New Gunslinger chassis idea - making it distinct from fighter.


Gunslinger Class

Dataphiles

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Gunslinger chassis, as it stands, feels very similar to fighter, but needs the extra accuracy because of how guns work.

If guns aren’t to be changed, I suggest the following:

Drop weapon proficiency to be in line with other martials (master at 13)

Add Level 1 class feature

“You may roll twice and take the higher result for the first Strike you make with a weapon that has a reload of 1 or greater each turn. If you do, that Strike gains the fortune trait.”

From there, get rid of all the [Press] abilities gunslinger has, which don’t work with its awkward action econ, and replace them with [Open]s instead. Make it focus around 1 Attack per turn.


It does give the accurate marksman feel, while it is probably higher than the current +2 from legendary, it only works for one attack per turn so that maybe balances out.


I think someone would have to run the numbers on it to be sure.

I have concerns that it's actually much stronger than pure numbers indicate because of opportunity cost and non-strike actions, etc.


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Being perfectly honest, I don't see anything wrong with your suggestion on its surface (I'll let someone better at math than I am run the numbers on precise balance), but I'm not crazy about it. This works great for a sniper, but doesn't really fit my preferences for the Clint Eastwood style gunfighter. If Paizo decided to go this route, I think it would work out just fine, but I probably wouldn't be into it.


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Sorry, but I don't like that at all.


Serial Loafer wrote:
Being perfectly honest, I don't see anything wrong with your suggestion on its surface (I'll let someone better at math than I am run the numbers on precise balance), but I'm not crazy about it. This works great for a sniper, but doesn't really fit my preferences for the Clint Eastwood style gunfighter. If Paizo decided to go this route, I think it would work out just fine, but I probably wouldn't be into it.

That's how I'm feeling too. I already know that, when I make a gunslinger, they're going to be flinging pistols all over the place and duel wielding so much that people will mistake their name for Guns Akimbo.


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Dubious Scholar wrote:

I think someone would have to run the numbers on it to be sure.

I have concerns that it's actually much stronger than pure numbers indicate because of opportunity cost and non-strike actions, etc.

I remember that someone did for Advantage in D&D 5e, which is what he's proposing, and it works out at a 3.5 point advantage, which in PF2e terms is massive, and far more powerful than the +2ish that the current proficiency progression would provide.

I would also say that the relative power level of the Press actions is already balanced around the idea that you can't do them without having a MAP, so just making them Opens won't work

Scarab Sages

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True Strike is already so highly valued that people take a wizard dedication on martial characters just to get access to it a limited number of times per day. To give it for free once a round for no action cost is too much.

I do think there potential in sniper somewhere to give them a limited version of it. If gunslingers were to have a focus-pool like grit mechanic, for example. Or if it’s only when attacking an opponent that is completely unaware of you. Or studying for three actions then applying to your first shot the next round. Something like that.


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I don't think a once a round roll twice mechanic should be ruled out, considering reload weapons make it effectively take two actions. Compare it to Double Slice, a two action that lets you roll twice at your highest bonus and use both rolls.

Comparatively this would be two actions that let you roll twice and only use the better result, and it's your class's entire damage steroid.

Not saying I agree with it, but I wouldn't dismiss it as unbalanced out of hand.

Scarab Sages

And double slice counts as two attacks for MAP. If it’s roll twice , but then if you take a second shot using risky reload or quick draw or something, it’s -10, that starts to even it out.

But Double Slice also costs a feat, requires wielding two weapons, and is melee only unless you take a dedication and additional feat, Here the suggestion was to just make it a baked in class feature. So there’s also that. Now, there’s plenty of room to boost the gunslinger class features, so it’s possible.

Right now they’re valuing the gun equivalent to double slice as an 8th level feat. Which makes me think this would be the main class benefit, and we wouldn’t get much else in the way of interesting class features.


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Ferious Thune wrote:

True Strike is already so highly valued that people take a wizard dedication on martial characters just to get access to it a limited number of times per day. To give it for free once a round for no action cost is too much.

I do think there potential in sniper somewhere to give them a limited version of it. If gunslingers were to have a focus-pool like grit mechanic, for example. Or if it’s only when attacking an opponent that is completely unaware of you. Or studying for three actions then applying to your first shot the next round. Something like that.

This is news to me. I've never seen it advocated like that. It may be at your table, but I hardly think that the majority of fighters will picking up Wizard dedications just for that.

Also, such a thing already exists on the game with the Swashbuckler's Perfect Finisher. The main difference is that the proposed Gunslinger feature would be the benefit itself, while the Swashbuckler's is a reroll on top of extra damage (which may justify the level).

I can see a world where we have a kind of "Gunslinger's Luck" mechanic allowing some rerolls, but I'm not particularly fond of it. I prefer them to remain much like they are now, because despite the mechanical touches, lots of the features and feats are actually interesting (we need more bouncing bullets and trick shots, though).


It's incredibly unlikely that they are going to bake in Advantage into the Gunslinger, given just how uncommon it is for offensive purposes. There are a lot of ways to get rerolls for saves, a decent number for skill checks, but very, very few for attack rolls, and most of those consume either a very limited resource, or are once a day, or are high level for access.

It's even more unlikely when you consider that it would make the Gunslinger much better at hitting things than any other class, which they are already well positioned to do just with Legendary progression on their attack rolls, and would almost trivialise crits on the majority of enemies.


Ferious Thune wrote:

And double slice counts as two attacks for MAP. If it’s roll twice , but then if you take a second shot using risky reload or quick draw or something, it’s -10, that starts to even it out.

But Double Slice also costs a feat, requires wielding two weapons, and is melee only unless you take a dedication and additional feat, Here the suggestion was to just make it a baked in class feature. So there’s also that. Now, there’s plenty of room to boost the gunslinger class features, so it’s possible.

Right now they’re valuing the gun equivalent to double slice as an 8th level feat. Which makes me think this would be the main class benefit, and we wouldn’t get much else in the way of interesting class features.

Note that this proposal would be half the damage as double slice, paired shots, or Rebounding Assault.

I do think it is too strong at first glance, though I suddenly recall I thought a class that was all about fortune abilities would be a fun direction for the Drifter class to take. It'll happen sooner or later, I'm sure (I'm looking at you, homebrew Commander of my dreams).

Alternatively, a class ability that lets you reload 1 as a reaction might be worth the proficiency trade-off. I don't think the class would be overpowered with both, at least not compared to the fighter, but rangers might cry.

Asethe wrote:
It's even more unlikely when you consider that it would make the Gunslinger much better at hitting things than any other class, which they are already well positioned to do just with Legendary progression on their attack rolls, and would almost trivialise crits on the majority of enemies.

OP wants advantage instead of legendary proficiency, not on top of.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
I don't think the class would be overpowered with both, at least not compared to the fighter, but rangers might cry.

I don't think the ranger has a lot of reason to complain, at least not the flurry ranger XD. The precision ranger is already complaining (because he is not the flurry ranger) and outwit is a joke in combat anyway. So I don't think anything that is done with the gunslinger will change this state of affairs :)


Karmagator wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
I don't think the class would be overpowered with both, at least not compared to the fighter, but rangers might cry.
I don't think the ranger has a lot of reason to complain, at least not the flurry ranger XD. The precision ranger is already complaining (because he is not the flurry ranger) and outwit is a joke in combat anyway. So I don't think anything that is done with the gunslinger will change this state of affairs :)

Idk I always thought of precision as the way to go for ranged rangers or 2 handed melee rangers. Flurry to me seems exclusively for dual wielders.

Scarab Sages

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Lightning Raven wrote:
This is news to me. I've never seen it advocated like that. It may be at your table, but I hardly think that the majority of fighters will picking up Wizard dedications just for that.

Did you follow the Magus playtest at all? That turned into how do I get (edit: more) truestrike pretty quickly. Yes, that was because of crit fishing. With a fatal weapon, it would also lead to even more crit fishing for Gunslingers.

Lightning Raven wrote:
Also, such a thing already exists on the game with the Swashbuckler's Perfect Finisher. The main difference is that the proposed Gunslinger feature would be the benefit itself, while the Swashbuckler's is a reroll on top of extra damage (which may justify the level).

Taking a 14th level ability that requires you to use other actions before you can even perform it and prevents you from making any other attacks after it in a round, and turning that into the base way that another class works from 1st level with no cost is a bit of a stretch. Remember, again, that this thread is suggesting that rolling twice be the base, automatic mechanic from the beginning for a gunslinger.

Lightning Raven wrote:
I can see a world where we have a kind of "Gunslinger's Luck" mechanic allowing some rerolls, but I'm not particularly fond of it. I prefer them to remain much like they are now, because despite the mechanical touches, lots of the features and feats are actually interesting (we need more bouncing bullets and trick shots, though).

Then give them Gunslingers luck as a high level feat that is limited in some way. Not an always on every round free mechanic. I didn’t say no rerolls ever. It feels most appropriate to me for the Sniper, but as an option for all gunslingers that is limited in some way, it might work.

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Note that this proposal would be half the damage as double slice, paired shots, or Rebounding Assault.

Not quite. Your chance to crit goes way up when rolling twice. In fact, it doubles. That doesn’t look so bad when you only have a 5% chance and are using a 1d6 agile weapon (in at least one hand for no hit penalty with double slice), so 10% crit. Especially compared to legendary, which would give you 15%. But when you do start getting debuffs going and your normal chance to crit increases to 15 or 20 or even 25% against some low level enemies, now you’re talking a 30-50% chance to crit, and you’re not getting 1d6. You’re getting 1d10 Fatal. And now what if you also take Quick Draw and the brace of pistols. You’re getting that for 1 action, compared to the two of all of those other feats, and 1 MAP. And you get to still have a free hand. And you can combine it with other abilities if you want, unless you make it a specific one action attack or 2 actions to include a reload, and not just the way that a gunslinger’s attack works. It’s going to be a huge spike in damage, and certainly more than half of what two strikes at normal to-hit with a non-fatal weapon are going to give. Paired shots has the advantage of Fatal, but it’s an 8th level ability and has all the awkwardness of reloading with your hands full.

The difference between advantage in 5E and getting a reroll in 2E is that in 5E for the most part you’re still only critting on a 20.

Now turn around and create an enemy Gunslinger who is already level+3 and critting the PCs 25% of the time.


WWHsmackdown wrote:
Idk I always thought of precision as the way to go for ranged rangers or 2 handed melee rangers. Flurry to me seems exclusively for dual wielders.

2-handed melee, absolutely, though I don't know how many people play that, as there are no particular feats to support it.

And for both TWF and ranged, flurry ranger is the superior choice in many, if not most situations. With two feats (Hunted Shot and Twin Takedown), you are simultaneously a really strong melee class and the strongest ranged weapon class in the game. Don't get me wrong, the extra damage from precision is decent, especially at lower levels and enemies with high physical resistances. It just can't compete with the 3 attacks per round that flurry can dish out under most circumstances. For that matter, neither can the fighter due to a lack of strong ranged feats.


Karmagator wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
I don't think the class would be overpowered with both, at least not compared to the fighter, but rangers might cry.
I don't think the ranger has a lot of reason to complain, at least not the flurry ranger XD. The precision ranger is already complaining (because he is not the flurry ranger) and outwit is a joke in combat anyway. So I don't think anything that is done with the gunslinger will change this state of affairs :)

Anyone being better at reloading than Rangers will make them all kinds of huffy, especially if it is a low level reaction. Although I suppose it could just be a general feat that gunslingers get as a bonus feat; its not really stronger than the damage reduction offered by Shield block, if different in intent. That would make all Reload weapon users over the moon. Maybe level 3 or 5 general feat? Edit: my logic is, AoO is strong, but that is an additional attack at your highest MAP, tied to what your enemies do around you. This would be more valuable in that you could do it every round and it is entirely in your own control, but it effectively only gives you an additional attack at your 2nd or 3rd MAP, or lets you Step/Stride/other.

My Reactive Reload idea is growing on me, because it would stack with Risky and Running Reload, giving you a hell of a bump to your action economy. And I feel gunslingers are short a reaction ability at level 1 anyways; this would work.

It occurs to me that there's no ability in the game that specifies it uses both your reaction and some actions (the closest all split that up, not saying it uses both at once). But I don't see why you can't do so. For example, imagine an ability called "Double Pump: AAR. You shoot your blunderbuss twice in rapid succession" and the rest follows along the standard double slice path. It eats your reaction as well as the two normal actions, because you're shooting the same gun twice at the same MAP.


Flurry's gotten a lot of hype in the past, but...it's really for if you only want to attack constantly forever. Precision has a lot more flexibility of options.

As for the Gunslinger chassis idea, they've had two classes now that rely on/encourage crits, Fighters via higher accuracy and Investigators via Devise A Stratagem. I wouldn't necessarily mind the current gun paradigm sticking around, and Gunslingers capitalizing on it via a mechanic like this rather than just better accuracy (though it would need to be balanced carefully), but I also think it might be preferred for guns to be less crit-smashy and for Gunslingers to have another mechanic. Depends on playtest data, I suppose.


Ferious Thune wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:

Note that this proposal would be half the damage as double slice, paired shots, or Rebounding Assault.

Not quite. Your chance to crit goes way up when rolling twice. In fact, it doubles.

Fair point.


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Alfa/Polaris wrote:

Flurry's gotten a lot of hype in the past, but...it's really for if you only want to attack constantly forever. Precision has a lot more flexibility of options.

As for the Gunslinger chassis idea, they've had two classes now that rely on/encourage crits, Fighters via higher accuracy and Investigators via Devise A Stratagem. I wouldn't necessarily mind the current gun paradigm sticking around, and Gunslingers capitalizing on it via a mechanic like this rather than just better accuracy (though it would need to be balanced carefully), but I also think it might be preferred for guns to be less crit-smashy and for Gunslingers to have another mechanic. Depends on playtest data, I suppose.

Pretty much, turns out after people playing, Precision ends being the better generic choice, because if you strike 2 times precision is better, 3 times they are even and 4+ times flurry is better. The thing is that for the 4+ for flurry be better it takes you entire turn only striking limiting a lot your action economy.

Now back to gunslinger... it's still a survey and the majority of votes will win, so people will see the legendary and will vote for that even though for ranged attacks is actually better master + damage mechanic.

Scarab Sages

Kyrone wrote:
Now back to gunslinger... it's still a survey and the majority of votes will win, so people will see the legendary and will vote for that even though for ranged attacks is actually better master + damage mechanic.

Yeah, pretty much this. I feel like the Ranger makes a better Gunslinger than the Gunslinger in a lot of ways. Especially if the Archetype trends continue and Gunslinger Dedication allows getting Risky Reload or Firearm Ace. Running Reload and Quick Draw are already available to a Ranger, and the higher level Gunslinger feats, given the issues around reloading and how many of them require a loaded gun or have the Press trait, just don't seem worth sacrificing the bonus damage from level 1 Precision Ranger to get. First round, instead of being Shoot, reload, shoot -5 would become Hunt Prey (removing one range increment of penalties), fire with bonus damage, reload. Which I feel is going to work out better for you in most situations. And hey, you can even get a trusty horse companion if you want.


Yeah, precision ranger already worked... decently with crossbows. It wasn't optimal, but it worked, since Crossbow Ace and the bonus damage pushing to one shot per round anyways. Gravity Weapon made it a little better there as well.

That's kind of the competition for gunslinger. They need to be one of two things:
1) Better DPR with reload weapons than precision ranger
2) Similar DPR with more flexibility (?)


Dubious Scholar wrote:

Yeah, precision ranger already worked... decently with crossbows. It wasn't optimal, but it worked, since Crossbow Ace and the bonus damage pushing to one shot per round anyways. Gravity Weapon made it a little better there as well.

That's kind of the competition for gunslinger. They need to be one of two things:
1) Better DPR with reload weapons than precision ranger
2) Similar DPR with more flexibility (?)

Seconded


Exocist wrote:

Add Level 1 class feature

“You may roll twice and take the higher result for the first Strike you make with a weapon that has a reload of 1 or greater each turn. If you do, that Strike gains the fortune trait.”

From there, get rid of all the [Press] abilities gunslinger has, which don’t work with its awkward action econ, and replace them with [Open]s instead. Make it focus around 1 Attack per turn.

If there was a Grit system, then yes I think this could be a good way to "spend" Grit.

And then you make it so that when you do have Grit, you ignore Misfires from Feats.

The question then becomes how you do their Grit system, which would be a massive overhaul of the Class (unlikely to happen, Reddit loves this class as is, so I suspect those with issues aren't going to see changes like this).

As is though, a tad too strong.


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Ferious Thune wrote:
Did you follow the Magus playtest at all? That turned into how do I get (edit: more) truestrike pretty quickly. Yes, that was because of crit fishing. With a fatal weapon, it would also lead to even more crit fishing for Gunslingers.

Yes. I did. And I thought we were talking about Fighters not the shell of a Magus that we received in the playtest. I was there and the True Strike was more like a crutch to compensate for a weak core of the class, than something that felt mandatory.

Ferious Thune wrote:
Taking a 14th level ability that requires you to use other actions before you can even perform it and prevents you from making any other attacks after it in a round, and turning that into the base way that another class works from 1st level with no cost is a bit of a stretch. Remember, again, that this thread is suggesting that rolling twice be the base, automatic mechanic from the beginning for a gunslinger

The idea proposed was to make the Gunslinger's single shot have more reliability and it succeeds in doing that and unlike the Swashbuckler's feat, it won't have a damaging rider effect nor the advantage of attacking into flat-footed, another important thing is that just because a Finisher stops your attacks, doesn't mean that you can't attack at least once before, it is far more flexible than a Gunslinger's shot would be. As I mentioned, I'm not that big of a fan of this, but I think it is pretty balanced core mechanic assuming that a lot of the Guns janky nature stays along with the weak sauce normal shots and decent critical hits.

Ferious Thune wrote:
Then give them Gunslingers luck as a high level feat that is limited in some way. Not an always on every round free mechanic. I didn’t say no rerolls ever. It feels most appropriate to me for the Sniper, but as an option for all gunslingers that is limited in some way, it might work.

I only for this reroll as core mechanic if everything stays largely the same, which I hope it doesn't. I would like the gunslinger to have the multi-shot playstyle, the marksman approach, the trick shooter and the weapon and pistol "buccaneer" style. Each feature different attack routines and should have these kinds of routines supported by the Ways AND Way-related feats. Dual-wielders will have less accuracy/dmg but many shots, marksman with precise shooting, the trick shooter should have actual trick shots rather than cartoony abilities forcing red barrels out of nowhere and the S&P should be able to hold its own in combat (trading high proficiency in Guns for better melee advantages seems a good trade off for me).

Scarab Sages

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Lightning Raven wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Did you follow the Magus playtest at all? That turned into how do I get (edit: more) truestrike pretty quickly. Yes, that was because of crit fishing. With a fatal weapon, it would also lead to even more crit fishing for Gunslingers.
Yes. I did. And I thought we were talking about Fighters not the shell of a Magus that we received in the playtest. I was there and the True Strike was more like a crutch to compensate for a weak core of the class, than something that felt mandatory.

I said martial characters, which I consider the Magus to be. But I've seen the true strike build on Rangers (using precision ranger, wizard dedication, a returning thrown weapon, and a staff of divination in their other hand) and Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, elsewhere. True strike is unbalanced as a level 1 spell, and it's the first thing that people look at when a new class comes out. How can this be combined with true strike? If Gunslinger gets a built in, free, true strike mechanic, then the next thing to happen will be people looking at ways to boost single shot damage on a Gunslinger. Rogue dedication for Sneak Attack, Magus Dedication if that allows some form of striking spell, etc. It's kind of touch AC all over, but focused on finding ways to take advantage of high crit rates.

Lightning Raven wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Taking a 14th level ability that requires you to use other actions before you can even perform it and prevents you from making any other attacks after it in a round, and turning that into the base way that another class works from 1st level with no cost is a bit of a stretch. Remember, again, that this thread is suggesting that rolling twice be the base, automatic mechanic from the beginning for a gunslinger
The idea proposed was to make the Gunslinger's single shot have more reliability and it succeeds in doing that and unlike the Swashbuckler's feat, it won't have a damaging rider effect nor the advantage of attacking into flat-footed, another important thing is that just because a Finisher stops your attacks, doesn't mean that you can't attack at least once before, it is far more flexible than a Gunslinger's shot would be. As I mentioned, I'm not that big of a fan of this, but I think it is pretty balanced core mechanic assuming that a lot of the Guns janky nature stays along with the weak sauce normal shots and decent critical hits.

Except that the Gunslinger's shot does have bonus damage. It just only happens on a crit via Fatal. A true strike mechanic is going to improve overall accuracy slightly. It's going to have a much bigger impact on how often you crit.

A Swashbuckler can attack once before using Perfect Finisher, but then they're taking a -5 on Perfect Finisher, which minimizes the crit potential. If you've got a 15% chance to crit something with your -0 attack, and you attack once at -0 and once (with two rolls) at -5, your chance of critting on one of those two attacks is 25%. If you roll twice at a 15% crit chance, your chance to crit goes to 30%. If you instead had a 25% chance to crit, then you go to 50%, while the Swashbuckler is at 35%.

Lightning Raven wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Then give them Gunslingers luck as a high level feat that is limited in some way. Not an always on every round free mechanic. I didn’t say no rerolls ever. It feels most appropriate to me for the Sniper, but as an option for all gunslingers that is limited in some way, it might work.
I only for this reroll as core mechanic if everything stays largely the same, which I hope it doesn't....

There are two downsides to crit fishing builds. One of them is that you spend a lot of wasted actions doing no damage. The other is that when you do crit, you do so much damage in a single hit as to also make the game less fun. The proposed Magus had that issue more than the Gunslinger does, but the more you build up the crit potential of the Gunslinger, the more fights where it's round 1, the Gunslinger fires, and the thing is dead or nearly dead from one hit. That is also bad for the game.

Scarab Sages

Fixing my math for actual numbers instead of top of head estimates. Just missed the edit window. Will update here.

Well, trying to fix it, anyway, but the site keeps eating my post.

Truestrike Crit chances:

Base/Truestrike
5% / 9.75%
10% / 19%
15% / 27.75%
20% / 36%
25% / 43.75%
30% / 51%
35% / 57.75%
40% / 64%
45% / 69.75%
50% / 75%

Not much point in going farther than that. The overall point is that while yes, true strike increases your chance to hit, the better the chance you had to hit in the first place, what it's actually increasing is your chance to crit.


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Ferious Thune wrote:

Except that the Gunslinger's shot does have bonus damage. It just only happens on a crit via Fatal. A true strike mechanic is going to improve overall accuracy slightly. It's going to have a much bigger impact on how often you crit.

While this is true to a certain degree, I feel like it is disingenuous. Gunslingers do not have a bonus damage mechanic outside of increased accuracy. Most weapons in the Firearm weapon group have the fatal trait. This is a difference worth noting, especially considering that crossbows have also been grouped into the class's niche.

A fighter can take Double Slice with a pair of picks (or a pick and a light pick to avoid the penalty on the second attack), roll twice, and actually get the damage from both if they both hit. Considering the reload action, this effectively the same cost, available in a first level feat, and actually does more damage (the firearm averages out to between 1/2 and 3/4 of the fighter Double Slicing with picks, depending on level and base accuracy relative to the target's AC).

Likewise, a fighter can just use a composite short bow and attack 3 times in the same round and average more damage than a gunslinger using an arquebus with the proposed changes doing nothing but attacking and reloading (assuming that the arquebus already has the tripod deployed even).

I still don't like the idea. I don't think it would be fun to play (for me), but it's not in any way, shape, or form overpowered.

Scarab Sages

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Serial Loafer wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:

Except that the Gunslinger's shot does have bonus damage. It just only happens on a crit via Fatal. A true strike mechanic is going to improve overall accuracy slightly. It's going to have a much bigger impact on how often you crit.

While this is true to a certain degree, I feel like it is disingenuous. Gunslingers do not have a bonus damage mechanic outside of increased accuracy. Most weapons in the Firearm weapon group have the fatal trait. This is a difference worth noting, especially considering that crossbows have also been grouped into the class's niche.

A fighter can take Double Slice with a pair of picks (or a pick and a light pick to avoid the penalty on the second attack), roll twice, and actually get the damage from both if they both hit. Considering the reload action, this effectively the same cost, available in a first level feat, and actually does more damage (the firearm averages out to between 1/2 and 3/4 of the fighter Double Slicing with picks, depending on level and base accuracy relative to the target's AC).

My response was to the comparison to Swashbuckler. I’ll address Double Slice as well, but first the Swashbuckler comparison. The claim was that Perfect Finisher was only a 14th level feat because of Swashbuckler’s bonus damage. And at 14th level, it’s a significant amount of bonus damage at 5d6 (17.5 avg), although there are certainly ways to do more earlier. At 1st level, a swashbuckler’s bonus damage is 2d6 (avg 7), doubles to 14 on a crit. Fatal’s bonus damage for a dueling pistol on a crit is 9.5 (+2 avg per die, +1d10 or 5.5). So lower, for sure. But not non-existent. Adding a die adds +4 bonus damage avg to a crit. Adding a die for a finisher adds 3.5 or 7 on a crit. So it’s a fair point that Swashbuckler’s bonus damage will scale a lot faster than a Gunslinger’s. Although Sniper can make up some of that difference.

For Double Slice, again we have to look at what is proposed in this thread.

Exocist wrote:

Add Level 1 class feature

“You may roll twice and take the higher result for the first Strike you make with a weapon that has a reload of 1 or greater each turn. If you do, that Strike gains the fortune trait.”

This is what I’m saying is a bad idea. It’s a no action boost to your first attack every round that applies to any strike and does not change how that strike affects MAP.

Double Slice is a 2 action ability that can’t combine with other abilities that make Strikes, leaves you at -10 (or -8) MAP, requires one of the weapons be agile if you don’t want the attack penalty, and can only apply bonus damage (sneak attack mainly) once. It’s a really good feat, but it’s specifically designed to try to limit abuse.

How can the proposed gunslinger ability be abused? Well, combine it with, say, Eldritch Archer. Eldritch Shot works with crossbows. Since the proposed gunslinger ability doesn’t take any actions of its own and works with your first strike, it works with Eldritch Shot. Now you’re true striking shocking grasp and the crossbow bolt and we’re back to the issues Magus had. It’s an invitation to finding holes like that in the system.

So for starters, it has to be its own action that includes a Strike so that it can’t be combined with other things that make strikes. To prevent abuse.

Similarly, if the fact that you have to reload is going to part of balancing it, but you can get around that with Quick Draw or similar things, then it stops being a limit.

So I would start with it being a two action ability that includes true strike, Strike, and reload. Possibly affecting MAP twice. That starts to put it in the same place as other abilities.

Serial Loafer wrote:
Likewise, a fighter can just use a composite short bow and attack 3 times in the same round and average more damage than a gunslinger using an arquebus with the proposed changes doing nothing but attacking and reloading (assuming that the arquebus already has the tripod deployed even).

I’m aware. I posted the chart showing that a Gunslinger that takes an Archer dedication is more effective with a composite shortbow.

Serial Loafer wrote:
I still don't like the idea. I don't think it would be fun to play (for me), but it's not in any way, shape, or form overpowered.

Part of my point with all of this is that crit fishing is not a good mechanic to base a class around. The answer to fixing things is not to make the class crit more. Just fix the weapons so they do a decent amount of damage on a normal hit and fix the class so it can reload without those actions feeling like they are basically wasted.


Ferious Thune wrote:
Serial Loafer wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:

Except that the Gunslinger's shot does have bonus damage. It just only happens on a crit via Fatal. A true strike mechanic is going to improve overall accuracy slightly. It's going to have a much bigger impact on how often you crit.

While this is true to a certain degree, I feel like it is disingenuous. Gunslingers do not have a bonus damage mechanic outside of increased accuracy. Most weapons in the Firearm weapon group have the fatal trait. This is a difference worth noting, especially considering that crossbows have also been grouped into the class's niche.

A fighter can take Double Slice with a pair of picks (or a pick and a light pick to avoid the penalty on the second attack), roll twice, and actually get the damage from both if they both hit. Considering the reload action, this effectively the same cost, available in a first level feat, and actually does more damage (the firearm averages out to between 1/2 and 3/4 of the fighter Double Slicing with picks, depending on level and base accuracy relative to the target's AC).

My response was to the comparison to Swashbuckler. I’ll address Double Slice as well, but first the Swashbuckler comparison. The claim was that Perfect Finisher was only a 14th level feat because of Swashbuckler’s bonus damage. And at 14th level, it’s a significant amount of bonus damage at 5d6 (17.5 avg), although there are certainly ways to do more earlier. At 1st level, a swashbuckler’s bonus damage is 2d6 (avg 7), doubles to 14 on a crit. Fatal’s bonus damage for a dueling pistol on a crit is 9.5 (+2 avg per die, +1d10 or 5.5). So lower, for sure. But not non-existent. Adding a die adds +4 bonus damage avg to a crit. Adding a die for a finisher adds 3.5 or 7 on a crit. So it’s a fair point that Swashbuckler’s bonus damage will scale a lot faster than a Gunslinger’s. Although Sniper can make up some of that difference.

For Double Slice, again we have to look at what is proposed in this thread....

My apologies, I misunderstood the point of your other post.

Scarab Sages

No worries. There are a lot of posts, and I tend to write too much, so my point sometimes gets lost. The Gunslinger definitely needs a boost. There are just other concerns that come into increasing the frequency of crits. I'm not a huge fan of the +10 crit mechanic in general, because I feel like so much of the rest of the system has to be restricted to avoid it being abused.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I actually really like the Legendary proficiency and its effects on crits, in our actual playtests the Gunslinger didn't really lag behind at all in terms of their damage output. It also feels right for the Gunslinger thematically, and it synergizes well with the fatal trait on the guns.

Liberty's Edge

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I prefer Master and being able to benefit from Flanking at range.

Same bonus, but puts a greater accent on tactical positioning and frees the greater variety of abilities that just cannot go with Legendary.

Scarab Sages

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Keep in mind that a Ranger with Hunter's Aim has, at 2nd level, the same accuracy as the Gunslinger for roughly the same action cost (yes, it requires Hunted Target. No, that's not a big deal in a boss fight), but also scaling bonus damage once a round, more skills, Medium Armor proficiency, and d10 HPs. I'll take that over Legendary Proficiency when I can only attack once in most rounds anytime.

Magic Sword, it sounds like the Gunslinger in your games rolled well. I did 12 points of damage over 5 rounds (largely due to only getting 7 attacks over 5 rounds due to reload and only hitting twice despite having Legendary due to things like cover penalties that I didn't have the actions to move to avoid). It did not feel good at all, and having to spend the majority of my feats as I leveled to overcome that felt even worse.


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The Raven Black wrote:

I prefer Master and being able to benefit from Flanking at range.

Same bonus, but puts a greater accent on tactical positioning and frees the greater variety of abilities that just cannot go with Legendary.

Benefits from flanking... on a class that doesn't put a body in melee? This sounds like a Ranger feat to me, designed for animal companion synergy. Unless you're suggesting that the line for flanking be drawn to wherever the Gunslinger is?

Liberty's Edge

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Arachnofiend wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

I prefer Master and being able to benefit from Flanking at range.

Same bonus, but puts a greater accent on tactical positioning and frees the greater variety of abilities that just cannot go with Legendary.

Benefits from flanking... on a class that doesn't put a body in melee? This sounds like a Ranger feat to me, designed for animal companion synergy. Unless you're suggesting that the line for flanking be drawn to wherever the Gunslinger is?

I guess the second. Sorry, English is not my native language.

"To flank a foe, you and your ally must be on opposite sides of the creature. A line drawn between the center of your space and the center of your ally's space must pass through opposite sides or opposite corners of the foe's space. Additionally, both you and the ally have to be able to act, you must be wielding melee weapons or be able to make an unarmed attack, you can't be under any effects that prevent you from attacking, and you must both have the enemy within reach."

What I wished to say is that the Gunslinger would have a Class feature that would, in the above text, replace "melee weapons" with "weapons" and "you must both have the enemy within reach" to "your ally must have the enemy within reach and you must have the ally within reach or within your weapon's first range increment".


Been thinking about this option. I !ike it, but agree two dice makes missing nearly impossible. What if (X/day) you could reroll a success.(and only a success) in an attempt to turn it into a critical success? That is, a miss is a miss, a crit is a crit, a hit is a hit aaand sometimes a crit.

I know... too little too late.

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