Multiple attacks, attack bonuses, and maneuvers.

[Moloch1066]

So sorry, as I expect this question has been asked a lot, but I keep seeing contradicting answers and would like the "official" ruling.

I understand that Actions with the Attack trait (Strike, Trip, Shove, etc) count towards the multiple attack penalty (MAP).

What I'm not sure of (and have seen various answers to) is if the Athletics check associated with a Trip or Shove counts as an "attack roll".

Do they suffer from the MAP?
Do they benefit from Inspire Courage?

Thanks!

[Squiggit]

As of the most recent errata, athletics based attacks (and other similar abilities) are no longer attack rolls.

They DO suffer from MAP.

They DO NOT benefit from Inspire Courage or anything else that modifies attack rolls.

[HumbleGamer]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=3

since they have the attack trait, they suffer from any map.

and since they require an athletics check, which is a skill check, I suppose they won't benefit from inspire courage

Quote:

You and all allies in the area gain a +1 status bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves against fear effects.

as they are not "attack rolls".

Quote:

When making an attack roll, determine the result by rolling 1d20 and adding your attack modifier for the weapon or unarmed attack you’re using. Modifiers for melee and ranged attacks are calculated differently.

Melee attack modifier = Strength modifier (or optionally Dexterity for a finesse weapon) + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties

Ranged attack modifier = Dexterity modifier + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties

Bonuses, and penalties apply to these rolls just like with other types of checks. Weapons with potency runes add an item bonus to your attack rolls.

[Moloch1066]

Thanks Squiggit, the errata is exactly what I needed!

[Gisher]

Worth mentioning that the clarification that Athletic checks aren't attack rolls also establishes that you can't use Dex for maneuvers with Finesses weapons.

[Sigfried mcWild]

Squiggit is incorrect.

MAP is not applied to Attack Rolls, it's applied to all checks with the attack trait:

CRB p446 wrote:

Every check that has the attack trait counts toward your multiple attack penalty, including Strikes, spell attack rolls, certain skill actions like Shove, and many others.

Unless we're trying to argue that a Shove would increase MAP but not actually suffer from it, which seems weird since the entire section is written in terms of "attack" not "attack roll".

[Sigfried mcWild]

Now a fascinating question is if Assurance on Athletics overrides map:

CRB p258 wrote:

You can forgo rolling a skill check for that skill to instead receive a result of 10 + your proficiency bonus (do not apply any other bonuses, penalties, or modifiers).

Link

[Squiggit]

Sigfried mcWild wrote:

Squiggit is incorrect.

I said they suffer from MAP tho. Even bolded the 'do'

Sigfried mcWild wrote:

Now a fascinating question is if Assurance on Athletics overrides map:

It definitely would. Assurance specifically says you don't apply penalties and MAP is specifically a penalty.

[Sigfried mcWild]

Squiggit wrote:

I said they suffer from MAP tho. Even bolded the 'do'

Many apologies for my brain fart

[Gortle]

Sigfried mcWild wrote:

Now a fascinating question is if Assurance on Athletics overrides map:

CRB p258 wrote:

You can forgo rolling a skill check for that skill to instead receive a result of 10 + your proficiency bonus (do not apply any other bonuses, penalties, or modifiers).

Link

Just stating it clearly again as some of these responses can be misread.

Athletics checks with the Attack Trait (Trip/Grab/Escape etc) cause and suffer Multiple Attack Penalty

Yes if you use Assurance on Athletics it definitely ignores MAP for Athletics Checks. But it still will generate MAP even though you don't actually roll, you still used an action with the attack trait.

Athletics checks with the Attack Trait are not actual attack rolls for the purposes of things that modify attack rolls. But they are skill checks.

[Paul Zagieboylo]

So here's a related question. Even though inspire courage does not benefit the Athletics skill check to Trip someone, does it improve the damage dealt on a critical success? I would argue that it does but I'm curious what other posters think.

[egindar]

The damage from a critical success is a damage roll, so yes.