Whats the strength and weaknesses of the full arcane casters (And psychic)?


Advice

1 to 50 of 67 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

So... I'v only ever played a single full caster, That being my very first character who was a cleric, And I had no idea what I was doing back then... But now I'v played for a few years and I'm considering taking the plunge and trying a full arcane caster (Or the psychic) But I dont know much about them...

So I wanted to ask here, What are the strengths and weaknesses of these 5 classes? (Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch, Arcanist and Psychic) and which one would you recomend for someone who never truly played a full caster before? (My cleric was built for melee, And I did not know what I was doing.. xD)

Edit: Oh! And if anyone could give me some tips for playing a full caster that would be nice too!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Arcanist good - best of both worlds casting mechanics, exploits are strong. Good archetypes for specific builds
Arcanist bad - few slots + delayed casting. Not that much content to support

Sorcerer good - spontaneous casting is user friendly; bloodlines are good for optimizing toward any particular build
Sorcerer bad - few spells accessible (especially early), delayed spellcasting. Cha is probably the worst stat to be SAD in

Witch good - hexes give strong options in combat all day long. I would definitely say witch is the strongest at lower levels. barring 15 minute adventuring days.
Witch bad - lot of key arcane spells not on witch list

Wizard good - best class with prepared spells from slots. Strong with skills
Wizard bad - can do very little without spending limited slots. And prepared casting can be frustrating in combat when spells are always plan A.

Psychic bad - spell list and other class features


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'd go for sorcerer, since you only have to deal with a limited amount of spells known, and the powers beyond spells (here: bloodline powers) are easy to understand and use. Most bloodlines have a clear focus (or two) as guidance what to do in combat and what outside of it.

Spells known

The critical point for a sorcerer is to choose spells known wisely. Cantrips are mostly utility, but starting at spell level 1 you probably want a good mix of attack, buff, protection and utility spells:

Attack: Directly engage during combat, for example Shocking Grasp (risky but strong melee touch attack), try to pick different spells with different ranges and damage types

Buff: Help to prepare encounters, for example Enlarge Person (to make the group's barbarian even more bad***)

Protection: Protect your fragile backside or a fragile ally, for example Mage Armor (precious +4 AC for yourself or the group's monk)

Utility: Contribute outside battle, for example Identify (knowing a magical item's properties immediately is more interesting and you don't have to rely on a shopkeeper's presence and honesty)

Keep in mind a good share of your spells comes from the bloodline, so plan around them. Further always consider trading away spells (often outdated attack for still relevant utility), starting at level 4. Finally there is the (overly) powerful human FCB for more spells known, but IMO you can be fine without it.

Behavior in combat

At level 1 you can actually be at the frontline and survive. Don't get used to it, though, next levels such behavior will become increasingly dangerous - unless you spend precious spell slots on protecting yourself. +4 AC is good, total concealment or Mirror Image are better (but show synergy with AC increases). It's actually easier to stay behind in the artillery role, though you still might attract the odd arrow or a melee creature breaking through.

5-foot step away from melee engagement to cast afterwards is a standard tactic, but sometimes you might have to cast defensively, Combat Casting helps a lot here. Keep in mind melee touch spells can be cast far away from the target - you can walk up to them and touch them as a free action. Or cast the spell hours before and attack as a standard action - though it gets lost when you cast something else.


Thank you both for the replies! Full arcane casters feel a bit intimidating but I'v seen them in action a few times and they seem quite impressive.

It does seem like Sorcerer might be the easiest, Though Arcanist and Witch both seem intresting.. Arcanist due to being able to cast like a sorcerer from prepared spells, And Witch due to having hexes to help out..


3 people marked this as a favorite.

A properly prepared wizard is probably the strongest class in the game. On the other hand a wizard who chooses the wrong spells for the occasion can be next to useless.. This means there is a lot of work involved in playing a wizard. First of all you have to be able to figure out what is going to be going on in order to properly prepare. At the same time you need to be able to plan for contingencies you did not expect. Second you need to be very familiar with a large number of spells. You need understand how every spell works not only to use them, but also to plan out your spell selection. You have very few class abilities besides spells so that means you need to use them efficiently. Don’t play a wizard unless you as a player are very good and analyzing and planning.

A sorcerer can cast any spell he knows so does not have to plan out his spell selection on a daily basis. But since they have a limited number of spells known choosing the spells they know is absolutely crucial. A wizard who memorized the wrong spells can fix the mistake the next day. A sorcerer who choose the wrong spells has very little they can do to correct the situation. The spells you choose need to be as versatile as possible. This often means that your spells may be less powerful than the wizards. Overall your power level is on par with the wizard. Most of the time your spell selection will not be as optimized, but you will usually have something that gets the job done. You have more class abilities than a wizard, but spell still remain your primary power. One big advantage you have is that you are a CHA based class with UMD as a class skill. This means you can use magic items of other classes. Using wands, staffs and scrolls of other classes allows you to go beyond your own spell list.

Arcanists being a combination of wizard and sorcerer have advantages of both. You have the wizard’s ability to know an unlimited number of spells, but have flexibility of a sorcerer. Like the sorcerer you are a level behind the wizard gaining new spell levels. Like the wizard you get fewer spells per day than the sorcerer. You have more class abilities than either the wizard or the sorcerer, and those abilities are more customizable than the other classes. The biggest drawback of the arcanists is they need both INT and CHA. INT is going to be your primary stat, but a lot of your class abilities are CHA based. Like all characters you need CON and DEX for survival so this makes the arcanist somewhat of a MAD class. If you are using a low point buy this can be a concern.

Witches are prepared casters so they are similar to wizards, but their spell list is different. Witches have very few direct combat spells. They get a lot of mind affecting spells which usually works well except vs creatures that are not affected by mind affecting spells like undead. Unlike wizards witches have other options besides spells to fall back on. Hexes can be used all day long even if a particular hex can only be used once per day on the same creature. Their spell list if very different from other arcane casters and includes many spells normally found on divine casters spell list. They also get very few defensive spells so that can be a problem. I would really advise anyone playing a witch to look over the spell list before choosing this class.

I would probably recommend against a wizard for a first full arcane caster. If you have a decent amount of system mastery an arcanist could work. Having more spells know means you need to be familiar with them to choose the appropriate spell. The sorcerer is generally more forgiving so is often easier for a newer player.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

In general:

The good: Full casting is by far the most powerful class feature in the game. You can dominate combats, and have answers to all kind of encounters, but the biggest power lies in what you can do beyond simple fighting. Spells can solve everything, and many spells have creative uses that allow you to shape the entire game.

The bad: You only have what you chose to have. A martial with bad options chosen still has the ability to to something by just attacking, an arcane/psychic full caster relies on spells or other selections for virtually everything - including defense.

The ugly: Full casters are designed around the freedom of vancian casting. Whereas almost everything in the game has some sort of cost system, spells don't have any prerequisites etc., you're expected to spread out your spell selection. A scheme for offensive spell selection is fine, but one should never pick the majority or even all their spells based on flavor. You shouldn't pick only fire spells because you want to play some dragon themed character, or only spells with the cold descriptor because you've seen Frozen one too many times, or only mind-affecting spells because you want to build Professor X. This does not mean you have to have less flavor than a martial, only that a martial forces you to have non-flavor-options, whereas a caster doesn't.

Overall, you have to accept that a caster is different from a martial. Most importantly, don't let yourself get pideon-holed. Full casters are all about having large toolboxes, which include non-combat options. You don't need a three-rage-power-chain to get flight, you just pick up a spell. Don't be averse to having "odd spells out" - just because you don't have any party buffs in your spellbook now doesn't means you can't or shouldn't select one. Don't expect to do the same thing every level or even every encounter. Doing three totally different things during one encounter is totally normal (say, a buff spell, a debuff spell, and a damage spell). Combat is more dynamic for a caster than for a martial, as you have to adapt to the enemy more (not just because you may have to, but because you actually have the ability to do so).
Oh, and just because you may not be topping the damage meter (although you could!) doesn't mean you aren't the most dominant/impactful party member.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

To expand on the "different": You also use items in a different way. Magical weapons and armor usually lose their importance, but the headband for your mental stat(s) becomes even more important than a martial's belt. The usual AC boosts from the remaining Big 6 (amulet of natural armor, ring of protection) lose some relevance, but you likely still want them.

You can patch up both a lack of spells per day and a lack of spells known indirectly with scrolls, wands and staves. Or directly with pearls of power respective pages of spell knowledge and the like. Metamagic rods can be helpful. And, depending on the campaign and GM, you might get to craft some items for the party and yourself, maybe even custom ones.


research the God Wizard Build (i.e. the Buff Wizard). IMO it's by far one of the most powerful builds in the game.


Thank you all for the great replies! I must admit that full arcane casters intimidate me and I almost think I should stick to Divine casters, 6th level casters, and martials as I love those...

But I still want to dip my toe into the arcane waters and manage to try a full arcane sometime.. Sorcerer seems the easiest, But Arcanist and Witch also seem quite interesting.. The Witch seems good for debuffing enemies, Which can also be quite good! And the Arcanist seems like you could early on play it a bit like a sorcerer, Then as you get more secure and better at playing it start expanding a bit like a wizard..


2 people marked this as a favorite.

How about you try a Ley Line Guardian Witch? You can have all the important Witch features like spells and hexes, but your spellcasting is like that of a Sorcerer, and your patron spells can give you a basic theme.


The biggest weakness is that casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity... and there is no option to completely negate this.

Given their lack of armor proficencies and low HPs, getting AoO'ed can be fatal.

The other weakness is the lack of back-up spells. You know how the cantrips scale in power in P2E and D&D5E? THAT would have been useful in P1E. Spells can be as pretty powerful and pretty weak depending on your rolls, you can literally run out of spells.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

While full arcane casters don’t use magic weapons or armor, magic items are still very important to them. Spell Completion and Spell Trigger items are crucial for arcane casters. Spell Trigger items allow the caster to cast more than their daily allotted spell. Spell completion items expand what magic you have access to. Using these types of items is crucial to an effective arcane caster.

Wizards normally start out with scribe scroll this allows them to create their own scrolls. A smart thing to do is to create scrolls of situationally useful non-combat spells. Since a wizard can only cast a spell he memorizes using spell slots for spells you probably are not going to cast is a waste. This allows a wizard to create kind of a spell bank. Sorcerers do not get scribe scroll for free and it is not really a useful feat for them considering their lack of spells known. But scrolls are still important to them. Scrolls flat out expand what a sorcerer can cast. If the game requires a certain spell scrolls allow the sorcerer to cast that spell. Since sorcerers get UMD as a class skill they can often use any scroll, not just those on their spell list. Arcanists don’t get scribe scroll, but unlike a sorcerer it may be worthwhile for them to pick it up.

Wands are the bread and butter of an arcane caster. The big difference between a martial class and a full caster is how they contribute to combat. The martial class contributes to combat by attack the enemy. For the most part they contribute the same thing round after round. Full casters on the other hand contribute to combat by changing the situation. This usually means they have one big contribution and after that they drop off. Wand can allow them to boost their lesser efforts up to something a little more substantial. A low level or moderate level wand can allows them to deal enough damage that they don’t feel useless. If they are playing cleanup wands allows them to do this without wasting a spell slot. If the BBG is down to a few HP an arcane caster with a wand of magic missile is often enough to take him down. All the caster has to do is to wait for the others to take the BBG down low enough that he can be taken out. This is a tactic I rarely see being used, but can really keep the party alive.

Of all magic items for a full arcane caster Staves are the most powerful. Having a good staff can be the difference between a mediocre character and a truly effective character. For a sorcerer it can give you regular access to spells you don’t know. For Wizard it is more about freeing up spell slots for other spells, but having a good staff still gives you more options. Staves are extremely expensive, but well worth the cost. If you are playing a full arcane caster make getting a good staff a high priority.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

JiCi wrote:
The biggest weakness is that casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity... and there is no option to completely negate this.

Well, except for Concentration checks, 5'-stepping, and spells without somatic components! Hmm, looks like you've got several options, then :)

Quote:
Spells can be as pretty powerful and pretty weak depending on your rolls, you can literally run out of spells.

A well-played caster doesn't run out of spells.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lelomenia wrote:
Psychic bad - spell list and other class features

Incorrect. Have you read the class?

Firstly, they're an INT based spontaneous caster. Yes, well aware of Sage-blooded sorcerer.

The Psychic spell list includes some pretty darn fantastic psychic spells plus a lot of the go-to arcane spells. Are some of them poorly written? Yeah, that's OA for you. Are some of them actually really broken? Yeah, that's OA for you.

In terms of class features, there's actually quite few very potent amplifications and synergistic disciplines.

Are they the best caster? No. Obviously not. Are they a competent spellcaster on par with a sorcerer? Absolutely.


TxSam88 wrote:
research the God Wizard Build (i.e. the Buff Wizard). IMO it's by far one of the most powerful builds in the game.

Having built and played several "god wizards", from levels 1-15+ I can say the hype is overrated. It's pure theorycraft, presuming perfect intelligence and no surprises. I find that the actual implementation of the class requires more. Metagaming than is appropriate at most tables.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just to throw out a slightly differing viewpoint; depending on the mechanical proficiency and preferred playstyles of you and your group, a themed caster is not the worst thing in the world.

One thing I particularly enjoy about full casters, is the abilility to make a character where (nearly) every choice can fit into a theme, be it elemental, arcane school, philosophy, or something more esoteric.

With such a character, you are usually sacrificing some optimization; but, you can enjoy a more specifically flavored build. It's also fun to hunt for spells that fit your theme and allow you to access features or utility most wouldn't normally associate with your theme. For instance, the all fire caster, doesn't just have to be about burning things up. When you encounter the fire immune beasties, you can fall back on clouds of concealing smoke, trails of lava or obsidian to make difficult terrain, or certain fire flavored light spells to dazzle, blind, or otherwise distract. It all depends on how you view the theme.

When all else fails, then you can fall back on a crossbow, or hopefully your various magic items others have so wisely recommended. The character may end up being a bit more swingy; but, embracing the power AND the limitations of a themed caster can help to limit the OP nature of full casters (if that's a concern) while still enjoying those times when you're the exactly right/best person for the job.

Balance in all things. You just need to decide what will bring you the most satisfaction from this foray into the full caster. Do you want/need to be powerful/optimal, or is it the flavor you're after?


Artofregicide wrote:
Are they the best caster? No. Obviously not. Are they a competent spellcaster on par with a sorcerer? Absolutely.

IMO psychic has a reputation problem because it's rarely played - so few people publicly acknowledge its strengths. It's relatively easy to spot shortcomings in comparison to sorcerer (primarily lacking of some spells), but it's tougher to notice what the psychic gets in return.

The disciplines can keep up with bloodline powers - while it looks like only 3 or 4 powers, all psychics gain some SLAs and a decent capstone on top of them. Getting the bonus spells right when you enter the new spell level doesn't hurt either.

The class has potential that is barely tapped: Put psychics into full-plate (a single martial level suffices), make them force punch the crap out of enemies (focused force amplification), control both the living and dead with the enchantment school, no necromancy required (will of the dead amplification) etc. etc..


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kurald Galain wrote:
JiCi wrote:
The biggest weakness is that casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity... and there is no option to completely negate this.
Well, except for Concentration checks, 5'-stepping, and spells without somatic components! Hmm, looks like you've got several options, then :)

Last time I checked (a few minutes ago), not needing somatic components to cast a spell doesn't let you off the hook for getting AoO'd for it, if you do it in an enemy's threatened zone.

Kurald Galain wrote:
Quote:
Spells can be as pretty powerful and pretty weak depending on your rolls, you can literally run out of spells.
A well-played caster doesn't run out of spells.

That depends upon how long your adventuring day is and how much access you have to spellcasting items (Wands, Staves, Pearls of Power, etc.). Also, with pure prepared casters, you can run out of a certain spell you need long before you run out of total spells (just how long this takes again depends upon how much access you have to spellcasting items).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:
JiCi wrote:
The biggest weakness is that casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity... and there is no option to completely negate this.
Well, except for Concentration checks, 5'-stepping, and spells without somatic components! Hmm, looks like you've got several options, then :)
Last time I checked (a few minutes ago), not needing somatic components to cast a spell doesn't let you off the hook for getting AoO'd for it, if you do it in an enemy's threatened zone.

True. Try quickened spells instead.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

There are a couple of ways to completely avoid provoking an AoO when casting a spell. Casting a quickened spell or a spell that does only requires a free action do not provoke an AoO. Having a high enough concentration roll will prevent AoO. Concentration rolls unlike attack rolls or saving throws do not auto fail on a 1. Therefore one you have a high enough bonus you always make the roll. If you max out your casting stat and take combat casting you will be fine for your lower level spells. You can also take a trait like focused mind to get an additional +2, and if you play an elf you can trade out the elven weapon familiarity for another +2 bonus.

All classes can run out of resources and no longer be able to effective in combat. Even a fighter can run out of HP.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Now that I have a bit more time:

General: If you haven't already, see class guides on the Guide to the Guides (for 1st Edition).

Lelomenia wrote:

Arcanist good - best of both worlds casting mechanics, exploits are strong. Good archetypes for specific builds

Arcanist bad - few slots + delayed casting. Not that much content to support

Some specifics: Good guides are available for this at the Guide to the Guides link above, but to make a long story short, 2 Exploits that you want to get as soon as you can are Potent Magic to make the boost from using an Arcane Reservoir point to increase your caster level or Save DC twice as good; and Quick Study to reduce the time to swap out a prepared spell down to one round, meaning that in a real emergency, you could even do this in combat as long as you have allies to hold off the enemies (or if you can manage to hide successfully, or get far away enough that they can't get you in just one round, or if the enemy is actually something like a ticking time bomb that isn't going to hit you until it actually goes off), thereby giving you maximum versatility.

Arcanist additional bad: Consume Spells (1st level class feature to get more Arcane Reservoir points) and some Arcanist Exploits require Charisma, which will make you MAD.

Arcanist additional good: Since you are spontaneously using spell slots to power prepared spells rather than truly casting spells spontaneously, you have no spontaneous spellcasting penalty for using Metamagic feats as long as you prepared your spells with the metamagic feat (if you didn't, then you do take this penalty).

Lelomenia wrote:

Sorcerer good - spontaneous casting is user friendly; bloodlines are good for optimizing toward any particular build

Sorcerer bad - few spells accessible (especially early), delayed spellcasting. Cha is probably the worst stat to be SAD in

Some more specifics: Good but rather outdated guides are available for this at the Guide to the Guides link above.

Sorerer additional bad (and workarounds): Use of metamagic normally increases casting time, which really hurts your action economy. Workarounds exist, but will cost you. If you want to do this often with a variety of spells, the Arcane Bloodline may be for you (the 3rd level ability lets you override this limitation initially once per day, and then more times as you level up). If you need to cast one particular spell frequently with metamagic applied (in which case Versatile Spontaneity -- see below -- won't let you do it often enough), and you don't have the Arcane Bloodline, you can use Spontaneous Metafocus to override this limitation for that particular spell as many times as you can cast it; you can even take this feat more than once to do this for more than one spell, but that quickly gets expensive in feats. The Wildblooded Sage Bloodline, which also makes you Intelligence-based, shares this Bloodline Power at the cost of trading out the excellent Bloodline Arcana (which increases spell DC by 1 when you apply metamagic other than Heighten Spell that raises the level of spell slot that you need to use), but unfortunately also replaces the excellent 1st level Bloodline Power with a lousy bolt, although I think you can still trade the lousy bolt out for a Bloodline Familiar (however, this delays getting ALL of your Bloodline Spells, so that tradeout isn't a no-brainer). Blood Havoc (listed first in Bloodline Mutations is another possibility for tradeout of the lousy bolt -- not as good as a Bloodline Familiar, and it is blasting-specific, but it doesn't delay getting your Bloodline Spells.

Partial mitigation of limited spells known: Be Human or at least Half-Human and use the Favored Class Bonus to gain an additional spell known at each level (must be 1 level lower than the highest level you can cast). Another partial mitigation measure: Expanded Arcana, best used to get extra spells known that are not of the highest level you can cast, so that you get two of them instead of just one. Also see Paragon Surge below if you are a Half-Elf.

In addition, if you can somehow get your hands on a spellbook, you can use Versatile Spontaneity to prepare a spell, although it is bumped up a level without increasing its DC, and must be of at least 1 level lower than the highest level than you can cast; you have the option to prepare it with Metamagic Feats applied (meaning that you don't end up increasing the casting time) -- basically, this is a very weak (but still potentially useful) predecessor to Pathfinder 2nd Edition's Arcane Evolution. You also need to have Intelligence 13 as a prerequisite, but if you are a Sage Sorcerer, you will easily exceed that; if not, you might meet that prerequisite if you invested a moderate amount into Intelligence for the purpose of boosting the lousy skill ranks per level that you will have if you are not a Sage Sorcerer.

Finally, I need to add a bit of cheese. Warning: This is Limburger = Weapons-Grade Cheese. If you are a Half-Elven Sorcerer, Paragon Surge is on your spell list, and it is a Transmutation spell that normally lasts 1 minute per level, and gets you temporary use of a feat that you qualify for. This can be any feat you qualify for, not just a Combat Feat. Meanwhile, the Shapechanger Sorcerer Bloodline 3rd level Bloodline Power extends any Transmutation spell that normally lasts 1 minute per level to 10 minutes per level and later to 1 hour per level. You can use this to gain a Metamagic Feat you don't have; or if you already have Metamagic Feats, you could use it to gain Spontaneous Metafocus; or you could use it to get one or two spells you don't have (provided that they are on your spell list) by way of Expanded Arcana (and if you need to use it to get an extra spell known of the highest level you can cast, you are at worst only shooting yourself in the foot for 1 day instead of the rest of your career); and finally, and starting at 9th level, you can use it to get an Item Crafting Feat that you don't have, and your 3rd level Bloodline Power makes it last long enough for you to do a day's crafting.

Lelomenia wrote:

Witch good - hexes give strong options in combat all day long. I would definitely say witch is the strongest at lower levels. barring 15 minute adventuring days.

Witch bad - lot of key arcane spells not on witch list

Some more specifics: Apparently no good guides are available that are not terribly outdated, except for one specific to the Veneficus Witch archetype. Pay careful attention to your Patron spells and to any replacements to these made by any archetype you take -- your choice of Patron (here in tabular form, and also see Unique Patrons) and archetype can determine whether you can be (for instance) a complete divine caster replacement (Healing Patron, or if you're willing to wait long enough, Endurance Patron, and DON'T pick an archetype that replaces Patron spells that you don't already have on your spell list), a Necromancer (Gravewalker archetype and NOT the Plague Patron, since it duplicates spells replaced by the archetype), or a blaster (Elements Patron, and DON'T pick an archetype that replaces Patron spells that you don't already have on your spell list).

Even more specifics: If you want to be a Witch but with Sorcerer spellcasting using the Ley Line Guardian archetype, it helps to be Human or Half-Human for the Favored Class Bonus (which is a trap option on a normal Witch but very good for a Ley Line Guardian Witch, for the same reason it is very good on a Sorcerer). Another partial mitigation measure for limited spells known: Expanded Arcana, best used to get extra spells known that are not of the highest level you can cast, so that you get two of them instead of just one. If you are also going to be a divine caster replacement as a Ley Line Guardian, you may need to use Expanded Arcana at 9th level to get enough 3rd level spells known, since bad status removal spells are concentrated at 3rd level (same reason you would likely need to take this feat as an Oracle).

Still more specifics: If you want to Channel Energy like a Cleric, the Hex Channeler archetype may be for you, but keep in mind that while you have to trade out Hexes beyond 2nd level to increase the damage dealt or healed, you DON'T have to do this to have your Channel DC keep up with that of a Cleric, so if you are going to use Channel Energy for a rider effect like Command Undead or Turn Undead (or the subset of types of Variant Channeling for which the rider effect doesn't depend upon damage dealt or healed), you only need to trade out your 2nd level Hex for this.

Even more specifics: Despite not having an Intelligence bonus, a Halfling with the Halfling Jinx and Creepy Doll alternate racial traits and some Charisma and Intimidation feat investment (including but not limited to Area Jinx, Jinxed Spell, Malicious Eye) can make an amazing debuffing Witch.

Lelomenia wrote:

Wizard good - best class with prepared spells from slots. Strong with skills

Wizard bad - can do very little without spending limited slots. And prepared casting can be frustrating in combat when spells are always plan A.

Some more specifics: Good but rather outdated guides are available for this at the Guide to the Guides link above, along with some good and fairly up-to-date guides for specific archetypes and for the Transmuter Wizard.

Yet more specifics: If you want to be a Universalist Wizard, the normal Universalist choice of Arcane School isn't the best way to do it unless you are aiming for the Arclord of Nex prestige class or you have some really specific build in mind that actually makes good use of the Hand of the Apprentice 1st level Arcane School Power (which you really have to build around to make good); also, the 8th level Arcane School Power of Universalist Wizard sounds good but in practice will run out of gas very quickly even at high levels, and Universalist Wizard doesn't have a (partially) hidden 20th level capstone the way specialist Wizards do (although this will not be relevant in most campaigns, especially if you are using Wizard to go into a prestige class). Two good replacements for Universalist Wizard exist, both based upon archetypes.

The first Universalist Wizard substitute is Exploiter Wizard, which gives you an Arcane Reservoir and Arcanist Exploits like an Arcanist gets (although not so numerous). See above for the Arcane Exploits you want to get first, but give priority to Quick Study, since this could save your rear not only if you didn't have the right spell prepared, but also if you had the right spell prepared, but you already cast it and you need to cast it again and haven't been able to get Pearls of Power of the right level.

The second Universalist Wizard substitute is Spell Sage Wizard, which can cast spells off a different spell list a few times per day -- this takes 1 round per level of the spell, so you won't want to do this in combat (unless it's a 1st or [i]maybe[/url] 2nd level spell), and eats 2 spell slots of the same level, so you don't want to do it too often, but if you don't have a divine caster, divine substitute Witch, or Skald (for Spell Kenning) in the party, this could be really important for fixing somebody up after a fight is over. Also important for this is the **4** caster level boost that you can do a few times per day, which oould be very important if you need to beat an opposed caster level check to fix somebody up (or for some other purpose), and could even be useful for the occasional amplified blast if you also have Intensified Spell. Not everybody will need this archetype, but if you need it, you need it bad.

Lelomenia wrote:
Psychic bad - spell list and other class features

Some specifics: Good and fairly up-to-date guides are available for this at the Guide to the Guides link above. I haven't studied Psychics as much as the other 9/9 casters, so what follows isn't as detailed or certain as I would like.

Psychic additional bad: Fear effects, including Intimidation, can shut down your ability to cast spells having Emotion components. Workaround: The Logical Spell Metamagic Feat lets you ignore the Emotion components, at the cost of raising the spell level and the casting time. Also, The DC for any concentration check for a spell with a Thought component increases by 10; however, Intuitive Spell Metamagic usually won't be worthwhile as workaround, since you have a built-in workaround of using a Move Action before casting the spell to avoid this DC increase (and unlike Intuitive Spell, it doesn't increase the level of spell slot you need to use, so Intuitive Spell would only be worthwhile if you have some way of mitigating the spontaneous spellcasting casting time penalty for using Metamagic).

Psychic additional bad: Use of metamagic normally increases casting time, which really hurts your action economy. See Sorcerer above for workarounds for this and for limited spells known, except that Paragon Surge isn't on your list, so being a Half-Elf won't help. Also see Phrenic Amplifications below.

Psychic good: Since you replace Verbal components with Thought components and Somatic components with Emotion components, you have a major head start for sneaky spellcasting (see Conceal Spell, which is NOT Metamagic and NOT restricted to Witch and Wizard in Pathfinder 1st Edition); this is good in an intrigue campaign, in which your spell list's concentration on Mind-Affecting spells won't hurt as much as in the average campaign (although you could still run into trouble in Construct-heavy or Undead-heavy portions of the campaign, so still plan carefully). Also, you get Undercasting: Learn a spell that has lower level versions, and you can cast any of the lower level versions without having to learn them separately. The lack of Somatic Components also means that if you can gain armor proficiency (by dip or by feats, although the latter route is expensive), wearing armor won't hurt your spellcasting.

Psychic additional good: Phrenic Amplifications and Major Amplifications can be good. In particular, when you get to 11th level, Mimic Metamagic lets you spend Phrenic Pool points instead of using higher level spell slots to apply Metamagic Feats (choose 2 Metamagic Feats each time you choose this Phrenic Amplification), and acts automatically as a workaround for the spontaneous spellcasting penalty for using Metamagic Feats.

Psychic mixed bag: Psychic Disciplines can have good powers, but they tend to be mentally-focused, so beware of Constructs and Undead -- if you are going to be in a campaign that has a lot of these, pick one that focuses on buffing your party. They also require Charisma or Wisdom (depending upon the Discipline), so that makes you more MAD than most other casters (comparable to an Arcanist using Consume Spells or Charisma-dependent Exploits).

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Last time I checked (a few minutes ago), not needing somatic components to cast a spell doesn't let you off the hook for getting AoO'd for it, if you do it in an enemy's threatened zone.

You're right, having no somatics bypasses the concentration check for being grappled, not for defensive casting.

Quote:
That depends upon how long your adventuring day is and how much access you have to spellcasting items (Wands, Staves, Pearls of Power, etc.).

Sure. But running out of spells is far more a hypothetical worry in forums, than a practical limitation in gameplay. This becomes visible if you calculate the average rounds of combat per day (which is obviously campaign-dependent; e.g. in PFS a fair number is 12) and the number of spells per day.

Quote:
Also, with pure prepared casters, you can run out of a certain spell you need long before you run out of total spells (just how long this takes again depends upon how much access you have to spellcasting items).

This, however, is important; and this is why (to many players) spontaneous casters are better or easier to play than prepared ones.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Now that I have a bit more time: ...

All of that is excellent advice! Let me add a few more options:

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Warning: This is Limburger = Weapons-Grade Cheese.

The Emergency Attunement feat allows you to change your choice of Paragon Surge as a standard action, e.g. to change the spells via Expanded Arcana, get a different metamagic feat, ...

A Ring of Continuation (56k) is pricey but can extend spells to last for the day; works well with Emergency Attunement.

Paragon Surge can get you a feat you already have a second time (even if that feat usually does not allow being taken multiple times), as you are not under the restrictions that come with "taking a feat": you are "treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites". However, such feats usually don't stack, but a few are worth it, for example Elven Spirit to increase your ability to overcome Spell Resistance (racial bonuses stack, 1st-level restriction of the feat only applies to "taking the feat" as written above).

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Witch: ... your choice of Patron and archetype can determine whether you can be (for instance) a complete divine caster replacement (Healing Patron, or if you're willing to wait long enough, Endurance Patron, and DON'T pick an archetype that replaces Patron spells that you don't already have on your spell list)

Taking an Impundulu as an Improved Familiar grants a Witch the patron spells of the Agility, Elements, or Transformation patron (your choice).

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Wizard: ... The second Universalist Wizard substitute is Spell Sage Wizard, which can cast spells off a different spell list a few times per day...

Another option is to take the feats Spell Specialization and Greater Spell Specialization: The first feat improves a spell of your choice (any spell list, must have Spell Focus of the spell's school) by +2 to caster level. The second feat allows you to cast that specialized spell by sacrificing a prepared spell of the same (or higher) level. Since you can take Spell Specialization multiple times, you can add any desired spell (for which you have Spell Focus) to your "Spells Known".

If you are a Half-Elf (prepared) caster, you can use Paragon Surge to add the spell (specialization) you want; Expanded Arcana is still better, but it doesn't allow you to add spells from another class.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Psychic: ... additional bad: Fear effects, including Intimidation...

Instead of going with a Psychic, it's also possible to take a Psychic bloodline Sorcerer: You get all the goodies from psychic magic (except the Psychic's spell list & amplifications) and you get to keep the great sorcerer/wizard spell list & features. Crossblooded sorcerers can get a second bloodline to improve upon it, e.g. Orc bloodline for additional damage + fear immunity (no need for the Logical Spell metamagic!), Dragon bloodline (variant) for access to the Psychic spell list, or Undead/Impossible bloodline to affect undead/constructs with mind-affecting magic.

The Razmiran Priest archetype would allow such a psychic Sorcerer to cast divine spells as well.
Sorcerers can temporarily or permanently change their bloodlines later for 20k gold (10k crafting) via an Ampoule of False Blood), e.g. use Arcane bloodline powers but keep the Psychic bloodline arcana & spells.


Thing i didn’t mention in my first post but worth mentioning, i feel crafting is a big strength particularly for wizards. This is really campaign dependent, but if i was making a list of “20 strongest feats in PF1” a fair number would be crafting feats, with Craft Wondrous being the leadoff around ~#5 or so (Improved Familiar, and its unwritten “you gain an extra standard action each turn that can be used for a lot of things” verbiage is also up there). Character wealth is a big power level factor, and craft feats are a straight increase to effective wealth.


Crafting feats are basically trading your feats for gold. How valuable they are depends on the campaign. If the GM is stingy with treasure especially magic items they are very strong. If the GM is generous with items they become less valuable. Also if the campaign uses the APB rules they become a lot less a lot less valuable. In a campaign with a generous GM that uses the ABP rules they are nearly useless.


Artofregicide wrote:
TxSam88 wrote:
research the God Wizard Build (i.e. the Buff Wizard). IMO it's by far one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Having built and played several "god wizards", from levels 1-15+ I can say the hype is overrated. It's pure theorycraft, presuming perfect intelligence and no surprises. I find that the actual implementation of the class requires more. Metagaming than is appropriate at most tables.

Having played the class multiple times from levels 1-20 over the last 30+ years, I will have to strongly disagree. Being able to cast Haste, Stoneskin, Greater invisibility, and teleport, then be able to use wands etc. make it a highly versatile character and one that by far makes a party more powerful


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

There are a couple of ways to completely avoid provoking an AoO when casting a spell. Casting a quickened spell or a spell that does only requires a free action do not provoke an AoO. Having a high enough concentration roll will prevent AoO. Concentration rolls unlike attack rolls or saving throws do not auto fail on a 1. Therefore one you have a high enough bonus you always make the roll. If you max out your casting stat and take combat casting you will be fine for your lower level spells. You can also take a trait like focused mind to get an additional +2, and if you play an elf you can trade out the elven weapon familiarity for another +2 bonus.

All classes can run out of resources and no longer be able to effective in combat. Even a fighter can run out of HP.

Even easier way of avoiding concentration checks... Stay out of combat. you have party members who are there for that job. plus you have spells/items like fly/invisibility etc.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Crafting feats are basically trading your feats for gold. How valuable they are depends on the campaign. If the GM is stingy with treasure especially magic items they are very strong. If the GM is generous with items they become less valuable. Also if the campaign uses the APB rules they become a lot less a lot less valuable. In a campaign with a generous GM that uses the ABP rules they are nearly useless.

i agree that the crafting feats effectively ‘trade your feats for gold’, but in practice you can also effectively trade gold for feats, as many feats provide stat bonuses that can be directly emulated by better equipment, and so it ends the same as spending 1 feat to get like 6 feats. For example, where standard player gets a +4 dex belt for 16K, craft player gets +4 dex/+4 con for almost the same price, which is like getting Toughness + Toughness + Great Fortitude for ~free.

And they are still very good in high wealth campaigns (until you run out of downtime) and ABP campaigns, although in ABP the craft priorities are different (craft arms in armor becomes weak but craft rods is still amazing).


Wizards, Witches, Arcanists, Clerics, Shaman, and Druids are without a doubt the strongest late-game classes in the game, but they are also some of the most complicated classes, and playing one well takes significant knowledge of the game. These classes typically have an answer to almost any problem that the party faces, and either outright solve the problem, alleviate the nuisance of a problem, or make the problem more manageable. The downside to these classes is that they have a rough early game, and are reliant upon their party. Except witches, witches pwn all game.

Comparatively, as far as Arcane Classes vs. Other Full Casting Classes, I'd personally say that Wizard > Druid > Arcanist > Witch = Cleric = Shaman > Sorcerer = Oracle in terms of "best". That's just my opinion though.

I've never personally played any of the Psychic classes, but I have extensively played Psionic classes. As far as Psionic Classes, I'd say Psions are on par with Witch, Shaman, and Cleric, while Wilders are probably on par with Sorcerers and Oracles. The major benefit to playing a Psionic full-casting class is that "Power Slots per Level" are non-existent compared to "Spell Slots per Level" for other casting classes. Psionic classes simply memorize their powers and cast from one giant pool of Power Points, and a strong majority of these Powers have "augment options". So you have the flexibility (even greater flexibility than a Sorcerer) to spend every PP you had for that day on manifesting a single Power over and over and over, 37+ times, if you wanted to, and augment these Powers to do all kinds of cool stuff on-the-fly. The significant downside of playing a Psionic full-casting class is the Metapsionic feats. For one, you only have the option to put a maximum of TWO Metapsionic feats on any given power, and building your character to be able to even USE Metapsionic feats competently is extremely feat-intensive.


Another specific thing that I meant to put in yesterday is that with the (now not so new) addition of the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat and/or VMC Rogue, you can seriously consider Arcane Trickster as a full arcane caster, mainly as a specialization of Wizard(*), since you need only 1 level of Sneak Attack class dip (or even 0 levels if your campaign is really going long-haul and allows access to VMC Rogue).

(*)Yes, it's technically possible to make an Arcane Trickster from other 9/9 arcane casters, or with the just-before-2nd-Editionn web enhancement prestige archetype Thought Thief, even the Psychic, but this generally won't be very good, because everything other than Wizard will always end up sacrificing progression in class features that are level-dependent and too significant to ignore, and Sorcerer other than Sage Sorcerer will have a really hard time getting enough skill ranks per level, while Psychic into Thought Thief will be really MAD, and Witch doesn't even normally have the required Mage Hand on their spell list to start with, while both Arcanist and Sorcerer will suffer from even more delay getting higher levels of spells (1 level of delay puts them 2 levels behind a single-class Wizard or Witch) unless you go the 0-level Sneak Attack Class dip VMC Rogue route, which will be good eventually but takes a long time to get going.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

If you go with a prepared spellcaster, whether it's the Wizard, a Witch, or even a divine prepared caster...

Take. Consumables. Seriously.

The chief complaint from many of my players is that only ONE guy in the group should play the wizard 'cuz he's good at "resource management" and they don't want to play a guy that runs out of spells. Scrolls, Wands and Potions however guarantee that such a fate is not your concern.

Scrolls: these are good for spells that don't require an enemy to make a saving throw against. Use scrolls for combat and non-combat utilities such as Fly, Spider Climb, or Insect Scouts. Also, with extra time and cash scrolls CAN be made at higher Caster Levels. If you only need 1 good casting of Resist Energy, but you need everyone in your party, including 5 PCs and an Animal Companion, to be resistant to Acid for a boss fight (likely about 10 minutes), you can either buy 1 wand of Resist Energy (Acid) with fifty charges and hit everyone with a charge individually for a cost of 4500 GP, or you can get 1 scroll of Communal Resist Energy with a Caster Level of 6 to cover all of you at once, one time, for 450 GP.

Wands: great for when you need a lot of castings of the same spell and again, you don't want an enemy to make saves against those spells. Frankly, I urge my players to get wands of combat-specific spells they know they're going to use a lot. Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray or Magic Missile, and so on. Now you're armed with 50 uses of that specific spell. Also while you can increase the CL of spells in a wand, this can get pricey quick. If you want a wand of Magic Missile with a CL of 3 so you get 2 missiles/charge, you're spending 2,250 GP for that wand.

Potions: these are good to hand out buff spells for OTHER people to manage the use of. For example if your party's melee martial types always want Bear's Endurance on them but don't want to spend the money for magic belt, they can pick up a few potions of their own or you could make/buy some for them.

By extension of this advice, if your class gives you a free feat to MAKE one of these consumables, ask your GM if the game will follow standard Wealth by Level averages and if your characters can be expected to have some Downtime once in a while. If so, I'd STRONGLY encourage you not to trade away the bonus feat.

A level 1 wizard starts with 70 GP average at level 1; they also start with Scribe Scroll. If permitted, they could start the game with 4 scrolls crafted, using the feat, for 50 GP. That means your character that should've started with 2 level 1 spells to cast on their first adventure now has SIX!

Never be out of spells; never be without the RIGHT spell for the job. Take consumables seriously.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

There are no strengths to playing Arcane casters, only weaknesses, for you are all NOTHING before the ultimate power, the Might of Undeath.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
UD Sentient Squirrel Swarm wrote:
There are no strengths to playing Arcane casters, only weaknesses, for you are all NOTHING before the ultimate power, the Might of Undeath.

A slow, feral grin creases the lips of a pale skinned, ebony haired half-elf dressed in dark cultist robes with bone motifs. He turns the pages of his spellbook, one made of leather made of the flesh of something very close to a humanoid creature, as if looking for a very specific entry.

"It is a pleasure to meet you." He says, tilting his head to the side as he studies the sentient swarm of undead squirrels. "I am Nezef, and I am the necromancer of Life. I am VERY interested in how you work. Come, let's take you apart and find out."

A laugh escape his lips, for he is clearly excited at the prospect of experimentation on the undead monstrosity. A sentient undead can share quite a bit of information as you take them apart piece by piece. The gestures to accompany a fireball dance across his fingertips and positive energy interlaces itself within the spell form.

Ehem... More on topic... I am a huge fan of the Arcanist, Sorcerer, Witch and Wizard. In that order. Preferably all four of them at the same time. evil laugh


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I ne ver really cared for the limits of the sorcerer, or few spells of the wizard, so my first full PFS caster was an arcanist, and i fell in love with it. She has a spell for EVERY occasion, spontaneously counter spells the enemy and has been struck only 2x in her entire 15 level career, due to dimensional shift and some spiderclimb boots.


Kurald Galain wrote:
JiCi wrote:
The biggest weakness is that casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity... and there is no option to completely negate this.
Well, except for Concentration checks, 5'-stepping, and spells without somatic components! Hmm, looks like you've got several options, then :)

1) Concentration checks can be hampered by opponents, DCs can ramp up high quicky, and even casting defensively is harsh with 15 + double the spell level. Where's my option (as costly as it can be) to NEVER provoke AoOs and NEVER require a Concentration check?

2) You need to step out of reach for ALL opponents, move to a safe spot and hope that your spells will not hit your allies in melee.

3) Not having somatic components for spells still requires verbal and material components, in addition of of extra spell slots.

This highlights a bunch of problems with spellcasting in general:
- Metamagic feats require higher spell slots, instead of ONLY extra time to cast.
- Your spells per day... are fixed for the day. You cannot take another hour of free time to recharge your slots.
- So many people want sometthing new for spellcasting, but even now, spells need higher spell slots to be more effective.
- A spell's DC is NOT tied to your caster level. A Fireball cast a 15th-level caster will only be slightly better if it was cast by a 5th-level caster.

Quote:
Quote:
Spells can be as pretty powerful and pretty weak depending on your rolls, you can literally run out of spells.
A well-played caster doesn't run out of spells.

You can unlucky with your rolls, but unlike weapons dealing with damage reduction, you don't get another try if your spell fumbles.

That's why I wished that the cantrips in P1E were like the ones in P2E. THAT is what is needed for spellcasters: to always have an unlimited backup spell.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.
JiCi wrote:
That's why I wished that the cantrips in P1E were like the ones in P2E. THAT is what is needed for spellcasters: to always have an unlimited backup spell.

And P1 casters already have that.

At low levels, it's the infinite-use cantrips (several of which are decent in combat at low level) and cheap consumables. At mid levels, casters simply have WAY more spells per day than combat rounds per day. So they can cast a spell every round of combat every day, and never run dry.

If an average day has 12 rounds of combat and you have 16 spells per day (which is easy for a 6th-level wizard or sorcerer), then where's the problem?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
DeathlessOne wrote:
UD Sentient Squirrel Swarm wrote:
There are no strengths to playing Arcane casters, only weaknesses, for you are all NOTHING before the ultimate power, the Might of Undeath.

A slow, feral grin creases the lips of a pale skinned, ebony haired half-elf dressed in dark cultist robes with bone motifs. He turns the pages of his spellbook, one made of leather made of the flesh of something very close to a humanoid creature, as if looking for a very specific entry.

"It is a pleasure to meet you." He says, tilting his head to the side as he studies the sentient swarm of undead squirrels. "I am Nezef, and I am the necromancer of Life. I am VERY interested in how you work. Come, let's take you apart and find out."

A laugh escape his lips, for he is clearly excited at the prospect of experimentation on the undead monstrosity. A sentient undead can share quite a bit of information as you take them apart piece by piece. The gestures to accompany a fireball dance across his fingertips and positive energy interlaces itself within the spell form.

Ehem... More on topic... I am a huge fan of the Arcanist, Sorcerer, Witch and Wizard. In that order. Preferably all four of them at the same time. evil laugh

You seem to have piqued the curiosity of the Swarm of Undead Sentient Squirrels, because the swarm stops a few yards from you and begins to stare at you inquisitively. While some squirrels appear to be assessing your motives, the others are examining your fleshy spellbook and the bones adorning your cultist robes. A lone squirrel comes forth from the swarm to meet you.

"Greetings Nezef,", the squirrel responds in a deep, thrumming voice, notably uncharacteristic for a being of its size and stature, "you needn't take Us apart or dissect Us, Necromancer of Life, all you need to know is that We serve Undeath, and pay homage to the Great Necromancer from the Thread Necromancers' Guild, for it was He who took Our powerless mortal form, removed Our weakness, and raised Us with new purpose through the Perfection of Undeath."

The lone squirrel returns to the rest of swarm that is waiting a short distance away and disappears into the multitude.

"You may be a Necromancer, but your mortal flesh makes you weak, half-elf,"the swarm echoes, as it turns to leave, "come with me to see The Great One, and He will remove your weakness, and Perfect you in Undeath...

...you will be reformed more Perfect than the Wizard and Witch Classes that hands-down dominate all other Arcane Casters, Divine Casters, Psions, and Psychics. "


2 people marked this as a favorite.
UD Sentient Squirrel Swarm wrote:
DeathlessOne wrote:
UD Sentient Squirrel Swarm wrote:
There are no strengths to playing Arcane casters, only weaknesses, for you are all NOTHING before the ultimate power, the Might of Undeath.

A slow, feral grin creases the lips of a pale skinned, ebony haired half-elf dressed in dark cultist robes with bone motifs. He turns the pages of his spellbook, one made of leather made of the flesh of something very close to a humanoid creature, as if looking for a very specific entry.

"It is a pleasure to meet you." He says, tilting his head to the side as he studies the sentient swarm of undead squirrels. "I am Nezef, and I am the necromancer of Life. I am VERY interested in how you work. Come, let's take you apart and find out."

A laugh escape his lips, for he is clearly excited at the prospect of experimentation on the undead monstrosity. A sentient undead can share quite a bit of information as you take them apart piece by piece. The gestures to accompany a fireball dance across his fingertips and positive energy interlaces itself within the spell form.

Ehem... More on topic... I am a huge fan of the Arcanist, Sorcerer, Witch and Wizard. In that order. Preferably all four of them at the same time. evil laugh

You seem to have piqued the curiosity of the Swarm of Undead Sentient Squirrels, because the swarm stops a few yards from you and begins to stare at you inquisitively. While some squirrels appear to be assessing your motives, the others are examining your fleshy spellbook and the bones adorning your cultist robes. A lone squirrel comes forth from the swarm to meet you.

"Greetings Nezef,", the squirrel responds in a deep, thrumming voice, notably uncharacteristic for a being of its size and stature, "you needn't take Us apart or dissect Us, Necromancer of Life, all you need to know is that We serve Undeath, and pay homage to the Great Necromancer from the Thread Necromancers' Guild, for it was He who...

So we'll admit, we did make a few *minor* misjudgments in the formula, but aren't they just the darn cutest little things? They'll devour all the flesh off a medium humanoid in no more than a round, which is adorable. But we're especially proud of their immunity to... actually, we don't want to spoil it.

They do have a very specific disdain of arcane spellcasters, which we're not quite certain about. Our R&D team is currently working on this for the next model, though we've been considering using chinchillas instead of squirrels.

Also, they seem to think that we're one male person, and not an organization of like-minded and tolerant individuals across ancestry, heritage, gender, religion, vital status, and political opinion. The main research lead on the project was female. Go figure.

PS: "White" Necromancers aren't just problematic, they're posers. The hipsters of Necromancy and I don't care that Life Necromancers are listed in the Archives of Nethys! We've been petitioning to delist them for centuries.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kurald Galain wrote:
JiCi wrote:
That's why I wished that the cantrips in P1E were like the ones in P2E. THAT is what is needed for spellcasters: to always have an unlimited backup spell.

And P1 casters already have that.

At low levels, it's the infinite-use cantrips (several of which are decent in combat at low level) and cheap consumables. At mid levels, casters simply have WAY more spells per day than combat rounds per day. So they can cast a spell every round of combat every day, and never run dry.

If an average day has 12 rounds of combat and you have 16 spells per day (which is easy for a 6th-level wizard or sorcerer), then where's the problem?

I mean, on the one hand - you're completely right. And that's before consumables are brought into the equation.

Plus, in 5e and PF2e a great deal of spellcasting tends to be just spamming the same cantrip over and over. Might as well be swinging a sword at that point.

On the other hand, scaling combat cantrips *can* be fun. The concern is if they overshadow low level damage dealing spells. But say a 5d3 jolt isn't necessarily better than a 5d6 shocking grasp.


The arcanist takes the least system mastery to build. If you choose a spell that doesn't work, just pick a different one the next day. It's the class I'd most recommend to someone who hasn't played a full arcane caster before. The semi-spontaneous magic makes you very flexible in how you use your spells per day.

Wizard takes a lot of system mastery to play. You can change your spells out, but it's still hard to know which ones and in what number you need to prepare each of them from day to day.

Witch casting has most of the same problems as Wizard, but hexes are often better than their spells anyway, so it hardly matters. There aren't many hexes, so it doesn't take much system mastery to pick the obviously best ones. Witch is pretty easy for a new player, but personally bores me with using the same few hexes in every combat.

Sorcerer takes a lot of system mastery to build. You need to pick a handful of the best spells that will be useful in the most situations, and if you pick the wrong ones changing them out can take a long time. But the sorcerer is probably the easiest to play. What you do doesn't change and you can do it pretty often. It's the full arcane class I'd recommend to a new player if someone else were building their character for them.

I'm not that familiar with psychic, but it looks much the same as the sorcerer.


Spoiler:
Thread Necromancers' Guild wrote:
PS: "White" Necromancers aren't just problematic, they're posers. The hipsters of Necromancy and I don't care that Life Necromancers are listed in the Archives of Nethys! We've been petitioning to delist them for centuries.

Please. White Necromancers are pretenders and don't want to acknowledge exactly what they do when they manipulate the energies behind life and death. They toy with forces they hardly understand and think it gives them power, when it makes them nothing more than a second rate cleric.

True power lays in the frailties and weakness inherent in all living flesh, and the living bone beneath it. Even negative energy and undeath are nothing more than parasites that require a once living being to anchor their presence on this plane, while the living are capable of replication, growth and change. Death is powerful, yes, but it is an eternity of unchanging entropy and decay from what was once living. You gain much in undeath, and lose much more from the life you fled.

Creating undead from the bodies of the living is child's play. Anyone spellcaster with a bit of onyx and a few motes of power can do it.


DeathlessOne wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

You know, it's statements like this that make us very confident that you'll be successful in your upcoming role in our organization.

We look forward to working with you in the near future!


Melkiador wrote:

The arcanist takes the least system mastery to build. If you choose a spell that doesn't work, just pick a different one the next day. It's the class I'd most recommend to someone who hasn't played a full arcane caster before. The semi-spontaneous magic makes you very flexible in how you use your spells per day.

Wizard takes a lot of system mastery to play. You can change your spells out, but it's still hard to know which ones and in what number you need to prepare each of them from day to day.

Witch casting has most of the same problems as Wizard, but hexes are often better than their spells anyway, so it hardly matters. There aren't many hexes, so it doesn't take much system mastery to pick the obviously best ones. Witch is pretty easy for a new player, but personally bores me with using the same few hexes in every combat.

Sorcerer takes a lot of system mastery to build. You need to pick a handful of the best spells that will be useful in the most situations, and if you pick the wrong ones changing them out can take a long time. But the sorcerer is probably the easiest to play. What you do doesn't change and you can do it pretty often. It's the full arcane class I'd recommend to a new player if someone else were building their character for them.

I'm not that familiar with psychic, but it looks much the same as the sorcerer.

I'm not sure I agree with the Arcanist. There's a *lot* of moving pieces involved.

I find sorcerer (or spontaneous casters in general) to be the easiest for a new player to play, but I don't suggest casters to the majority of new players. Honestly, I don't suggest PF1e to people new to RPGs.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kurald Galain wrote:
JiCi wrote:
That's why I wished that the cantrips in P1E were like the ones in P2E. THAT is what is needed for spellcasters: to always have an unlimited backup spell.

And P1 casters already have that.

At low levels, it's the infinite-use cantrips (several of which are decent in combat at low level) and cheap consumables. At mid levels, casters simply have WAY more spells per day than combat rounds per day. So they can cast a spell every round of combat every day, and never run dry.

If an average day has 12 rounds of combat and you have 16 spells per day (which is easy for a 6th-level wizard or sorcerer), then where's the problem?

12 rounds of combat per day? lol, we sometimes have 12 rounds of combat in one encounter......


TxSam88 wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:
JiCi wrote:
That's why I wished that the cantrips in P1E were like the ones in P2E. THAT is what is needed for spellcasters: to always have an unlimited backup spell.

And P1 casters already have that.

At low levels, it's the infinite-use cantrips (several of which are decent in combat at low level) and cheap consumables. At mid levels, casters simply have WAY more spells per day than combat rounds per day. So they can cast a spell every round of combat every day, and never run dry.

If an average day has 12 rounds of combat and you have 16 spells per day (which is easy for a 6th-level wizard or sorcerer), then where's the problem?

12 rounds of combat per day? lol, we sometimes have 12 rounds of combat in one encounter......

I find there's a huge gulf between theorycraft and actual play. In my 13th level game, the first fight took 7 rounds.


Artofregicide wrote:
I find there's a huge gulf between theorycraft and actual play.

Understatement of the decade. Haha.

Quote:
In my 13th level game, the first fight took 7 rounds.

A common occurrence in my actual game play experience. Though, what I find out is more common than anything else is this: I don't cast a spell every round. I rarely play characters that need to cast a spell every other round. I NEVER run out of things to do.


DeathlessOne wrote:
Artofregicide wrote:
I find there's a huge gulf between theorycraft and actual play.

Understatement of the decade. Haha.

Quote:
In my 13th level game, the first fight took 7 rounds.
A common occurrence in my actual game play experience. Though, what I find out is more common than anything else is this: I don't cast a spell every round. I rarely play characters that need to cast a spell every other round. I NEVER run out of things to do.

This be true, but it depends on the character, tbh. A full caster is usually going to be regularly utilizing some kind of expendable daily resources, in my opinion. Especially at higher levels. Low level wands and summons help get more mileage without sitting around.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Artofregicide wrote:
This be true, but it depends on the character, tbh. A full caster is usually going to be regularly utilizing some kind of expendable daily resources, in my opinion. Especially at higher levels. Low level wands and summons help get more mileage without sitting around.

If I could give anyone playing a full caster some advice, and actually have them follow it, it would be this: Do not design your character in such a way that being unable to cast a spell renders you helpless or unable to contribute. Always have something else you can fall back on... and a third thing to fall back on. Sacrifice overall power if you need to in order to make this happen. It will save your character's life and, most likely, one of your party member's life.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Artofregicide wrote:
I find there's a huge gulf between theorycraft and actual play. In my 13th level game, the first fight took 7 rounds.

Hence why I said "average".

But since we're talking about casters running out of spells: a 13th-level caster has 30-40 spells per day, so clearly a 7-round combat won't make him run out of spells.

DeathlessOne wrote:
I don't cast a spell every round. I rarely play characters that need to cast a spell every other round. I NEVER run out of things to do.

There we go.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

For a high level caster running completely out of spells is not usually a problem. Running out of effective spells is a different thing. This means that a caster needs to be careful about his spell selections. A spell that was a combat stopper at low level may be useless at high level. Sleep is a perfect example of this. At first level the spell can take down several opponents, but at 15th level it is useless. Some spells scale up as you gain level so remain useful at higher levels. Wizards and other prepared casters do better in this respect due to their ability to swap out spells.

To avoid this a caster needs to be able to judge when to use his big spells and when to hold back. Wizards have to be especially good at this as they can only cast what they memorize, but even sorcerers need to worry about it. A sorcerer can cast any spell he knows as long as he has the appropriate slot available. But if he uses up all his high level spells slots early he cannot cast any of them.

The hardest thing to master on any caster is when to use your high level spells, and when to go with a lesser option. Being too cautious and you may put your party in danger, but being too eager and you may not have your high level spells when you need them.

1 to 50 of 67 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Whats the strength and weaknesses of the full arcane casters (And psychic)? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.