I ran the mr beak fight with the modification of making the spell a 2nd level phantom pain. It was a little under powered (I’d push it to be a 3rd level spell consistent with the other soul bound dolls). My mr beak unleashed that first round, then flew around and dive bombed a party of 6, managing to last 4 rounds, but also rolling 1s on every attack roll, so he didn’t really present much of a threat, but if he had landed and attacked he would have been mobbed down much too fast.
Even though the 2nd level phantom pain feels a little weak, the big issue with vampiric mist is that it is throwing an absurdly high DC high damage effect with the death trait on it. It’s likelihood of just flat killing a PC are much, much to high. At the very least GMs should consider modifying the ability (since it can’t heal the bird anyway) to not be a death effect. 6d6 with a high DC could still be pretty lethal to players, but it is not floating around at over a 50% chance of instant death.
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So use your Fortune Points.
I like it as-is and hope any errata keeps the doll.
If anything change the encounter grading to Extreme and problem solved.
Again, the errata is not for the module, it's for the Bestiary for the reasons outlined by myself and other posters.
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Yeah, I don't believe a hero point can save you from a death effect.
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This is an issue aside from the module entirely, it would do better in its own thread elsewhere. That said, if Hero Points allow a character to reroll or lose the dying condition, that does little to stop being slain outright. Further, it does nothing to address the original problem that requires errata for numerous reasons.
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I made a new thread in the rules sub for the hero point question.
the big issue with vampiric mistThis sentence only makes sense if you meant vampiric touch. (There is a vampiric mist in the adventure, but not at this location)
Too late to edit, but yes, the vampiric touch spell as a third level spell against level 1 characters is an insta-death for most PCs.
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This module has been pretty fun so far. It's one of the first APs I've run concurrently for two different groups because it is enjoyable to DM. It's simple. It has well-designed, interesting encounters. The dungeon parts are fun. It's challenging, but not a TPK fest. The imagery is also cool. This ancient lighthouse that can be used to animate undead and transport monsters is conceptually cool and provides great imagery for the players' imaginations.
Holy...! Do not fight that Voidglutton with lvl 4 characters. Boost to lvl 5 or you likely gonna have a TPK.
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Holy...! Do not fight that Voidglutton with lvl 4 characters. Boost to lvl 5 or you likely gonna have a TPK.
It IS extreme for level 4 encounter so not particularly surprising... And on top of that it has extreme AC for level 8 creature. So even level 5 party would have hard time. (note for context: extreme ac for level 8 creature means that level 8 character would consistently miss the dc and basically never crit it. level 8 fighter would need to roll 14 or higher to hit voidglutton and yeah would never crit it without nat 20.)
The sentence "If the voidglutton clearly has the upper hand over a group of intruders, it might offer to let most of them flee if they leave it a single survivor to torment to death over a few months." is kinda funny since creature obviously will have advantage, but it also works as "party was dumb enough to not escape, so let them have out while still giving chance to rescue the captured character"
HOWEVER this is the part I want to highlight: "but it doesn’t pursue heroes who flee these rooms."
The voidglutton guards optional set of rooms where PCs can find the book and get few other foreshadowing of Belcorra and find a vault with extra loot, but its very much clearly meant to be like Malfeshnekor in Rise of the Runelord: Optional boss you return later when you are tougher. PCs could also sneak around the rooms with invisibility and loot important items and then escape it and so avoid it that way, voidglutton doesn't see invisible creatures automatically.
Either way I want to reiterate: It is clearly meant to be boss you can't beat right now and need to backtrack later on, even level 5 party would likely get their asses kicked. Your party is going to have hard time if they believe that all encounters they meet are going to be beatable on first chance they get.
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Holy...! Do not fight that Voidglutton with lvl 4 characters. Boost to lvl 5 or you likely gonna have a TPK.It IS extreme for level 4 encounter so not particularly surprising... And on top of that it has extreme AC for level 8 creature. So even level 5 party would have hard time. (note for context: extreme ac for level 8 creature means that level 8 character would consistently miss the dc and basically never crit it. level 8 fighter would need to roll 14 or higher to hit voidglutton and yeah would never crit it without nat 20.)
The sentence "If the voidglutton clearly has the upper hand over a group of intruders, it might offer to let most of them flee if they leave it a single survivor to torment to death over a few months." is kinda funny since creature obviously will have advantage, but it also works as "party was dumb enough to not escape, so let them have out while still giving chance to rescue the captured character"
HOWEVER this is the part I want to highlight: "but it doesn’t pursue heroes who flee these rooms."
The voidglutton guards optional set of rooms where PCs can find the book and get few other foreshadowing of Belcorra and find a vault with extra loot, but its very much clearly meant to be like Malfeshnekor in Rise of the Runelord: Optional boss you return later when you are tougher. PCs could also sneak around the rooms with invisibility and loot important items and then escape it and so avoid it that way, voidglutton doesn't see invisible creatures automatically.
Either way I want to reiterate: It is clearly meant to be boss you can't beat right now and need to backtrack later on, even level 5 party would likely get their asses kicked. Your party is going to have hard time if they believe that all encounters they meet are going to be beatable on first chance they get.
The party beat it at lvl 5. I doubt they would have done it at lvl 4. Took everything they had and some lucky rolls. Almost killed the monk who ended the fight unconcious and dying 3. 1 hit point for the fighter. No 3rd lvl heals and a 2nd level heal used for sorcerer who couldn't attack much. The rogue at like 10 hit points left.
It was visually a cool fight. We could all picture it. I doubt we survive without some lucky rolls and definitely not if we were 4th.
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I think its amazing feat to beat it even at level 5, level 4 is basically impossible with the AC 30 unless party happens to have lot of good spells for situation and voidglutton is unlucky with saves.
What saved us was the fighter. Fighter at lvl 5 has a +16 to hit. He must have rolled above 14 like 80% of his rolls. Bravery was also immensely helpful against this creature. All he needed to roll was a miss to prevent being frightened. Thus the creature couldn't feed on his fear and focused on the rogue and monk, so he could feed on their fear.
And having darkvision as only the rogue didn't have darkvision. The rogue didn't do much, but managed to land one lucky hit.
And fortunately the voidglutton only has darkvision, so it was hampered by its own darkness when attacking. It used Consume Fear to heal itself, so it couldn't turn invisible.
And the room was so small, it was easy to surround it and get flank. Getting a flank was more important than a 3rd attack.
The fighter really shined in this fight. If not for the fighter, we would likely all be dead. You didn't get to say that too often in PF1, but in PF2 the fighter is a beast.
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...Wait, how does the fighter at level 5 have +16? According to my calculations that would be their strike bonus at level 8 (4 from strength +4 expert profiency, +8 from level, I completely forgot to consider any item bonuses)
5 level + 6 (Master proficiency swords) + 4 strength +1 item = +16.
Fighters special ability is hitting things very well with one weapon group.
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Huh I completely forgot that fighters get master profiency for single group at level 5 xD
That'd mean that level 8 fighter would instead have about +16(+17 with item runes) hit bonus and... Yeah, still would miss the creature half the time especially if it stays on air so can't be flanked and wouldn't be able to crit creature even with flank since they'd need 11 to hit even.
(I just want to highlight how extreme the "extreme" category monster statistics are xD )
Huh I completely forgot that fighters get master profiency for single group at level 5 xD
That'd mean that level 8 fighter would instead have about +16(+17 with item runes) hit bonus and... Yeah, still would miss the creature half the time especially if it stays on air so can't be flanked and wouldn't be able to crit creature even with flank since they'd need 11 to hit even.
(I just want to highlight how extreme the "extreme" category monster statistics are xD )
I didn't make it stay in the air. Might have been harder to flank, but it would have lost an action every round hovering too. So might have made it less dangerous to the party.
Wait, do creatures that have only fly speed need to use action to hover?
That would be nice to know for will o wisps in general x'D
They may. I generally don't penalize flying only creatures if they stay on the ground, but by the rules they may need to hover. Then again hovering is a move action I believe provoking AoOs, so they would likely be better off doing 5 foot step moves if possible. It's one of those areas where the DM sort of has to go with what seems right or a flying only creature would constantly be penalized an action. Or maybe there is some rule I haven't seen contradicting this.
You cannot step with a fly speed, even if its the only speed you have. Personally I allow creatures with only a fly speed to stay where they are if they are at ground level without requiring an action.
So a flying creature is always going to trigger reactions unless it has a special ability. Nasty.
Just because you have only a flying speed doesn't mean you can't land. If you land you don't need to maintain flight.
I imagine so. It seems strange to imagine a creature who can only fly able to move while on the ground like it had legs or ground-based locomotion. As with most things in these types of games, you just have to roll with what seems to work best for the challenge.
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What is sillier?
That a gas bag can "land", or that it needs to waste one action each turn? Or maybe that the bag of gas can fall prone, which it will do if it doesn't spend that action?
(Rhetorical question)
I don't picture them landing so much as floating above the ground on land. You can't view things too rigidly in a game with so many fantastic creatures. DM has to make them look appropriate and interesting in a fight and not get too bogged down with precise rulings.
I pretty much ran it like it landed, but described it as floating above the ground and moving very naturally in that floating position.
And fortunately the voidglutton only has darkvision, so it was hampered by its own darkness when attacking.
The Voidglutton is immune to magic, so level 4 Darkness doesn't affect it more than a level 2 Darkness.
And fortunately the voidglutton only has darkvision, so it was hampered by its own darkness when attacking.The Voidglutton is immune to magic, so level 4 Darkness doesn't affect it more than a level 2 Darkness.
Darkness is an environmental effect not targeted magic. It is not immune to darkness. Just like it isn't immune to invisibility. Invisibility does not target the voidglutton. Darkness does not target the voidglutton.
Immunity to magic has always meant immune to magic that directly targets it or would damage it. Not magic that targets other creatures or creates environmental effects like wind, darkness, or wall spells.
Never heard of anyone playing it that way.
That said, at worst it would give enemies DC 5 concealment <_< Like its still going to hit lower level characters pretty easily and likely crit, especially since its invisible before attacking
It's invisible for its first attack. Then concealed to characters with darkvision. Once it uses its consume fear ability, it loses the ability to turn invisible and has a glowing aura. It wasn't made clear, so I made it targetable by its glow in the darkness making it concealable to the party members without darkvision due to its consume fear causing it to glow again.
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Ya I'm aware of invisibility ending after it attacks instead of it just being hidden, I meant it not being able to see through its own darkness perfectly doesn't hamper it much.
But yeah I'm also under impression that since Voidglutton glows bright light that its glow basically removes darkness it casts completely back to "normal lightning".
I made the aura work like faerie fire when it was active making the creature concealed instead of completely hidden for non-darkvision players.
Darkness doesn't affect a creature, it affects the environment. That's like saying a creature which is immune to magic can walk through a wall of stone.And fortunately the voidglutton only has darkvision, so it was hampered by its own darkness when attacking.The Voidglutton is immune to magic, so level 4 Darkness doesn't affect it more than a level 2 Darkness.
Its not that clear:
"Heightened (4th) Even creatures with darkvision (but not greater darkvision) can barely see through the darkness. They treat targets seen through the darkness as concealed."
It can be read both ways, as an effect to creatures and as an effect on the environment.
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Darkness doesn't affect a creature, it affects the environment. That's like saying a creature which is immune to magic can walk through a wall of stone.And fortunately the voidglutton only has darkvision, so it was hampered by its own darkness when attacking.The Voidglutton is immune to magic, so level 4 Darkness doesn't affect it more than a level 2 Darkness.Its not that clear:
"Heightened (4th) Even creatures with darkvision (but not greater darkvision) can barely see through the darkness. They treat targets seen through the darkness as concealed."
It can be read both ways, as an effect to creatures and as an effect on the environment.
I've never run darkness that way. Or environmental effects. Otherwise, it would mean magic immune creatures are immune to light or mist or the illumination from a wall of fire meaning they basically don't even see it. Or can walk through a wall of stone or a wall of force. I've never seen it played that way.
I've never run darkness that way. Or environmental effects. Otherwise, it would mean magic immune creatures are immune to light or mist or the illumination from a wall of fire meaning they basically don't even see it. Or can walk through a wall of stone or a wall of force. I've never seen it played that way.Darkness doesn't affect a creature, it affects the environment. That's like saying a creature which is immune to magic can walk through a wall of stone.And fortunately the voidglutton only has darkvision, so it was hampered by its own darkness when attacking.The Voidglutton is immune to magic, so level 4 Darkness doesn't affect it more than a level 2 Darkness.Its not that clear:
"Heightened (4th) Even creatures with darkvision (but not greater darkvision) can barely see through the darkness. They treat targets seen through the darkness as concealed."
It can be read both ways, as an effect to creatures and as an effect on the environment.
I've never said anything like that. The basic effect of Darkness is to reduce light. That doesn't affect a creature and as such being immune to magic doesn't help.
But the extra effect of Darkness when cast at level 4+ is an effect that can be read as an effect on environment or on creatures. If you read it as an effect on creatures, then a magic immune creature is immune to it.The same way a creature immune to magic can walk through a wall of fire without being affected while still benefiting from the illumination of the said wall. A spell can combine an environmental effect and a targetted effect.
Am I understanding the adventure correctly that the only real 'blocker' in the whole of Book 1 is the Wall Of Force on the 4th level that separates books 1 and 2?
Seriously, I dont know how a level 5 PC is supposed to survive falling into the water
The hydras are sleepy and Slowed 2 during the first rounds of combat. So, it's quite easy as long as the PC doesn't have the bad idea of attacking them.
Also, my PCs fell into the water and attacked the hydras, waking them up completely. It's been a very long fight to get them out of the water, but they succeeded (with a lot of chance). So, it's possible, but super hard.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t think we need spoilers anymore since this thread got moved to the specific forum for the AP. I love that this AP includes monsters that are just too powerful to fight. Playing with 6 players, I have had to beef up some of them to keep that feel.
I do recommend GMs be sure to talk to their players about expectations for lethality and what playing in an open sand box style of game can mean and how everyone wants to handle that. As long as folks have shared expectations, it is pretty easy to have a really great time with this AP.
Also, unless there's some specific difference in this case, the creatures wouldn't have any reactions to spend if they were slowed.