duped sharding weapons


Rules Questions


so, I'm running a game where the players play themselves playing pathfinder as an mmorpg full immersion game (think SAO but following pathfinder;s rules, and they CAN log out).
it called for some house rules (if they die they are just forced out and restricted from entering back for a day, the npc assum they got resurrected etc). and one of the things i do is that to simulate an online gaming experience. if the players (or gaming npc, as not all npc are mobs form the game. some are so called 'actual earth player) find a loophole they can exploit. i allow it as long as it's not something known to the public (in which case the dev's tend to patch\nerf it on the next update patch).

so far we have a few exploits found and some nerefed. and im looking at one more to see if it would work.
to be clear, the game work as raw as possible but any faq or revision the real paizo published is considered already patched. as well as well known raw problems even those not answered officially (like the so called peasant rail gun etc)

after all this wall of text let's get to the exploit at hand:
a weapon with the sharding ability say the following:
"...The weapon splits off a duplicate of itself that flies ...The duplicate vanishes after hitting or missing its target."

which bring into mind that if a weapon duplicate never hit OR miss the target it stay and doesn't vanish (weapon is considered to still be on route to the target i guess).

now first i thought about deflect arrows feat and chain. but that doesn't cut it as it call out to only work on an attack that hits. meaning it won't proc without a hit and that is also what make the weapon vanish.
but the 'cut from the air' feat works a bit differently.
as it is usable the moment an attack is declared, but doesn't need to wait for it to hit, not does it state that the attack is considered a miss if the deflection work.

weapons duped like this will most likely still disappear after any attack is made with them that hit or miss. but the vendor npc won't know any better...

what do you guys think?
also if you have any good ideas for exploits that are not well known, feel free to add them.

edit:
if the above works as planed then getting a glove of improvised might (+1 & sharding, total +3) would allow to dupe anything that can be wielded as an improvised weapon.

-and since you want cut from the air to work, if you don't have throw anything then you take -4 to hit for using an improvised weapon and can even take -4 more to try and deal nonlethal. then stand next to an ally and attack it so this make it also shooting into melee -4 more, -12 to the roll that cut from the air need to defeat...(before lower bab extra attacks are even talked about)


The duplicate would still disappear if and when it was ever used to attack something, wouldn’t it?


Lelomenia wrote:
The duplicate would still disappear if and when it was ever used to attack something, wouldn’t it?

yes but as i mentioned you can still sell it to the shopkeeper.

also see edit. duping a magic item that is not meant to be used to attack can be very nice (wands for example, magical helmets etc)

Dark Archive

So the duplicate can only be made by makings an attack roll.

No attack roll no dupe.

Attack rolls either hit or miss. There is no limbo of its made but not in the process of being used

The wielder of a sharding weapon can make a special ranged attack with the weapon...
The duplicate vanishes after hitting or missing its target.

So there should be no shenanigans to be had.

You attack to make it.

Deflect arrows and cut from the air both cause misses, no problem there either.

Snatch arrows gets weird because technically it couldn't be throw back at the person


While Cut from the Air doesn't say the attack misses when deflected, it also doesn't say that the attack doesn't hit, just that the target takes no damage.

In a sane world, deflecting the attack means a miss and thus the sharded weapon disappears. In a pedantic world, it still hits the target when deflected (just dealing no damage), and thus the sharded weapon disappears. Either way, the duplicate disappears.


willuwontu wrote:

While Cut from the Air doesn't say the attack misses when deflected, it also doesn't say that the attack doesn't hit, just that the target takes no damage.

In a sane world, deflecting the attack means a miss and thus the sharded weapon disappears. In a pedantic world, it still hits the target when deflected (just dealing no damage), and thus the sharded weapon disappears. Either way, the duplicate disappears.

from the OP, it sounds like the question is less ‘how should this be adjudicated in best accordance with official or practical rules’ and more ‘here’s an example where a sleep-deprived programmer might program something exploitable if they were just scripting the rules language straight in and not beta testing adequately; what other examples of this are you aware of?’


Lelomenia wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

While Cut from the Air doesn't say the attack misses when deflected, it also doesn't say that the attack doesn't hit, just that the target takes no damage.

In a sane world, deflecting the attack means a miss and thus the sharded weapon disappears. In a pedantic world, it still hits the target when deflected (just dealing no damage), and thus the sharded weapon disappears. Either way, the duplicate disappears.

from the OP, it sounds like the question is less ‘how should this be adjudicated in best accordance with official or practical rules’ and more ‘here’s an example where a sleep-deprived programmer might program something exploitable if they were just scripting the rules language straight in and not beta testing adequately; what other examples of this are you aware of?’

exactly hence it's an exploit that once it becomes well known would get nurfed by the devs. the point is until then the party would have to deal with a guild who somehow have a LOT of cash and resources. one way for them to win (or at least strike a blow for their side) is to find exactly how this exploit works and report it


To that extent, the old “just cast Fabricate” exploit works, where you use one round and 1/3 the item cost in materials to make something really expensive (Adamantium Full Plate) and sell it two seconds later for 1/2 item cost, for $3000 gp or whatever profit per round.

Dark Archive

Again, the weapon only exists in the time between a rolled attack and damage resolution.

You can't just shake a sharding weapon and rain weapons.

It comes into existence by making an attack roll. No other means.

It disappears after the attack resolves.

Anything else is just homebrew and a headache


Name Violation wrote:

Again, the weapon only exists in the time between a rolled attack and damage resolution.

You can't just shake a sharding weapon and rain weapons.

It comes into existence by making an attack roll. No other means.

It disappears after the attack resolves.

Anything else is just homebrew and a headache

no. it disappears when the attack 'hit' or 'miss'. if you can prevent it from hitting or missing it doesn't disappear. in comes 'cut from the air' that happen before the weapon 'hit' (unlike deflect arrows) and doesn't make the weapon 'miss'. it gain a 3rd position of 'deflected'

(again this is if we go by raw alone like a machine. as this specific game theme is such - a machine governed game. rai of course the weapon should vanish)


so

i only found this faq a few days ago, it actually make it easier for duping items with the glove of improvised might (+1 & sharding, total +3) to work and even make it RAI (for the feat's rai, maybe not the sharding :), back then i thought deflect won't work since it call the attack hitting before the feat is used, but the faq call out that:
"If the attack is deflected, not only does the target take no damage, but any other effects (ability drain, negative levels, harmful conditions, and so on) associated with that attack do not occur"
-a deflected sharded item won't disappear because it 'hit' anymore then the deflected charged spell that 'hit' didn't discharge.
and it specifically call out that the attack doesn't proc any effect that work on a 'miss' :
"Because it is not a miss, effects that would trigger on a miss (such as Efreeti Style or Snake Fang from Ultimate Combat) are not triggered."

back then i could only relay on cut from the air which is not easy to get if you are not a fighter. deflect arrows is something any 1st level monk (or human) can get.

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