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Looking at finally answering the "Removing Conditions other than Disease / Poison"
What condition removal spells do people want to see made available.
Current list we are looking at:
Spells
2nd level
Dispel Magic?
Remove Fear
Remove Paralysis
Restoration
Restore Senses
3rd level
Neutralize Poison*
Remove Disease*
4th level
Remove Curse
6th level
Raise Dead
Stone to Flesh
Rituals
4th level
Atone
5th level
Resurrect
8th level
Freedom
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*You already receive these free at the end of the adventure.
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Yeah, if a permanent condition can be cast/performed by a PC, it should be available in some manner at the end of a scenario and shouldn't result in "Dead" just because you didn't have the right companion on the assignment to memorize and cast it the day after the debriefing.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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These spells should not be just "available". They should be provided free of charge except for expensive material components (namely, 6th level restoration costs 100gp, and raise dead costs [too much].
The society has a wide variety of spellcasters as it's members. The idea that none of them can spare a spell slot per day to cast remove curse or stone to flesh or restore senses to a fellow pathfinder and that the character must instead "retire" is deeply concerning, and with Fola Barun pushing to "rebuilding the Society in a way that supports and values operatives’ lives and wellbeing", I would love to see her work materialize in free condition removal.
I *think* the new guide may lack the specific wording (a 5 min search didn't find it) but I believe the guide used to explain that we get 8 days of downtime and the rest is spent on helping other members of the pathfinder society (and that field trained agents get 12 because they lack the same contacts). I think 'casting spells that don't have a cost included to remove conditions' should be part of what the pathfinders do when not on missions or doing their own things.
As to the costly spells: They should all be available, but they should all succeed automatically once you pay the cost. It's not a fun gambling game to see 'how many times do I need to pay 100gp until the restoration succeeds in removing my doomed condition', and I believe the society should hook you up with a powerful enough caster plus buffs to *almost always* guarantee the success, which should be translated into "the NPC caster always succeeds".
(I do *not* have fond memories of trying to remove a varghoul curse from a lvl 1-5 adventure back in PFS 1 and failing it again and again, nor is it desireable to have to ask PC's after the adventure on "how much extra do you want to pay? The more you pay, the more likely it is that your character does not die."
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I disagree. Most spellcasters are not just hanging around the lodge waiting to cast spells on returning agents. And even in they are, their "art" has value and should be respected. Their talents should not be relegated to "drive thru" status because of convenience. Sometimes, I think we are a bit too cavalier when it comes to imposing on other sentient creatures.
OTOH, I am certainly in favor of a discounted cost (benefits of membership), but not free. These spells could also easily be added to the AcP boon list as well so the player has the alternative to cash in their reputation with the society for perks.
I am also not in favor of making them automatically effective. That's not how the rules are written. There are no guarantees in life. Sometimes, spells fail, just like sometimes your attack misses. It is unfortunate, but its part of the game.
I just don't want these effects which are both written into the rules and part of what makes up the challenge system to be rendered moot. I think we all recall how inconsequential Disease was in PFS1. The idea that a plague zombie was more challenging than a normal one because of the disease effect was ridiculous given they were almost always used in an adventure that did not last long enough for the effect to be, well, effective.
I realize my opinion is likely to be in the minority, but its my thoughts nonetheless.
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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I just don't want these effects which are both written into the rules and part of what makes up the challenge system to be rendered moot.
At the same time, critically failing the Blindness spell should result in "Death" just because you had no Divine, Occult, or Primal spell casters of the appropriate level at your table.
I think the argument for free curative services of cost-less spells has some merit. The in-game Society imposes on our PC's time all the time. However, if it did cost money, all those counteract rolls should automatically succeed, in my opinion. The challenge of being blinded and having a 2-action restore senses cast on you is in the moment--can you get back in the fight or back to the dungeon--not in how much money it can suck out of you (because it's cost-less and in a home game, your cleric can spend all downtime trying).
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If I were writing the rules I think I would like to see all the 3rd level and below (including things heightened to 3rd level) spell casting condition removals would be free. These are generally things that are annoying, but usually clearable with time or just put you at a slight disadvantage. Even the 'permanent' ones are temporary in practice. And OP just turns them into 'mark dead' if not cleared to avoid having to deal with carrying them over.
The 6th level and above ones are the ones that are more typically truly permanent and should still have some weight to them. They shouldn't be free, but I could see a discounted price.
The 4th level ones are odd -- I'd be willing to lump Remove Curse into the free category, with a bit of distate, but Atone needs to have a cost. Probably simpler to set the paid-level to 4th and above as a result.
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What about using AcP points to purchase the services of 6th level spells?Drawing on a pool that's already being tapped for other things should have a very low cost AND auto-succeed, imo.
EDIT: Spending pp and far too much to clear a condition in PFS1 years ago almost drove me away from PFS.
EDIT2: Just had a thought:
Field-Commissioned is what I've been hearing a *lot* of people taking because 'extra money'/'time to do stuff' and the Schools have lost their 'weight'.
Could having 'school membership' waive the costs ?
And then Field-Commissioned agents have to give up the 'extra' downtime to clear conditions for a given scenario?
EDIT3: That'd be a fair trade-off, imo, for the flexibility of being field commissioned -- it's not even 'losing money' directly, but reflecting time that the Society needs to research an agent's condition, get the caster lined up, etc.
After all, a well-trained agent who'd been through the three years of schooling would be able to say "It's a curse from a haunt of 'x' variety, these are the symptoms, these are the etc"
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Blindness
Let's not get too hyperbolic. I hardly consider permanent blindness to be permanent when it can be countered with a 2nd level spell that exists on 75% of the spell tradition lists. If the restore senses spell (and the others on the proposed list) was added to the available services list, especially at a discount, its really not a major expense, even if you fail a check or two.
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I am also not in favor of making them automatically effective. That's not how the rules are written. There are no guarantees in life. Sometimes, spells fail, just like sometimes your attack misses. It is unfortunate, but its part of the game.
This is a bit of a spoiler. :)
For many of these (restoration) they just automatically work.
For the rest of them, with the exception of Atone, Raise Dead, and Resurrect, they have a counter act check.
The rule for any spell requiring a counteract check will be that if you want to buy the spellcasting service from the lodge you must buy it at one spell level higher than the effect you want to remove. That means the attempt will be successful on anything except a crit fail.
In the interest of not having to come up with attributes / spellcasting bonuses for each of the levels, we have decided to simply assert that in the rare case of a crit fail, they will cast it again for free.
Attone, Raise Dead, and Resurrection are so incredibly expensive already that we feel that simply asserting that they neither crit succeed nor fail is sufficient balancing, as a failure on any of those checks would essentially mark the character dead, after possibly have spending a fair amount of the other players money, and that was simply not conducive to a good play experience.
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Never mind. I just saw the asterisks.I have included them on the list on the grounds that PCs who have access to a lodge might want to clear them *during* a scenario, and therefore there should be a price that will allow them to do so.
And that's a bit I was missing in my 'if I were writing the rules' bit. I'd modify my suggestion to add the asterix to all those 3rd level and below instead.
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(Posting my personal observations)
I have already have drawn up the list of prices for these, but I am not willing to share it as currently it is based on some pricing assumptions, that I am waiting to get clarified.
Of the spells with a static cost, by the time you need them, they should cost only a couple treasure bundles. Especially if only one person needs them. (Remember, PFS2 TBs are *substantially above wealth by level)
Of the counteract spells, none have expensive components, and 3 of them actually affect up to 10 targets at level 6+. Assuming that in most cases a character will need a "remove condition" spell 2 spell levels higher than their "spell level" (Big bad is 2 levels higher, and you need a spell level one higher than that)
Based on that, if you have to pay off a counteract spell, it won't be fun, but it won't cripple your characters. And if other PCs can help, it should not even be painful.
For about the first 5 levels, Atonement will *hurt*. But that is kind of the point. After that, Atonement will set you back about 1 to 1/2 an adventure. (depending on level)
Resurrect isn't really an option till 6th level, and after 8th, it will set you back about 2 games worth of gold. (The Envoy's Alliance "Bring them back alive will reduce that to about 1 to 1 1/2 games)
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Let's face it, adventuring is dangerous, otherwise everyone would do it. Conditions happen, and getting them cleared for free means that you are taking the danger out of adventuring. Again, making it so everyone could do it.
If everyone could do it, we wouldn't be paid such a high price for being sent out. Since we work for a world-wide organization, it would be nice that they offer alternative forms of payment (AcP), but since they don't pay for your sword and shield, or your staves and wands, they shouldn't pay for your conditions to come off either. This is a cost of being an adventurer. You take the risk with the reward.
If you don't want the risk, go back to doing whatever your background had you doing. Run that tavern, practice law, be a gladiator - you chose to leave those things to adventure because of the better money, the fame, and the glory. Those three things come with the risk of blindness, deafness, and death.
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...and that was simply not conducive to a good play experience.
To be fair that is a subjective opinion, but based on your commentary it sounds like it has already been decided that the services will automatically be successful if there is a check involved. Though it sounds a bit odd that there is also a chance for a critical failure. Be interesting to see how that works. I can't say I'm not disappointed, but I can understand the reasoning.
It also sounds like these services will have a cost somewhat on par to the spellcasting services listed in the CRB. If that is true, at least that part appeases my personal disposition. And if someone is working on an AcP solution, that is a good sign as well.
Do you have any timeline when this might release?
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...and that was simply not conducive to a good play experience.Though it sounds a bit odd that there is also a chance for a critical failure.
It is more that for counteract spells, a crit fail should happen something like 1 in 20 times, and won't prevent the caster from trying again, while a simple failure still clears the condition. So we are asserting that *if* a crit fail occurs, they cast it again for free.
For Atone / Raise Dead / Resurrection we are somewhat bending the rules in the interests of not having to add a lot of complexity. For those, the spell is assumed to be a basic success.
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Let's face it, adventuring is dangerous, otherwise everyone would do it.
This is not to refute the point, but I do find issues with how the the organized play style campaign and the game interact. In non-organized play, I can curate my fellow players and the group can build common play styles together. If a character suffers a malady, we have adventure after adventure to raise the funds to deal with it (and more likely have someone to cast what's necessary).
In organized you have limited to control over who you play with and if the guy who thinks playing the 8 Strength fighter with a great sword is hilarious shows up, you've kind of got to play with him. If you suffer a malady, you only have that one session to fix it.
All that is to say the game is not designed for the game's assumptions, so adjustments (like auto-succeeding curative spells and AcP cures) are reasonable to make the play flow better.
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Let's face it, adventuring is dangerous, otherwise everyone would do it.This is not to refute the point, but I do find issues with how the the organized play style campaign and the game interact. In non-organized play, I can curate my fellow players and the group can build common play styles together. If a character suffers a malady, we have adventure after adventure to raise the funds to deal with it (and more likely have someone to cast what's necessary).
In organized you have limited to control over who you play with and if the guy who thinks playing the 8 Strength fighter with a great sword is hilarious shows up, you've kind of got to play with him. If you suffer a malady, you only have that one session to fix it.
All that is to say the game is not designed for the game's assumptions, so adjustments (like auto-succeeding curative spells and AcP cures) are reasonable to make the play flow better.
But making things too accessible negates some of the reasons why classes exist at all. One of the benefits of divine spellcasters is condition removal, if the price is low and accessibility high (e.g., ability to buy it during an adventure), it skews the game from its design concepts.
I think many of the proposals here are fine in concept but not scaled in accordance with other purchases. The Practiced Medic boon costs AcP *and* Downtime just to save 2d8 hit points, things like Remove Curse should be way more (or things like Practiced Medic less).
I don't know if there are any more installment purchases, e.g., Raise Dead is 40 AcP or 20 AcP up front and the next 30 you earn. That always seemed thematic to me. I think charging Downtime is fine too, e.g., 20 AcP plus 30 Downtime days volunteering at the temple that removed your curse.
Overall, I side with the "adventuring is dangerous" crowd. Being blinded is supposed to be a big deal, there should be a way to remove it but it should hurt, and if you've got a cleric on your team it should seem miraculous that you got healed.
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But making things too accessible negates some of the reasons why classes exist at all.
I see a difference between a home game with a Session 0 (or even the 30 minutes before playing a 1-off adventure) where a home group decides how their going to build their team and can make sure they've got their bases covered (or mutually agree to bring 3 wizards and 2 barbarians) compared to Organized Play where everyone brought their Gunslinger to the table the day after the class was sanctioned. Sure, some of those Gunslingers might have Assurance in Medicine, but that doesn't help if you critically fail your save vs. Blindness (and didn't have a clue if you should Hero Point it because you didn't bother to take Recognize Spell let alone the skill training to pass the check). Or a disease. Or a curse.
Or an unfriendly player who brought a cleric but at the end of the scenario says to the blind character, "Naw. My characters doesn't like your character. Sorry. It's not PvP!"
So, yes, being blinded is a big deal--especially in the middle of a dungeon or fight--but usually you'd be able to take your adventuring companion to the temple to have their malady fixed rather than mercy killing them (mark the character as Dead).
We're in a high magic campaign setting. Temples and priests are everywhere and Absalom is one of the biggest cities around. So status removal isn't exactly "miraculous."
On the likelihood that Restore Senses is even available to your PFS party: Sure, it's on 75% of the lists but only 12.5% of the classes are going to have it. Bards, Oracles, and Sorcerers are not likely to spend one of their precious spell slots on Restore Senses.
So being able to purchase the service (with gold, discounted or otherwise, or AcP) at the end of the session doesn't negate the danger of, say, Blindness in the middle of a scenario.
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Wait, second chance still require you to pay the gold? What are you getting from the boon, then?Also, yeah, what's the boon do?You pay for anything above 1000gp, so your character would need to be level 14 before you pay out of pocket.
It's like actual insurance but in reserve.
You would only be fully covered up to level 10. And only if the body is present and largely intact. (Reread the resurrect spell, specifically the heightening section.)
Raise dead you would be covered up until ~4th level.
If you only have part of the body you are going to have to pay some out of pocket.
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The ritual takes 1 day to perform and automatically succeeds.
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Bards, Oracles, and Sorcerers are not likely to spend one of their precious spell slots on Restore Senses.
They can buy scrolls.
I'm not saying the mechanism shouldn't exist for condition removal between scenarios, just that it should be expensive or otherwise painful relative to preparing the party in advance.
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. . . relative to preparing the party in advance.
How do you prepare a PFS party in advance? Not a home, cultivated group of friends reporting PFS, but a random assortment of players at a convention or global competition for truly open online tables where any of the players could be random folk trying out PF2 and playing a pregen. Several people have talked about "being prepared" and "making sure" you have someone who can cast the right spells. That's the home game talking and where organized play breaks down from the assumption.
So what is prepared in advance in your mind? Making the right friends, playing the right class yourself, buying scrolls of every curative spell you could need in advance? And why should the between scenario solution--since you can't adventure, your friends can't adventure to raise funds to heal your curse and so you get retired--be more painful than buying a scroll?
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So what is prepared in advance in your mind? Making the right friends, playing the right class yourself, buying scrolls of every curative spell you could need in advance?
You don't need hyperbole.
We all know which conditions are more likely or less likely to show up.
And for many, if not most scenarios, there's an opportunity to buy stuff after the mission briefing. So if the 6 random characters show up to Serpent Showdown at Poison Lake, it's not unreasonable for someone to question whether the group should have a few contingencies to deal with poison.
And why should the between scenario solution--since you can't adventure, your friends can't adventure to raise funds to heal your curse and so you get retired--be more painful than buying a scroll?
Because ex post facto healing should always come at a premium.
There are ways to structure the payment so that people pay on an installment plan, or they give up downtime, or whatever - so that nobody ever has to retire a character just because they're cursed. It's just more expensive.
I'm not even advocating a specific fraction/percentage premium, just that it should be non-zero.