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Pathfinder elves sleep eight hours by default. I heard there was some other stuff in a supplement but that it was considered setting-specific.
Personally though, I find pretty much everyone who came from 3.5 or earlier and wants to play an elf likes the 4 hour reverie/trace stuff, so I usually just let them have it and say they still need eight hours "rest" for all the usual things because it almost never matters otherwise. Keep Watch is a first level spell anyway.
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Did Dragonlance elves sleep? I recall the 2e elf handbook was where they introduced the reverie and that seemed to be setting-agnostic.
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I believe James Jacobs once clarified Elves sleep in Golarion, but I don't know that I could track down that post.
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Trance. Elves trance. Always have, and always will.
Variel, was from Kyonin, and he brought up to the group that there are no beds where he is from. The party asked him where little elves are traditionally "made". Lol.
It's funny to me that Angelwiings mentioned the lack of beds in Kyonin. We are on the same page in this regard.
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Elves don't sleep, they Trance, because Trancing is cooler than sleeping. I don't have the paperwork to back that up.
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So my group has had this point of contention for months now, and with my work on converting second darkness to pathfinder rules I want to find a definitive ruling once and for all.
My own research has lead me to no answers so I'm asking here. Both the Elves of Gallorian, and the Second Darkness book mention elves do not sleep, rather trance for 4 hours. However those were both made in 3.5 rules, and the elf race mentions no such thing. So my question is how do they sleep? 8 hour trance? 4 hour? Normal sleep? As it stands old lore says they trance, no new lore I know of has rebutted this, but the rules mention no such ability and it has me mad confused.Please help
Please, and thanks in advance
~AW
As you point out, those books use 3.5 rules, where Elves in their racial write up Tranced instead of Sleeping.
They have no such write up in P1. If something has something that far outside the norm it would be called out.
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Did Dragonlance elves sleep? I recall the 2e elf handbook was where they introduced the reverie and that seemed to be setting-agnostic.Biggest issue I have is the plot holes without having a trance. The biggest one being there is not a single bed in all of Kyonin. Ultimately it's not a huge deal, but the fact there's an entire AP with them doing trancing makes me lean towards that to be honest.
As a follow up, again, those books use 3.5 rules where elves did Trance. If you’re running using Pathfinder rules just put in beds, since they don’t Trance.
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To clarify for Anglewings original post, those products you refer to we written for the 3.5 system. In 3.5 elves did trance, and Paizo elected not to change it when they wrote those materials.
Since Pathfinder became it's own independent system, and not just a setting, I believe the cannon answer is that elves sleep.
Of course, they didn't go back and rewrite those early materials so it's still out there, erroneously.
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Did Dragonlance elves sleep? I recall the 2e elf handbook was where they introduced the reverie and that seemed to be setting-agnostic.The Complete Book of Elves is setting-agnostic, hence overruled by setting specific. The book was a bit contentious, and much/most of it doesn't work for certain elves, e.g. Dark Sun elves. CBoE did take DL into account in some respects, but not all. For instance it gives a creation myth for all elves which is incompatible with DL, Mystara and DS.
As far as trance vs. sleeping, no mention is made of reverie/trance in the DL sources I checked, and 3.x DL have trance only by default.
I didn't realise there was setting-specific stuff saying Dragonlance elves sleep, is what I meant. It seems like such a strange thing to get explicit about.
Anyway yeah, I agree with what you're saying about setting-specific vs general.
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https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43bon?Elf-Aging-change#3
James actually re-clarified this just the other day (bottom of the post, but the rest is also clarifying that Golarion elves also don't wait till 100 to be mature)
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...Further, for an ancestry that's supposed to be close enough to human to be a "core" ancestry, someone who spends a century as a child is a bit too alien to my tastes.
This made me chuckle a bit. A species of aliens to Golarion (Elves) that spends a century as a child is "too alien". Yes, Elves are LITERALLY aliens, though they've been around long enough on the planet that few know of it outside of the Elves.
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80 years of being a dumb teen would explain why elves are generally fewer in number than humans.
Absolutely.
Their parents got tired of their s!+* and sent them on an adventure, never to be heard from again.
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80 years of being a dumb teen would explain why elves are generally fewer in number than humans.Absolutely.
Their parents got tired of their s$&$ and sent them on an adventure, never to be heard from again.
I don't know what Bjørn envisioned, but suddenly I'm thinking about an elf teen saying "hey guys watch this" before skating down a steep mountainside on a magic disc, or trying to ride a rust monster to impress a huldra or lampard...
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No one likes a pedant, there's different uses for the word alien.
Elves were extraterrestrial awhile back but have been living on Golarion for awhile, and certainly aren't alien in mindset or play.
Origins are important and a few millennia of living on Golarion is not going to change a great deal of Elven civilization from races so long lived, unless they are some of the more wild elves that went their own way and were cut off from the wider Elven culture. For those that dig deep enough into the Elven lore, the 'High' elves are still in contact with their 'alien' ancestors and travel between Golarion and their home world is still ongoing, if not too frequent.
People tend to treat the worldview of long-lived races too similar to that of humans without giving much credit to how much that would actually change things. Being a 'child' stops being a matter of physical age and more about mental maturity and an overview of life in general. Sure, the Elves might physically mature beyond the helplessness of a toddler or small child about the same rate as a human, but to be considered an adult in Elven society is a long process. It might help some people to take some cues from the Asari race in Mass Effect.
Maybe that doesn't matter in your game. Personally, I find the concepts fascinating and like to explore them.
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I don't know what Bjørn envisioned, but suddenly I'm thinking about an elf teen saying "hey guys watch this" before skating down a steep mountainside on a magic disc, or trying to ride a rust monster to impress a huldra or lampard...80 years of being a dumb teen would explain why elves are generally fewer in number than humans.Absolutely.
Their parents got tired of their s$&$ and sent them on an adventure, never to be heard from again.
I'm sure that's more likely.
But I prefer envision elf parents getting fed up with teen snarkiness after about 2 decades and sending them to an early death.
Heck, for human parents they get fed up after 5-10 years (of teenage behavior) and yeet their offspring out of their house (whether to college or elsewhere) lest they kill them.
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It matters not whether an elf sleeps or trances, or when an elf leaves their parents' home, all will be Consumed by Undeath, and the living shall fall before the Might of the Swarm.
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It matters not whether an elf sleeps or trances, or when an elf leaves their parents' home, all will be Consumed by Undeath, and the living shall fall before the Might of the Swarm.
I hope you aren't going to make a habit of this.
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It matters not whether an elf sleeps or trances, or when an elf leaves their parents' home, all will be Consumed by Undeath, and the living shall fall before the Might of the Swarm.I hope you aren't going to make a habit of this.
I was raised by the Thread Necromancers' Guild for one purpose and one purpose alone: to fulfill my Oath to spread the Might of Undeath. My Oath to Undeath never expires.
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Origins are important and a few millennia of living on Golarion is not going to change a great deal of Elven civilization from races so long lived,.No one likes a pedant, there's different uses for the word alien.
Elves were extraterrestrial awhile back but have been living on Golarion for awhile, and certainly aren't alien in mindset or play.
That’s an assumption you are having.
I hear tell dat the whole trancin' stuff was not made part of the OGL, so's Paizo and other companies can't use them without some kinda special license/dispensation from WOTC.
That being said, dat makes me wonder where the whole Elves trance thing in D&D came from? Wuzzit something from Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms [or mebbe even a wholly original thing for 3.x?]?
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PF1e elves are immune to magic sleep, which is the last (crunch) legacy of not sleeping. I can't immediately see any trace of that in 2e on AoN, so maybe it's gone.
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I was raised by the Thread Necromancers' Guild for one purpose and one purpose alone: to fulfill my Oath to spread the Might of Undeath. My Oath to Undeath never expires.It matters not whether an elf sleeps or trances, or when an elf leaves their parents' home, all will be Consumed by Undeath, and the living shall fall before the Might of the Swarm.I hope you aren't going to make a habit of this.
Also, undead don't need to eat, sleep, or breathe. We can do some combination of those things if we want.
+1 point Slytherin
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PF1e started as 3.5 and evolved into its own thing as we know, in terms of APs. Second Darkness was written under 3.5 rules and later changed.
Canonically elves sleep in PF1e and Golarion, but I have nothing against the idea that at home tables you can have them trance. I'd still have them trance 4 hours and rest (awake) 4 hours unless there's a pressing reason to give elves an extra 4 hours/day.
The real question is:
- Do Elves dream of pointy-eared sheep?
I was going to make that exact joke, bless you!