers," and can potentially rob the game of the opportunity to have some entities be pure plot device, which is a valuable space to have IMO.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / General Discussion / still new to pathfinder2e never played 1e. I'm really hoping at some point we get 2e stats for the 4 horsemen All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.