Rogue is in desperate need of an Expanded Arsenal Feat


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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The more weapons get released, the more painful the lack of martial weapon options the Rogue has gets. There are lots of cool weapons like the Starknife, the Spiked Chain or the Kukri that either are impossible to use with a Rogue or needs a specific ancestry and Ancestry feat combo (I'm ok with Gnome or Goblin weapons to work like this, but they are also gated through rarity and there are other weapons that makes no sense you have no way to use them). In the same way Monks can get more options as more content gets released through new stances and Monastic Weaponry, Rogues could use a level 1 or 2 feat that gives them proficiency with all Finesse martial weapons.

For me this is the only stain in a otherwise outstanding class, so I hope we get something similar in the future.


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Yea it does seem pretty odd. If balance is a concern just stipulate the martial weapons need to be a d6 or smaller. Maybe it's a thematic thing on the designers part, I'm not sure


WWHsmackdown wrote:
Yea it does seem pretty odd. If balance is a concern just stipulate the martial weapons need to be a d6 or smaller. Maybe it's a thematic thing on the designers part, I'm not sure

I don't think balance is a problem. Right now you can play a rogue that uses an Aldori Dueling Sword or Sawtooth Sabers but not one that uses a Starknife.


For future weapons, a "Rogue" trait (much like the "Monk" trait) would
allow for easy adding of more options.
Similarly, there could be a path via Rogue feats to add that trait to some weapons (again much like the "Monk" trait which has a few options to do that).

The starknife absence does bother me.

(There could also be a "Wizard" trait to add to their set. LOL)


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I miss the good old days of 3.5/P1E, where you were at most one proficiency feat away from being able to use any weapon you thought looked cool for a Rogue. Then 4E made it only Light or Ranged weapons, and 5E, SF, and P2E had to follow that same unfortunate trend,

Scarab Sages

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WWHsmackdown wrote:
Yea it does seem pretty odd. If balance is a concern just stipulate the martial weapons need to be a d6 or smaller. Maybe it's a thematic thing on the designers part, I'm not sure

I think this is a legacy from 1E (where rogues had a similar weaopn list) that the developers didn't get rid of. The wizard has a similar defect.

WWHsmackdown wrote:

For future weapons, a "Rogue" trait (much like the "Monk" trait) would

allow for easy adding of more options.
Similarly, there could be a path via Rogue feats to add that trait to some weapons (again much like the "Monk" trait which has a few options to do that).

The starknife absence does bother me.

(There could also be a "Wizard" trait to add to their set. LOL)

It would be simpler to just change the rogue's proficiencies to all martial weapons and the wizard's to all simple weapons.


Tectorman wrote:
I miss the good old days of 3.5/P1E, where you were at most one proficiency feat away from being able to use any weapon you thought looked cool for a Rogue. Then 4E made it only Light or Ranged weapons, and 5E, SF, and P2E had to follow that same unfortunate trend,

The weapon proficiency feat really should make your training with the weapon scale with your class based progression.


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NECR0G1ANT wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Yea it does seem pretty odd. If balance is a concern just stipulate the martial weapons need to be a d6 or smaller. Maybe it's a thematic thing on the designers part, I'm not sure

I think this is a legacy from 1E (where rogues had a similar weaopn list) that the developers didn't get rid of. The wizard has a similar defect.

WWHsmackdown wrote:

For future weapons, a "Rogue" trait (much like the "Monk" trait) would

allow for easy adding of more options.
Similarly, there could be a path via Rogue feats to add that trait to some weapons (again much like the "Monk" trait which has a few options to do that).

The starknife absence does bother me.

(There could also be a "Wizard" trait to add to their set. LOL)

It would be simpler to just change the rogue's proficiencies to all martial weapons and the wizard's to all simple weapons.

Yeah, there's no real reason to limit rogues on their weapon proficiency when they are limited to what they can sneak attack with.


NECR0G1ANT wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Yea it does seem pretty odd. If balance is a concern just stipulate the martial weapons need to be a d6 or smaller. Maybe it's a thematic thing on the designers part, I'm not sure

I think this is a legacy from 1E (where rogues had a similar weaopn list) that the developers didn't get rid of. The wizard has a similar defect.

WWHsmackdown wrote:

For future weapons, a "Rogue" trait (much like the "Monk" trait) would

allow for easy adding of more options.
Similarly, there could be a path via Rogue feats to add that trait to some weapons (again much like the "Monk" trait which has a few options to do that).

The starknife absence does bother me.

(There could also be a "Wizard" trait to add to their set. LOL)

It would be simpler to just change the rogue's proficiencies to all martial weapons and the wizard's to all simple weapons.

This would open up Rogue to pick things that require martial weapon proficiency like Marshal Dedication. It is a slighly power boost instead of just opening up options.


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But not a game breaking power boost.

Another alternative would be giving wizards access to simple weapons of 1 weapon group, bards all simple weapons and the martial weapons of 1 group, and rogues all simple and martials from 2 weapon groups. That way there's no need for additional traits, and you can easily accommodate new weapons and entire weapon groups that come into the game, like firearms.


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The difference between having a Rogue trait and simply giving Rogues all martial weapons (w/ the Sneak Attack doing the filtering) is the Rogue trait could allow for Sneak Attack on weapons that might not normally qualify.

(Yes, that's more futureproofing than anything; it's just another data point, not an argument.)


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I did consider that, but I personally would rather that be handled by either a feat or a racket, like how Ruffians can use sneak attack with all simple weapons.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
But not a game breaking power boost.

I know, the point I was trying to make is that adding this through a feat wouldn't even be a power boost for the class but would still make tons of people happy.


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Kasoh wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
I miss the good old days of 3.5/P1E, where you were at most one proficiency feat away from being able to use any weapon you thought looked cool for a Rogue. Then 4E made it only Light or Ranged weapons, and 5E, SF, and P2E had to follow that same unfortunate trend,
The weapon proficiency feat really should make your training with the weapon scale with your class based progression.

While I completely agree, I was more getting at the whole "sure, you're... allowed... to use a feat to become proficient with, say, a glaive or a greatsword, but you're still not allowed to sneak attack with it (or use various other class feats or features). Maybe that'll teach you not to color outside the lines".


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
roquepo wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
But not a game breaking power boost.
I know, the point I was trying to make is that adding this through a feat wouldn't even be a power boost for the class but would still make tons of people happy.

I'd be pretty upset if it were a feat, tbh. The weapons a rogue would want to pick up generally are side-grades to begin with, having to spend valuable class resources on something like that feels really bad.


I think the monk, rogue, Swashbuckler, and Investigator could use a feat that lets them use their abilities with more weapons. I think something like this would be a bit more useful than having a new weapon trait.


Albatoonoe wrote:
I think the monk, rogue, Swashbuckler, and Investigator could use a feat that lets them use their abilities with more weapons. I think something like this would be a bit more useful than having a new weapon trait.

Yes and no. I think it would be nice to have more options, but they generally shouldn't be able to use their abilities with weapons dealing a lot of damage. For example, the rogue is balanced around sneak attack adding 1d6 at low levels, and increasing by 1d6 at levels 5, 11, and 17 (which is generally around the same time as Striking weapons come online, give or take a level or two). So the fighter gets to deal d8, d10 or d12 damage with heavy weapons, while the rogue gets 2d6 or d4+d6. Letting the rogue go up to d8+d6, d10+d6 or d12+d6 would be out of line.

But letting the rogue get added proficiency to use agile/finesse martial weapons with full proficiency? Yeah, I can get behind that. Possibly add a qualifier about one-handed weapons as well, to prevent them from using elven curve blades and spiked chains.


What about some custom background instead?

Proficiency in a specific weapon ( regardless the fact it might be simple, Martial or advanced) which scales its proficiency as it were one of yours, a skill feat and a lore.


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Albatoonoe wrote:
I think the monk, rogue, Swashbuckler, and Investigator could use a feat that lets them use their abilities with more weapons. I think something like this would be a bit more useful than having a new weapon trait.

Investigators do have the Takedown Expert feat. And there's always the Ruffian Rogue to get Sneak Attack with simple weapons.

Lantern Lodge

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NECR0G1ANT wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Yea it does seem pretty odd. If balance is a concern just stipulate the martial weapons need to be a d6 or smaller. Maybe it's a thematic thing on the designers part, I'm not sure

I think this is a legacy from 1E (where rogues had a similar weaopn list) that the developers didn't get rid of. The wizard has a similar defect.

WWHsmackdown wrote:

For future weapons, a "Rogue" trait (much like the "Monk" trait) would

allow for easy adding of more options.
Similarly, there could be a path via Rogue feats to add that trait to some weapons (again much like the "Monk" trait which has a few options to do that).

The starknife absence does bother me.

(There could also be a "Wizard" trait to add to their set. LOL)

It would be simpler to just change the rogue's proficiencies to all martial weapons and the wizard's to all simple weapons.

I'd make it proficiency with all simple weapons (regardless of finnese or agile traits) and with all martial weapons that have the finesse or agile trait, and keep in the shortbow. Also, note that this may include some weapons that are Uncommon. The rogue might be able to use them, but doesn't necessarily have access to them unless the GM allows them to obtain the Uncommon weapon.


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Staffan Johansson wrote:
Albatoonoe wrote:
I think the monk, rogue, Swashbuckler, and Investigator could use a feat that lets them use their abilities with more weapons. I think something like this would be a bit more useful than having a new weapon trait.

Yes and no. I think it would be nice to have more options, but they generally shouldn't be able to use their abilities with weapons dealing a lot of damage. For example, the rogue is balanced around sneak attack adding 1d6 at low levels, and increasing by 1d6 at levels 5, 11, and 17 (which is generally around the same time as Striking weapons come online, give or take a level or two). So the fighter gets to deal d8, d10 or d12 damage with heavy weapons, while the rogue gets 2d6 or d4+d6. Letting the rogue go up to d8+d6, d10+d6 or d12+d6 would be out of line.

But letting the rogue get added proficiency to use agile/finesse martial weapons with full proficiency? Yeah, I can get behind that. Possibly add a qualifier about one-handed weapons as well, to prevent them from using elven curve blades and spiked chains.

Alternatively, let Rogues use class feats and features with everything and qualify the extra damage of Sneak Attack based on the weapon used. +1d6 (or more at higher levels) with all the currently allowed weapons, and +1 (going up to eventually +4) with everything using a higher base damage die. Or something in between (call it a d2).

Too much damage is a valid concern, but "no coloring outside the lines" is not how to address that.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Staffan Johansson wrote:
Letting the rogue go up to d8+d6, d10+d6 or d12+d6 would be out of line.

To be honest I'm not even sure how much of a problem this would be.

Ruffian rogues already have access to a d8 via the longspear just as part of their racket.

If they could theoretically spend a feat to upgrade to a martial weapon, a martial reach weapon only really nets them +1 damage per die, which is okay but not all that eye catching.

Similarly, elven curve blades are d8 forceful (which makes it pretty functionally a d10 weapon on your second swing in a round) and the aldori dueling sword is a one handed d8 finesse weapon. Both are pretty provisionally accessible depending on your ancestry and some DM adjudication.

A feat that let you, for instance, use a longsword would probably just be outright worse than just snagging the dueling sword instead.

In any case, I mostly agree with Tectorman here. If damage is a concern, it's better to find a way to deal with those damage woes directly rather than just blanket soft-banning a ton of character concepts.


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If it's not a problem for Investigators and Swashbucklers to have full martial proficiency I don't see why it would be for Rogues. Their damage die size is already regulated by the agile/finesse requirement same as the other two classes, it'd only be an issue if Paizo goes crazy and releases a d10 finesse weapon - which, judging by existing precedent of the curve blade and dueling sword, would likely have to be a 2handed exotic weapon.

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