I have wondered about this, as well.
Do living things with a borrow speed still breath underground?
They should be able to pinpoint the location of anything touching the ground, right?
So the lamppost, the table (but not the utensils on it), the chest, and tree roots.
Open space doesn't vibrate, and thus may show up as an area of "static" in their sensory radar.
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Since this has come up, I am hoping to get some manner of official response, but I also know this is likely to fall into 'DM call', but I shall try none the less.
Tremorsense (Ex)
A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.Now, the questions:
1: Does a creature with tremorsense have the ability to know what the local area around it is like? Examples: 'There are stairs here. There is a lamppost here. There is a table here. There are utensils on the table here. The floor goes up/down.'
2: Does a creature using tremorsense know if there are open spaces underground within its range? Would it notice a pocket of air or water or lava or whatnot in the ground? Would it notice a chest, or a corpse? Tree roots?
3: Would it notice secret tunnels or passages because the space behind those doors is open, but covered up by the wall/bookshelf?
4: Would it be able to figure out the way a maze turns within its range by noting when there is open space and when there is not?
Or are earth elementals and other such entities basically completely blind while burrowing and only able to detect creatures on the surface?
No to all of those. you need blindsense to get that kind of details.
Tremorsense give what the text says and nothing more. You can locate the square that a creature occupies.
1: Does a creature with tremorsense have the ability to know what the local area around it is like? Examples: 'There are stairs here. There is a lamppost here. There is a table here. There are utensils on the table here. The floor goes up/down.'
No, but extremely heightened senses like somatosensations for Blindsight would do that, but not Tremorsense. Tremorsense senses vibrations when someone contacts the ground and causes a vibration, just like Blindsense senses an occupied space in open air. Blindsight provides an actual 3D-mapping of the environment, but Blindsense would not. Blindsense is powerful, it is not quite as powerful as Blindsight. Both Blindsense and Blindsight are negated in a vacuum, and neither can be used across planes, but Blindsight can be used underwater (it is debatable that Blindsense can be used underwater-- I would argue in favor that it is).
The term somatosensation (or somatosensory senses) is an all encompassing term which includes the sub-categories of mechanoreception (vibration, pressure, discriminatory touch), thermoreception (temperature), nociception (pain), equilibrioception (balance) and proprioception (sense of positioning and movement). <---- Btw, none of these are an actual thing in Pathfinder, these are scientific terms-- Pathfinder rolls all of these somatosensations into "Blindsight", and specifically calls out that Blindsight includes but isn't limited to: "Sensitivity to Vibrations", "Acute Scent", "Keen Hearing", and "Echolocation". And some form of Blindsight is what would be required for 3D-mapping of an area. Not only would you be able to see stairs, lamp posts, walls, and horse carriages, but you'd also be able to see flying/swimming enemies.
2: Does a creature using tremorsense know if there are open spaces underground within its range? Would it notice a pocket of air or water or lava or whatnot in the ground? Would it notice a chest, or a corpse? Tree roots?
Also no. Tremorsense is usually limited to a range of 30ft or 60ft or 120ft, so even if this WAS possible, mapping out open underground spaces would simply be out of range.
3: Would it notice secret tunnels or passages because the space behind those doors is open, but covered up by the wall/bookshelf?
Also no. The closest thing to this would be the spell Detect Secret Doors and the Psionic power Locate Secret Doors, which would allow you to see secret compartments behind bookshelves, etc.
4: Would it be able to figure out the way a maze turns within its range by noting when there is open space and when there is not?
Negative ghostrider.
Or are earth elementals and other such entities basically completely blind while burrowing and only able to detect creatures on the surface?
Earth Elementals have Earthglide, which allows them to travel through earth as easily as an air elemental travels through air. They leave no tunnel or evidence of digging/burrowing whatsoever. As far as "are they blind?" No, they're not blind, but their vision is limited, but it's about the same as someone who has Darkvision traveling through complete darkness. Earth Elementals have Tremorsense out to 60ft, just like some races have Darkvision out to 60ft.
1: Does a creature with tremorsense have the ability to know what the local area around it is like? Examples: 'There are stairs here. There is a lamppost here. There is a table here. There are utensils on the table here. The floor goes up/down.'No, but extremely heightened senses like somatosensations for Blindsight would do that, but not Tremorsense. Tremorsense senses vibrations when someone contacts the ground and causes a vibration, just like Blindsense senses an occupied space in open air. Blindsight provides an actual 3D-mapping of the environment, but Blindsense would not. Blindsense is powerful, it is not quite as powerful as Blindsight. Both Blindsense and Blindsight are negated in a vacuum, and neither can be used across planes, but Blindsight can be used underwater (it is debatable that Blindsense can be used underwater-- I would argue in favor that it is).
The term somatosensation (or somatosensory senses) is an all encompassing term which includes the sub-categories of mechanoreception (vibration, pressure, discriminatory touch), thermoreception (temperature), nociception (pain), equilibrioception (balance) and proprioception (sense of positioning and movement). <---- Btw, none of these are an actual thing in Pathfinder, these are scientific terms-- Pathfinder rolls all of these somatosensations into "Blindsight", and specifically calls out that Blindsight includes but isn't limited to: "Sensitivity to Vibrations", "Acute Scent", "Keen Hearing", and "Echolocation". And some form of Blindsight is what would be required for 3D-mapping of an area. Not only would you be able to see stairs, lamp posts, walls, and horse carriages, but you'd also be able to see flying/swimming enemies.
^------ I should clarify this a bit more with regards to your specific questions.
In terms of being able to use Blindsight to 3-D map an area, generally speaking, you would need to physically be in that area in order to 3-D map it. What I mean by that is you wouldn't be able to map out a area behind a bookshelf secret door, but you would be able to see the bookshelf and everything else in the room that you currently occupy. It would be a rare case that you could use Blindsight to 3-D map a room that you're currently not occupying.
For example, if you possessed a form of Blindsight that used thermoreception and mechanoreception, and there was a low roar of a Printing Press or some large, vibration/heat-producing machine behind a closed door, you could argue that it is possible to 3-D map everything in that room due to the heat and vibration.
^---- this is highly subject to case-by-case GM allowance/fiat.
But, if you came upon a closed door and there were 3 thieves waiting in ambush who are touching the ground, you could easily use your Tremorsense to sense where the 3 thieves are (but not be able to map the room). In order for your to use Tremorsense to see what's going on in another room, it would need to be providing some type of vibration that is touching the floor. It wouldn't allow you to 3-D map the room and say "oh yeah, there's a plant in the corner, a desk, and a bookshelf with 27 books on it", but you'd easily be able to see someone moving into position to ambush you from behind the door.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can you clarify or give an example?
Yeah I agree. I think Earth Elementals would be able to detect lava though. Lava is an extreme heat that you can feel from a hundred feet away in open air, and I bet it's a similar range for earth.
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@Talon881
The monster's abilities lack detail way too often.
A burrowing creature needs to know the terrain ahead and tremorsense doesn't help.
Blindsense and blindsight even less, as they require Line of Effect.
RL creatures have a relatively slow speed and use chemoreceptors, sensitivity to vibrations, some even magnetic sensors, to navigate underground. Fantasy creatures should have the same range of abilities but making an entry for each one would increase the number of pages of the Bestiaries without a real benefit for the game.
The best solution for the GM is to decide that a creature has a range of perception in the appropriate medium, sufficient to allow it to function.
So, as an example, an earth elemental would have "earth sight 30', i.e. the ability to see through earth, rock, and possibly lava, to a range of 30', but that vision would be blocked by tur, a wooden floor and so on.
It is not necessarily perception by real sight, it can be any kind of ability, but it should be enough that it will be able to perceive its immediate surroundings.
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Tremorsense (Ex)
A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.
,,No to all of those. you need blindsense to get that kind of details.
Tremorsense give what the text says and nothing more. You can locate the square that a creature occupies.Diego, I think your RAW interpretation is wrong. Anything is not restricted to creatures, it includes objects as well... The creature restriction is only for aquatic creatures through water.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
Pinpoint is very limited.
It's limited when it comes to fighting enemies, but if there was a treasure chest on the ground in a nearby secret room, the 'automatically pinpoint anything' effect should mean you can sense that there's an object in that square, even if you don't know what the object is or how to get to it. You should also be able to tell the approximate size of the object (since an object the size of an elephant would take up multiple squares).
Whether a wall or a door is a thing "in contact with the ground" is more questionable.
Tremorsense give what the text says and nothing more. You can locate the square that a creature occupies.Diego, I think your RAW interpretation is wrong. Anything is not restricted to creatures, it includes objects as well... The creature restriction is only for aquatic creatures through water.A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.Pinpoint is very limited.
Diego, you are my favourite contributor to these forums - your answers are always so clear, and you have an amazing in-depth knowledge of the rules! However, on this rare occasion, I'm not sure that I agree with you. I don't think there's anything in the invisibility rules (or the other mentions of pinpointing) that suggests that it can only be used with respect to creatures.
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I was mostly pointing out that "pinpoint" isn't the same as detailed knowledge. You pinpoint a location, with something in it. You can surely know the size of the creature or moving object, its general direction of movement, and similar stuff.
As it is Tremorsense, I am less convinced that you can detect a stationary object that does nothing (you would detect a running engine, not one turned off).
But even assuming that it works as an active sonar and you emit some kind of vibration and read the return signal, pinpointing something doesn't allow you to know what is it with precision. You pinpoint the location of something. Nothing more.
Plus you have the "in contact with the ground" part. Dirt and natural stone? No problem. Stone floor, I would say ok. Wooden floor? It doesn't work.
On the upper floor of an edifice? Nope.
On stairs that aren't cut in the rock? Nope.
An empty space isn't in contact with anything.
If we use the sonar example you would read as an absence of signal beyond that point. Enough to know that there is an empty space, not enough to map what is in it.
You don't get: "a chest behind the wall". You get: "floor, a long and narrow line of material after 3 meters, beyond that another area where there is a bare floor, then, after 2 meters, an object? creature? roughly small-sized." That is what pinpointing anything give you.
As the vertical part of the wall isn't in contact with the ground, you will detect the wall base, nothing above that.
The RAW is pretty unambiguous that you can detect stationary silent objects, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if that wasn't the intent. That's for the GM to decide.
I would probably allow it to work on a wooden/upstairs floor. 'The ground' is rarely used in RPG rules to mean anything beyond a surface you could walk on. For example:
Prone
The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls...
You couldn't get away with saying, "I shouldn't suffer prone penalties because I'm not on the ground, I'm lying on a bed."
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The RAW is pretty unambiguous that you can detect stationary silent objects, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if that wasn't the intent. That's for the GM to decide.
I would probably allow it to work on a wooden/upstairs floor. 'The ground' is rarely used in RPG rules to mean anything beyond a surface you could walk on. For example:
You couldn't get away with saying, "I shouldn't suffer prone penalties because I'm not on the ground, I'm lying on a bed."Prone
The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls...
While the term "ground" is used in different ways, saying that earth elementals tremorsense works for upper floors of a building is really stretching it too much.
The problem is that tremorsense covers many different sensory abilities of different creatures. The tremorsense of a giant scorpion is different from that of an earth elemental.
While the term "ground" is used in different ways, saying that earth elementals tremorsense works for upper floors of a building is really stretching it too much.
I don't see that as much of a stretch. If someone is stomping about on the floor above me, the vibrations pass through the whole building.
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While the term "ground" is used in different ways, saying that earth elementals tremorsense works for upper floors of a building is really stretching it too much.I don't see that as much of a stretch. If someone is stomping about on the floor above me, the vibrations pass through the whole building.
But you don't get any information about stationary objects .....
It is a bit greedy and probably against RAI wanting both and defining ground in the broadest sense of the term.
RAW?
Ground is used in different ways in the rules, how it should be used in this instance is a matter of opinion.
Pinpoint is clear in the rules, so you know the position of something/someone, but you don't know what/who he/it is and what he/it is doing.
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Might be a confusion over the game term 'pinpoint'? After all, the phrase 'pinpoint accuracy' usually means accurate to within a pin's width of the target, not 'somewhere within a few feet of it'.
The relevant rule is:
Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).
Not to be confused with:
Pinpoint Targeting (Combat)
You can target the weak points in your opponent’s armor.
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Precise Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +16.
Benefit: As a standard action, make a single ranged attack. The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.