Lamest level up for a class


Rules Questions


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I was looking at the bard class, and from level 12 -> 13, you get access to 1 level 5 spell, no BAB,saves,specials, just a single spell. Are there other classes that get as little 'stuff' for a level?


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This would fit better in the Pathfinder 1st Edition General Discussion rather than the Paizo General Discussion forum.

The lame level 13 is a side effect of the progression math in Pathfinder 1st Edition. For a 3/4 BAB class, the BAB progression has a pattern +0,+1,+1,+1 for every 4 levels. The +0 happens at 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels. Saves advance at every even level for good saves and one level out of 3 for poor saves. Neither save advances at 13th level.

The only good news is spell advancement, which advance at odd levels for full spell progression classes and at every 3 levels starting at 1st for 2/3 spell progression classes. Thus, the bard learns new spell levels at 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th levels.

Also, all classes gain a feat at odd levels, so bard gains at feat at 13th level.

Paizo liked regular advancement of numbers in multiples of 2, 3, and 4. Thirteen is a prime number, so that level misses out. And gaining 5th level spells was good enough that the designers did not throw in a token special ability to fill in the gap.

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This thread has been moved to the PF1 rules forum.


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Forkedwizard wrote:
I was looking at the bard class, and from level 12 -> 13, you get access to 1 level 5 spell, no BAB,saves,specials, just a single spell. Are there other classes that get as little 'stuff' for a level?

Don't Bards get Bardic Performance as a swift action at 13? Action Economy is huge. Level 13 is a fabulous level for Bards.

The lamest level up for any class is level(s) 1-20 of Rogue. Lol.

There are lots of classes that have dead levels... like pretty much every level after level 1 of Cleric... ooh, Channel Energy goes up, and you might get another Domain Power at 6 or 8 or who cares? Same with a lot of Witches... ooh, more Hexes and spells but literally nothing else to look forward to until Capstone.


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As a late prime number, any class that doesn't get some "every X levels ability" that happens to land on 13 is going to get bupkis. Most of the classes got out of their way special abilities specifically at that level to fill in the hole, or you're just such a good caster like cleric that they don't give you hardly anything.


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Diego Valdez wrote:
This thread has been moved to the PF1 rules forum.

there is no rules question, this is just a discussion thread. should not be in the rules forum


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2nd level sorcerer (from 1st) learns a cantrip. For a full spellcaster the BAB and will save increases are relatively minor things, and if your starting 1st level spells aren't much affected by caster level then that increase doesn't help either.

Dark Archive

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basically half the levels of shifter


A level 5 spell when you previously didn't have access to level 5 spells is actually huge. That's the level where stuff like Shadowbard, Music of the Spheres and even Greater Bladed Dash come into play.

It's also a level where you gain a feat, which is automatically a plus.

Just be glad you aren't a Shifter.


Getting a new spell level is generally a bigger deal than getting some fluff ability or incremental tick.


The worst level advancement is probably Metamorph Alchemist 17th level. No increase to BAB or saves, and the literally only scaling ability that progresses is the duraiton of the Shapechanger ability from 16 hours per use to 17. With eight daily uses, I don't see that ever being relevant. 7th level is also virtually empty, but does provide +1 BAB, and the increased duration is at least theoretically useful, even though last level already provided 18 total levels per day.

Kaouse wrote:
A level 5 spell when you previously didn't have access to level 5 spells is actually huge. That's the level where stuff like Shadowbard, Music of the Spheres and even Greater Bladed Dash come into play.

Or my favourite, Bard's Escape. Move all melees in your gropup into perfect position next to enemies as you chose, setting up flanking as you like? Not something for a party with unMonk, pouncing Barb, etc., but a godsend for plenty parties nonetheless!

Melkiador wrote:
Getting a new spell level is generally a bigger deal than getting some fluff ability or incremental tick.

I'd even say gaining another spell per day of your highest level is a notable gain for any full or 6/9 caster. Which means no full or 6/9 casters need apply here, really.


5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th and 19th can be a bit rubbish because no save increases, no BAB for 1/2-BAB and often no BAB for 3/4-BAB classes. And they're odd numbers, so no extra 1/2-level benefits like Ki Pool or sorcerer power damage or assorted Things Per Day.

7th level Barbarian gets BAB and DR1/- (which is more of an accounting nuisance than an an actual help) but that's it.

7th level Fighter is OK if you like heavy armour, not so great otherwise. AAT is about as good as a feat.

7th Monk gets Cold Iron/Silver as a Ki power, and Wholeness of Body. UnMonk doesn't even get that.

7th Slayer gets...Stalker. And takes it back to the shop because it's rubbish.

7th Samurai and Cavalier get another Challenge.

7th rogue gets more sneak attack.

The one good thing about these odd levels is that you get a character feat...if you haven't dipped.

I imagine there's a way of mixing an archetype with a 1-level dip to make a level in which you get nothing at all bar hp and skills.

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Mudfoot wrote:


The one good thing about these odd levels is that you get a character feat...if you haven't dipped.

Character feats are based on character levels, so dipping in a different class hasn't a negative effect.


Forkedwizard wrote:
I was looking at the bard class, and from level 12 -> 13, you get access to 1 level 5 spell, no BAB,saves,specials, just a single spell. Are there other classes that get as little 'stuff' for a level?

Sorcerer level 2... you get a new cantrip, that’s all.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Mudfoot wrote:


The one good thing about these odd levels is that you get a character feat...if you haven't dipped.

Character feats are based on character levels, so dipping in a different class hasn't a negative effect.

That's the point, though. 1st X / 7th barbarian means that your 7th barbarian level is your 8th character level, so no feat. You do get a stat bump because 8th, but that might of course do nothing depending on what you bump.


Level 1 Commoner to Level 2 Commoner. Gains 1 BAB, a d6 HD, and 2+Int Skill Ranks.

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