Haste and animal companions


Rules Discussion


Hi every1

we are playing AoA, we are at the end of book 4 and we have a druid with animal companion and a Monk with beastmaster dedication so he has another animal companion... our wizard have haste memorized at lvl 7 and we are wondering what happens to animal companios if they are one of the targets of the haste... if their master orders them and gives them 2 actions, can they gain the extra action of the Haste effect, so they will have 3 actions or are not affected at all

Thanks


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As Haste grants Quickened, and Quickened grants actions at the start of the creature's round, but the Animal Companion doesn't have a round and won't have actions until commanded by the PC, I would have to say that RAW Haste doesn't seem to do anything for Animal Companions.


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I would allow the companion to gain the benefits of haste. Saying they cannot gain the benefit because they don't technically have their own rounds means they also cannot be affected by things like various poisons, which seems silly to me.

Besides, feats like Mature Animal Companion do let companions act without a command from the PC.


You can quicken an animal companion, but unfortunately it does you no good.

CRB PG. 634 "Minion Trait" wrote:
Minions are creatures that directly serve another creature. A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands. For an animal companion, you Command an Animal; for a minion that’s a spell or magic item effect, like a summoned minion, you Sustain a Spell or Sustain an Activation; if not otherwise specified, you issue a verbal command, a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits. If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.

All animal companions have the Minion trait. This means that they can only use 2 actions exactly on a turn where they are commanded, so while they could technically have a 3rd action from Quickened, they wouldn't be able to use it.

Similarly the feats that grant them an action when you don't command them, like Mature Animal Companion for the Druid, say that they can use 1 action exactly when not commanded, even if they have more than 1 action to spend.


They are also immune the slow because of the same ruling.


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siegfriedliner wrote:
They are also immune the slow because of the same ruling.

I think that this will not fly well in our table... with this logic, animal companions are inmmune to stun 1 too as they dont regain actions at the start of their turn... and confused, because they always act as controlled by another creture... i find that this path of reasoning is not right


wujenta wrote:
siegfriedliner wrote:
They are also immune the slow because of the same ruling.
I think that this will not fly well in our table... with this logic, animal companions are inmmune to stun 1 too as they dont regain actions at the start of their turn... and confused, because they always act as controlled by another creture... i find that this path of reasoning is not right

It helps if you conceptualize what exactly is happening when your Animal Companion get's their "turn". If they weren't your minion, and instead were just an animal like a store bought horse, they would have their own turn with 3 actions like any other creature. In my opinion, this doesn't change when they gain the Minion tag.

They have a full 3 actions, and even a reaction as any other creature. They just can't use more than 2 of them, or their reaction at all, because they are spending their time listening to you rather than operating autonomously. So stunned 1 really doesn't effect an animal companion altogether too much imo, but stunned 2 would reduce them to 1 action and stunned 3 would stop them from acting at all. Stunned for a duration (rare as that is) would obviously still stop them from acting at all as normal. If they were to somehow lose the Minion trait, they would just carry on as a normal creature of their type on their own initiative.

It's messy, but it's part of Paizo's balance to minions to prevent them from dominating the game. That and only being able to control 4 of them at a time. But it tends to balance out. You don't gain anything for hasting your companion, but you also don't lose anything should they be slowed/stunned 1.

As to confused, they aren't actually immune to that. If anything, it places your Animal Companion under the GM's control, since you can't directly command it any longer. Whether they only get 2 actions or 3 during that confusion is purely up to the GM though, and how the interpret the rules. I personally go with 3, as without operating as your minion, they should just be a normal creature.

Edit: Conversely you could rule that one of their actions is spent "listening" to their master, so Stunned 1 would reduce them to 1 effective action on your turn even when commanded I suppose. But that is not 100% stated in the rules. I prefer making them essentially immune, as it balances out their inability to take advantage of their quickened action nicely.


wujenta wrote:
siegfriedliner wrote:
They are also immune the slow because of the same ruling.
I think that this will not fly well in our table... with this logic, animal companions are inmmune to stun 1 too as they dont regain actions at the start of their turn... and confused, because they always act as controlled by another creture... i find that this path of reasoning is not right

It's fine to do this in other ways based on whatever internal logic you want to follow but it makes for RAW to be very specific and also narrow to avoid a wall of text of every possible scenario.

In our session yesterday I told my druid player that he can't use his animal companion for complex maneuvers (attacking a new opponent, or flanking after an opponent changed position) because he was outside the room that it was fighting in at that moment. But that's hardly RAW either. Also I already let the Companion use his reaction after he spent the actions to ready.


Yeah that rule is kinda unclear. A discussion abot this came up in relation to animate dead as well. If you use animate dead and summon a zombie, how does its slow condition affect it?

Personally im of the mind that neither quickened nor slowed affect animal companions and other minions. Partly because RAW minions dont really have a "start of their turn", but also because i think summoning zombies would suck too much if they only got 1 action.

I think stunned would affect them because as opposed to slowed, which specifically mentions the start of your turn, stunned just says "whenever you gain actions (such as at the start of your turn)". so its not limited to the start of a turn

Dark Archive

After watching a Dhampir Cleric summoning Zombies in conjunction with Final Sacrifice to great effect I decided to make a similar character. They were running the summons as having only 1 action, and I was going to as well, but I guess now I'll just ask each GM from table to table.


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Asethe wrote:
As Haste grants Quickened, and Quickened grants actions at the start of the creature's round, but the Animal Companion doesn't have a round and won't have actions until commanded by the PC, I would have to say that RAW Haste doesn't seem to do anything for Animal Companions.

I think too many things break if you view that Animal Companions don't have a turn. Without a begining or end of turn lots of stuff just doesn't work. Do you really want to make them immune to persistent damage? Or unable for any condition like Frightened to end naturally on them? It is just too gross to contemplate.

The way I think about it is not explicitly supported by the rules.
However it is totally in line with them.

Basically minions are viewed to have 3 actions. But they must spend one of their actions listening to their master before they can do anything else. So they normally have 2 actions to use. They can be affected by haste, slow, and stun just like anyone else. They still in fact have a start and end of their turn even though it wholly occurs inside their masters turn.

It is really very simple as an explanation and it handles all these cases quite nicely.


Gortle wrote:
Asethe wrote:
As Haste grants Quickened, and Quickened grants actions at the start of the creature's round, but the Animal Companion doesn't have a round and won't have actions until commanded by the PC, I would have to say that RAW Haste doesn't seem to do anything for Animal Companions.

I think too many things break if you view that Animal Companions don't have a turn. Without a begining or end of turn lots of stuff just doesn't work. Do you really want to make them immune to persistent damage? Or unable for any condition like Frightened to end naturally on them? It is just too gross to contemplate.

The way I think about it is not explicitly supported by the rules.
However it is totally in line with them.

Basically minions are viewed to have 3 actions. But they must spend one of their actions listening to their master before they can do anything else. So they normally have 2 actions to use. They can be affected by haste, slow, and stun just like anyone else. They still in fact have a start and end of their turn even though it wholly occurs inside their masters turn.

It is really very simple as an explanation and it handles all these cases quite nicely.

I like this explanation a lot, as it solves that problems, i dont think an extra action to the animal companions will make them broken

Horizon Hunters

siegfriedliner wrote:
They are also immune the slow because of the same ruling.

Specific override general.

Haste would override the 2 actions from minion / 1 action from mature the same way if override the 3 actions to the player.
Still the "turn factor" in slow/stun/haste are not clarified yet.

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