Alchemical Crossbow + Bombs interaction


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Alchemical Crossbow

Quote:


This crossbow can deliver alchemically infused bolts. The strange weapon has a metal bracket mounted on the side of the stock near the lath. As an action, you can load a single lesser alchemical bomb into the bracket; this bomb must be one that deals energy damage (such as an acid flask, alchemist’s fire, bottled lightning, frost vial, or thunderstone). The next three attacks made with the crossbow deal 1d6 damage of the bomb’s damage type in addition to the crossbow’s normal damage. If the second and third attacks are not all made within 1 minute of the first attack, the bomb’s energy is wasted. These attacks never deal splash damage or other special effects of the bomb and are not modified by any abilities that add to or modify a bomb’s effect.

Energy Damage

Quote:


Many spells and other magical effects deal energy damage. [..] The main types of energy damage are acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. Two special types of energy damage specifically target the living and the undead. Positive damage harms only undead creatures, withering undead bodies and disrupting incorporeal undead. Negative damage saps life, damaging only living creatures.

Powerful and pure magical energy can manifest itself as force damage. Few things can resist this type of damage—not even incorporeal creatures such as ghosts and wraiths.

1) So energy damage is "Acid, cold, elec, fire, sonic, positive, negative, force". I can imbue all those damage type in my crossbow?

2) Based on that, i can't imbue "Alignment Damage", "Mental Damage" and "Poison damage" ?

Ghost Charge

Quote:


These spring-loaded metal canisters contain a mixture of chemicals and salts that drain and disintegrate nearby undead creatures. A ghost charge deals the listed positive damage and splash damage, though as usual for positive damage, this damage harms only undead and creatures with negative healing. Ghost charges are designed to explode even on contact with a spiritual substance, making them ideal for damaging incorporeal undead. A primary target that takes damage from a ghost charge becomes enfeebled until the start of your next turn. Many types grant an item bonus to attack rolls.

3) I know i can't use "special effect of the bombs", but i wanna understand if the bolded part is flavor or not. A crossbow infused with this "bomb" gain [1d8 positive damage]. It gain also the "Ghost Touch" property, or it's just flavor since all "incorporeal" (?) got the weakness to "Resistances all damage 5 (except force, ghost touch, or positive; double resistance vs. non-magical)"

4) All the damage is "extra damage", not a override damage. So if i do "1d8 piercing damage" + "1d8 flaming damage" a creature immune to "FIRE" ignore only the "flaming damage". A creature immune to "PIERCING" ignore only the piercing damage. The same thing apply to WEAKNESS. Right?

Precision Damage

Quote:


Precision: You have trained to aim for your prey’s weak points. The first time you hit your hunted prey in a round, you also deal 1d8 additional precision damage. (Precision damage increases the damage you already deal, using the same type, but is ineffective against creatures that lack vital organs or weak points.) At 11th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8 precision damage, and at 19th level, the extra damage increases to 3d8 precision damage.

4) A ranger can add precision damage to cantrip spell. A ranger who attack with a crossbow and deal multiple type of damage, can choose which kind of damage he increase with his "Precision Damage"?


1+2)yup, it seems tht way. You can only use bombs that do energy damage to enhance the bow. Although i think that most GMs would be ok with the poison one (although, tbf, there are other specific poisons for the same purpose aka poisoning bolts)

3)it doesn't say that it gains ghost touch, so it doesn't. But indeed positive damage will cause an incorporeal great harm through the weakness.

4)Yes and no. You apply weakness/resistance only once per attack (exluding "resist all" which has different, specific, text), using the highest number. So if a target you hit with an alchemical crossbow treated with alchemist's fire has weakness to physical 3 and weakness to fire 5, you only apply the fire weakness (since it's the largest)

5)i'd say yes, but that's more of a GM call. It's extremely niche since the only case i can see that it may matter is if something has greater resistance than your total amount of damage of one type+ the xtra amount of precision damage AND you also have a secondary damage type that isn't resisted.


shroudb wrote:
4)Yes and no. You apply weakness/resistance only once per attack (exluding "resist all" which has different, specific, text), using the highest number. So if a target you hit with an alchemical crossbow treated with alchemist's fire has weakness to physical 3 and weakness to fire 5, you only apply the fire weakness (since it's the largest)

I'm not so sure about this part, as the fire charges probably count as additional damage so probably the both physical and weakness are applied for each separably.


I would think most GM probably would be fine with poison bombs working with it as that is probably the most sensible application of an auto applicator type thing. It would still be a GM call though as it does look like it only applies to actual energy type damage.


YuriP wrote:
shroudb wrote:
4)Yes and no. You apply weakness/resistance only once per attack (exluding "resist all" which has different, specific, text), using the highest number. So if a target you hit with an alchemical crossbow treated with alchemist's fire has weakness to physical 3 and weakness to fire 5, you only apply the fire weakness (since it's the largest)
I'm not so sure about this part, as the fire charges probably count as additional damage so probably the both physical and weakness are applied for each separably.

Adding Additional damage doesn't change the fact that it still is 1 instance of damage happening.

p.453 Weaknesses:

Quote:
If you have a weakness to something that doesn't normally deal damage, such as water, you take damage equal to the weakness value when touched or affected by it. If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value. This usually happens only when a monster is weak to both a type of physical damage and a given material.

similaly, same page, on the Resistance:

Quote:

If you have more than one type of resistance that would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable resistance value.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I dont think you're reading that right.

If a creature has weakness 5 Silver and weakness 3 slashing, then a silver battleaxe dealing 7 slashing damage would only trigger the weakness 5 silver, as the highest weakness that applies to that 7 damage.

Slashing damage and fire damage from the same attack could still trigger both weakness to slashing and weakness to fire, though.


HammerJack wrote:

I dont think you're reading that right.

If a creature has weakness 5 Silver and weakness 3 slashing, then a silver battleaxe dealing 7 slashing damage would only trigger the weakness 5 silver, as the highest weakness that applies to that 7 damage.

Slashing damage and fire damage from the same attack could still trigger both weakness to slashing and weakness to fire, though.

why?

isn't it all still 1 attack doing the damage?

i mean, in the actual Steps of how to resolve an attack, you add the Additional damage in the whole process, and then at the end you subtract from the target in the final step.

If we don't count Additional damage as part of the same damage instance, then stuff like critical multiplying it wouldn't happen, since that part is also on that "damage instance" and we KNOW that this is wrong and you do multiply them as well.

So Additional damage, is clearly part of the same damage instance.

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
shroudb wrote:
HammerJack wrote:

I dont think you're reading that right.

If a creature has weakness 5 Silver and weakness 3 slashing, then a silver battleaxe dealing 7 slashing damage would only trigger the weakness 5 silver, as the highest weakness that applies to that 7 damage.

Slashing damage and fire damage from the same attack could still trigger both weakness to slashing and weakness to fire, though.

why?

isn't it all still 1 attack doing the damage?

i mean, in the actual Steps of how to resolve an attack, you add the Additional damage in the whole process, and then at the end you subtract from the target in the final step.

If we don't count Additional damage as part of the same damage instance, then stuff like critical multiplying it wouldn't happen, since that part is also on that "damage instance" and we KNOW that this is wrong and you do multiply them as well.

So Additional damage, is clearly part of the same damage instance.

It has been confirmed by a designer that the intent is that an "instance" is each bundle of damage type, except those that "augment" another one, like special materials that augment the physical damages of weapons, but not the damage from property runes.

part of the last quote you ommitted wrote:
This usually happens only when a monster is weak to both a type of physical damage and a given material.

This quote actually tells you that each "damage type" is a different instance, and that "material + physical damage" is the most common exception. Other exceptions should be defined in the effect dealing the damage.

same page as your quotes wrote:
It’s possible to have resistance to all damage. When an effect deals damage of multiple types and you have resistance to all damage, apply the resistance to each type of damage separately. If an attack would deal 7 slashing damage and 4 fire damage, resistance 5 to all damage would reduce the slashing damage to 2 and negate the fire damage entirely.

This actually also shows you how to treat "weakness slashing and fire" on a flaming sword. If "resist all" applies to each type of damage, or "instances", it should be the same for two different resistances or weaknesses. The total damage from an individual attack is a "packet" bundling the different instances (type) together.

Also, there's no mention of "instance" in the doubling damage text, that I see.

doubling and halving damages, CRB p.451 wrote:
Sometimes you’ll need to halve or double an amount of damage, such as when the outcome of your Strike is a critical hit, or when you succeed at a basic Reflex save against a spell. When this happens, you roll the damage normally, adding all the normal modifiers, bonuses, and penalties. Then you double or halve the amount as appropriate (rounding down if you halved it). The GM might allow you to roll the dice twice and double the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties instead of doubling the entire result, but this usually works best for single-target attacks or spells at low levels when you have a small number of damage dice to roll. Benefits you gain specifically from a critical hit, like the flaming weapon rune’s persistent fire damage or the extra damage die from the fatal weapon trait, aren’t doubled.


Elfteiroh wrote:
shroudb wrote:
HammerJack wrote:

I dont think you're reading that right.

If a creature has weakness 5 Silver and weakness 3 slashing, then a silver battleaxe dealing 7 slashing damage would only trigger the weakness 5 silver, as the highest weakness that applies to that 7 damage.

Slashing damage and fire damage from the same attack could still trigger both weakness to slashing and weakness to fire, though.

why?

isn't it all still 1 attack doing the damage?

i mean, in the actual Steps of how to resolve an attack, you add the Additional damage in the whole process, and then at the end you subtract from the target in the final step.

If we don't count Additional damage as part of the same damage instance, then stuff like critical multiplying it wouldn't happen, since that part is also on that "damage instance" and we KNOW that this is wrong and you do multiply them as well.

So Additional damage, is clearly part of the same damage instance.

It has been confirmed by a designer that the intent is that an "instance" is each bundle of damage type, except those that "augment" another one, like special materials that augment the physical damages of weapons, but not the damage from property runes.

part of the last quote you ommitted wrote:
This usually happens only when a monster is weak to both a type of physical damage and a given material.

This quote actually tells you that each "damage type" is a different instance, and that "material + physical damage" is the most common exception. Other exceptions should be defined in the effect dealing the damage.

same page as your quotes wrote:
It’s possible to have resistance to all damage. When an effect deals damage of multiple types and you have resistance to all damage, apply the resistance to each type of damage separately. If an attack would deal 7 slashing damage and 4 fire damage, resistance 5 to all damage would reduce the slashing damage to 2 and negate the fire damage entirely.
This actually also...

i already said that resistance to All is different because it says so.

as for the designer quote, i would love to see that. That indeed would change my view (and it would also need to be errata'ed in at some point as well).

lastly, as you pointed out in the doubling rules:
"damage" is not seperated into instances at all. It's all bundled together. So i don't know where you see (in the rules) anything about "seperate instances of damage"

the only thing is see is:
a)damage is calculated together (as you pointed out in the doubling rules)
b)and that each time you do damage apply only the highest resistance/weakness (often seen when something has 2 weaknesses like weakness to slashing and weakness to material), except in the specified case of "resist all".

again, if you have any sort of rules that sayu that you seperate the damage of an attack to multiple different instances, i would love to see that.

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

These two sentences together imply it, as I already said.

Weaknesses, CRB p.453 wrote:
If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value. This usually happens only when a monster is weak to both a type of physical damage and a given material.

(Emphasis mine)

I'll be looking later for a quotable for the comment.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Agyra Eisenherz wrote:
Mark Seifter, please explain it to me like I am 5 years old. How do resistance and weakness work against a weapon which deals multiple types of damage (like a weapon with cold iron, fire, good, and another good damage point from the paladin)?

Let's say you attacked for 20 slashing damage on the dice plus your Strength (with a cold iron weapon, but the damage type is slashing), with a conditional bonus from your bard giving you 1 more damage, 21 slashing damage. You also have 3 fire damage from flaming, and 4 good damage from holy with an extra good damage from the paladin, so 5 good damage.

You are fighting a demon with weakness 10 cold iron, fire, and good.

You deal 31 slashing damage (21 + 10 weakness), 13 fire damage (3 + 10 weakness), and 15 good damage (5 + 10 weakness).

The reverse would be true if the creature had resistance to all damage. Incidentally, this makes the cleric domain power that creates an aura with a small amount of resist all for you and all your allies extremely good against attacks with multiple damage types. You can see Erik Keith's goblin paladin use it to great advantage in the youtube video where I ran a group through The Mirrored Moon, and several enemies dealt multiple types of damage.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
shroudb wrote:

lastly, as you pointed out in the doubling rules:

"damage" is not seperated into instances at all. It's all bundled together. So i don't know where you see (in the rules) anything about "seperate instances of damage"

I'm not sure this is true though. An attack will do 7 slashing damage and 3 fire damage, not 10 "slashing and fire" damage. You never see the game combine different damage types together, except when noting what counts as a special material.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Fire damage, physical (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning/bleed) damage, etc. damage, are all 'instances' of damage for handling weaknesses/resistances/immunities.

If they weren't, a flaming sword would deal no damage to a fire giant even though most of the damage comes from the sword being swung and not the flames.


thewastedwalrus wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Agyra Eisenherz wrote:
Mark Seifter, please explain it to me like I am 5 years old. How do resistance and weakness work against a weapon which deals multiple types of damage (like a weapon with cold iron, fire, good, and another good damage point from the paladin)?

Let's say you attacked for 20 slashing damage on the dice plus your Strength (with a cold iron weapon, but the damage type is slashing), with a conditional bonus from your bard giving you 1 more damage, 21 slashing damage. You also have 3 fire damage from flaming, and 4 good damage from holy with an extra good damage from the paladin, so 5 good damage.

You are fighting a demon with weakness 10 cold iron, fire, and good.

You deal 31 slashing damage (21 + 10 weakness), 13 fire damage (3 + 10 weakness), and 15 good damage (5 + 10 weakness).

The reverse would be true if the creature had resistance to all damage. Incidentally, this makes the cleric domain power that creates an aura with a small amount of resist all for you and all your allies extremely good against attacks with multiple damage types. You can see Erik Keith's goblin paladin use it to great advantage in the youtube video where I ran a group through The Mirrored Moon, and several enemies dealt multiple types of damage.

Ty, that was what I was searching for an answer.

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