Disappointed with non-construct initial innovation options

[Dubious Scholar]

Looking at the initial options for innovations, it feels like there's a decided lack of options if you aren't going with construct.

Literally every option for the Armor route is some form of resistance. With the partial exception of Complex Simplicity (which is admittedly very nice!) all the options for weapon are basically "add combat maneuver trait(s) and Versatile/Modular".

Meanwhile, the options for the construct are much more varied - swim speed, better land speed, dramatically better senses (low light, darkvision, AND tremorsense!), skills, or built in ranged weapons.

On top of that, weapon innovation gets very few options overall for ranged weapons at all at any tier, and armor feels pretty narrow on higher tiers too.

Let us get more options in our kit. Move more interesting weapon traits up. Add more things. I dunno.

Armor I feel should maybe have things like swim/climb speed as options without taking feats for them? Or similar sensory upgrades as are available to constructs (integrated darkvision unit, some kind of limited blindsense?).

Weapons need more interesting things - the second tier has much more unique traits like being able to get Free-Hand and Tethered/Ranged-Trip. But then it's doing things like... Sweep/Versatile S. And just... why. A reach increase doesn't need to be on the third tier at all, I think - barbarians and fighters both have ways to get better reach much sooner (albeit as feats, but still, they're very early feats).

I dunno. This is half a rant from putting together a playtest char. And I'm looking at Dual Form and basically the only meaningful form change right now feels like if mode 2 is a ranged weapon, because otherwise I just get melee weapon with maneuver traits #1 and #2. There's so much versatile flying around that hardly matters, and the 2-action change cost means I can't do things like beefy weapon/agile weapon so much.

Are there other things you think should be available for these types, or moved around?

[shroudb]

For the armor modification for sure.

basically you can write "pick 2 elements and you gain resistance X for them" as a single modification and cover every single one currently existing.

for the weapons:
there's no need for modular/versatile to be in so many different modifications.
instead:
tethered needs to be a tier 1 modification: by the time you go to tier 2, if you are using a thrown weapon, you already have Returning for it and it's tons better than tethered.
Reach needs to be tier 2 instead of 3, 3 is simply too late to matter.
propulsive could be a tier 1 ranged modification as well
same for sweep, it's not like it's a major trait that's going to unbalance anything if it was tier 1.

[Invictus Novo]

shroudb wrote:

For the armor modification for sure.

basically you can write "pick 2 elements and you gain resistance X for them" as a single modification and cover every single one currently existing.

for the weapons:
there's no need for modular/versatile to be in so many different modifications.
instead:
tethered needs to be a tier 1 modification: by the time you go to tier 2, if you are using a thrown weapon, you already have Returning for it and it's tons better than tethered.
Reach needs to be tier 2 instead of 3, 3 is simply too late to matter.
propulsive could be a tier 1 ranged modification as well
same for sweep, it's not like it's a major trait that's going to unbalance anything if it was tier 1.

This was how I felt as well. Seems most modifications come too late to matter and so just feel like filler to make it seem like there are more choices when most won't matter at that point. We either need to get breakthroughs more often or earlier for most to have any impact.

[Verzen]

I actually am in agreement. I love the breakthrough CONCEPT.. but not the implementation.

[Alchemic_Genius]

I love the combat maneuvers on weapons,but imo it sucks that there are no options for ranged weapon users besides modular or versatile. Tethered should be be level 1; imo ranged grapple and trip can be options at lower levels, but I can see them only giving one of these as opposed to melee weapons getting two per breakthroughs. Overall, weapons are fine except for ranged and thrown.

Armor I'd really like to see some stuff like built in unarmed attacks, but it the final design followed Mark's Know Direction interview, resistances will be really popular due to making it easier to use a lot of unstables

[Dubious Scholar]

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

I love the combat maneuvers on weapons,but imo it sucks that there are no options for ranged weapon users besides modular or versatile. Tethered should be be level 1; imo ranged grapple and trip can be options at lower levels, but I can see them only giving one of these as opposed to melee weapons getting two per breakthroughs. Overall, weapons are fine except for ranged and thrown.

Armor I'd really like to see some stuff like built in unarmed attacks, but it the final design followed Mark's Know Direction interview, resistances will be really popular due to making it easier to use a lot of unstables

Sure, but putting non-resistance options also makes that level 10 feat to take another initial innovation better.

Also, there is almost literally no reason to ever take that for weapon. Maybe for armor. Definitely lots of goodies on construct. But haha weapon.

Propulsive would be really good at level 1 for sure - sure it's only +1-2 flat damage but before level 4 that's frankly amazing.

I wonder if we can have more non-trait effects too. Like adding +1-2 flat energy damage on the first hit per turn (this seems in line with the Alchemical Crossbow, for instance). Armor could have an innovation that lets you resist all damage but only once per round - much more flexible than the existing ones but it can't help against being hit a bunch.

Did Mark say anything about where they were thinking of going with unstable stuff to help evaluate things in that context? Because if the drawback is more self damage then yes, fire resist becomes amazing, and as a bonus at least like half the core ancestries can get it innately.

[Gaulin]

Yeah I don't think Mark mentioned what the consequences would be for using unstable actions. Part of me does doubt it's just straight up damage, though that would be nice. If it is just damage, as others have said, armor innovation becomes super cool. I wonder how the healing unstable action would be handled though...

[PossibleCabbage]

I was trying to build a weapon inventor but I couldn't find the weapon options to make either of the concepts I wanted to play work.

Then I tried to make an armor inventor, and I was genuinely unsure what the armor inventor is supposed to be doing in a given combat. Your AC isn't higher than what other people can manage, and "specific resistances" aren't things you can count on (since at least some of the time they won't apply). The armor specific feats are like "you can breathe underwater" and "your armor folds up to be portable" which are nice, but you're left with an extremely underwhelming combat routine.

Weapon inventors basically need a wider set of options (particularly for ranged weapons) but the armor inventor really needs work.

[Squiggit]

shroudb wrote:

basically you can write "pick 2 elements and you gain resistance X for them" as a single modification and cover every single one currently existing.

I really hope they actually do this. It'd save so much page space and give them so much extra room to make more stuff.

I don't mind weapon traits all that much, they can open up gameplay options, but I'd really like to see more lateral options. Like offensive armor innovations, maybe upgrades to unarmed strikes or built in ranged attacks or some other special ability. Weapon innovations that let you utilize your weapon in new/unique ways or even provide utility.

Right now I have to agree with PossibleCabbage, there's a problem where the Inventor is conceptually inspiring and crazy, but in combat you're somehow even more vanilla than a Fighter. Unstable actions can kinda shake that up, but those are once per combat pretty much.

[Verzen]

Squiggit wrote:

shroudb wrote:

basically you can write "pick 2 elements and you gain resistance X for them" as a single modification and cover every single one currently existing.

I really hope they actually do this. It'd save so much page space and give them so much extra room to make more stuff.

I don't mind weapon traits all that much, they can open up gameplay options, but I'd really like to see more lateral options. Like offensive armor innovations, maybe upgrades to unarmed strikes or built in ranged attacks or some other special ability. Weapon innovations that let you utilize your weapon in new/unique ways or even provide utility.

Right now I have to agree with PossibleCabbage, there's a problem where the Inventor is conceptually inspiring and crazy, but in combat you're somehow even more vanilla than a Fighter. Unstable actions can kinda shake that up, but those are once per combat pretty much.

I agree with this. We could also free up weapon innovation stuff by grouping stuff up together. It seems a little redundant in the list. I'd much prefer it to say, "Pick a weapon trait. Your weapon gains that trait" and be done with it.

[RPGnoremac]

That is strange when I read through them I thought weapons were actually the coolest. Mainly want to have grappling reach weapons:)

Constructs seemed pretty cool too though.

Armor at quick glance was just "here is x resistance" which just equates to being more tanky.

I havent got a good look at feats yet but I think I will definitely be avoiding the armor version.

Then again being tankyier is something rarely find fun in any rpg anyway.

[Dubious Scholar]

Oh, the option for a grapple/trip/reach weapon is absolutely cool. But the problem is that then you look at all the others and how they're mostly Versatile+Maneuver and...

Also, Versatile runs into a redundancy issue if you have a weapon that already has that damage type.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Verzen wrote:

I agree with this. We could also free up weapon innovation stuff by grouping stuff up together. It seems a little redundant in the list. I'd much prefer it to say, "Pick a weapon trait. Your weapon gains that trait" and be done with it.

The problem with this is that some traits are rated higher than others. Like, backswing is strictly worse than agile, fatal is generally better than deadly, etc.

I'm actually fine with thematic grouping like grapple and trip to represent a built in entanglement device; I'd rather get 2 related traits than have the breakthrough allow only one trait, but being allow to cherry pick.

[Dubious Scholar]

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

Verzen wrote:

I agree with this. We could also free up weapon innovation stuff by grouping stuff up together. It seems a little redundant in the list. I'd much prefer it to say, "Pick a weapon trait. Your weapon gains that trait" and be done with it.

The problem with this is that some traits are rated higher than others. Like, backswing is strictly worse than agile, fatal is generally better than deadly, etc.

I'm actually fine with thematic grouping like grapple and trip to represent a built in entanglement device; I'd rather get 2 related traits than have the breakthrough allow only one trait, but being allow to cherry pick.

Well, grapple and trip are much better than the other maneuver traits too, though that's mainly an effect of the other combat maneuvers not being anywhere near as generally useful. I'm totally for keeping that specific one, I just want to not have half the other options all be Versatile+maneuver.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Yeah, I can feel ya on that one. The versatile ones also feel really superfluous with two options that straight up grant modular.
Imo complex simplicity should also have a wider range of traits than versatile

[Dubious Scholar]

One idea I was thinking though for Complex Simplicity was Clan Dagger though. Now you have a 1d6 P/B/S Agile Parry weapon, the only sword you'll ever need. I presume you then start taking the upgrades to using it from ancestry feats.

Complex Simplicity is the other base one I'm fine with - it enables additional options nicely and Versatile for your choice means it's never redundant. It's good for letting you really pick any weapon as your base.

Segmented Frame OR Modular Head imo, and the former is more interesting for giving things not easily available (although the latter makes pacification tools even more pointless). The interact cost of Modular is an important consideration in power budget on these - I think it's inferior to a Versatile, especially when you're starting on a versatile weapon (see above Clan Dagger bit).

Razor Prongs and Hefty Composition are trying to give you half of two different things and just... well, that's how you get to the feeling of all of these being only two types.

Pacification Tools is just awful. Disarm sucks without dedicated class support.

So now we've scrapped 4 of the innovations and can add 4 more interesting ones instead.

[PossibleCabbage]

It's pretty striking how the first level Dwarf clan dagger feat gets SO MUCH BETTER when the inventor gets reach on it at level 17.

I really wonder why reach, in a paradigm without lots of AoOs, is a 17th level innovation instead of like 9th.

[Falgaia]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

One idea I was thinking though for Complex Simplicity was Clan Dagger though. Now you have a 1d6 P/B/S Agile Parry weapon, the only sword you'll ever need. I presume you then start taking the upgrades to using it from ancestry feats.

Complex Simplicity is the other base one I'm fine with - it enables additional options nicely and Versatile for your choice means it's never redundant. It's good for letting you really pick any weapon as your base.

Complex Simplicity is also one of the only good Ranged options. Getting d12/d10 crossbows is pretty nice. I'm especially looking forward to testing it with the Alchemic Crossbow. Personally, seeing an early level option to increase range (whether it be moving up the Sniper trait option at 9 or something else) would be appreciated. Having the option to reduce the Reload of ranged weapons at 9 would also be nice to assist in putting Crossbows/some guns on-par with bows.

I don't know if Backswing is available as an option yet, but could be nice adding it and sweep to a melee weapon that is already Agile to severely mitigate MAP.

[shroudb]

backswing is on the 17th level list (alongside shove) so you can have an agile, sweep, backswing weapon by then.

although, 17th level has some pretty good options that probably overshadow backswing like reach, extra rune and increased damage die.

[Dubious Scholar]

Backswing is in no way a trait that should wait to 17. It's a fair bit weaker than agile and can absolutely be on level 9. I'd argue Reach can be at 9 too.

I guess part of this is a question of what the power budget is here. But like, Lunge is a level 2 Fighter feat. Since Inventor has no in-class AoO, I don't think Reach is out of the question at 9?

Looking through the options, Construct feels like it could use one more breakthrough, and wall option at revolutionary seems really bad, considering Wall of Ice/Stone are 5th level spells. Taking your companion out of the fight entirely (and a total of -4 AC means it's begging for crits too) seems bad. If it could still use other actions maybe. (Imagine it going big and then EXPLODING)

[Verzen]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Backswing is in no way a trait that should wait to 17. It's a fair bit weaker than agile and can absolutely be on level 9. I'd argue Reach can be at 9 too.

I guess part of this is a question of what the power budget is here. But like, Lunge is a level 2 Fighter feat. Since Inventor has no in-class AoO, I don't think Reach is out of the question at 9?

Looking through the options, Construct feels like it could use one more breakthrough, and wall option at revolutionary seems really bad, considering Wall of Ice/Stone are 5th level spells. Taking your companion out of the fight entirely (and a total of -4 AC means it's begging for crits too) seems bad. If it could still use other actions maybe. (Imagine it going big and then EXPLODING)

I agree. I also think they should do the breakthroughs at level 1, 5, 9, 13, 17. Total of 5. Three just doesn't seem good to me? Waiting till level 9 to get my next breakthrough seems pretty bad.

[PossibleCabbage]

It does definitely feel that they don't give you enough innovations. As a thought experiment, think about an inventor character who got access to every single innovation they were eligible for. I think the only place this gets unreasonable is the armor one having resitance to everything.

Like with all the innovations, you melee weapon for the first 8 levels would be versatile B, versatile S, shove, grapple, trip, disarm, nonlethal, moduar, and you can collapse it to be easy to carry. That's pretty useful, but not like amazing. A weapon with every single beneficial trait in the game would hardly "completely break the game" (the reason not to print such a thing is mostly about "make it so people don't all just choose the one weapon that's the best weapon.")

[Verzen]

Honestly the more I think about it, the more I want cool weapon and armor advancements. I don't JUST want various traits added on to the weapons. Shove is boring. I never use it. Same with grapple and trip. They are just boring. Reach is useful but still a little boring. Having versatile on weapons is useful, but also a bit boring. Modular is also boring.

I'd rather have something interesting for my options for both armor and weapons. For example... Remove the unstable cost for explosive leap and give it to the armor innovation. Turn VISUAL FIDELITY into an innovation that attaches to your armor. THOSE type of abilities would be awesome for innovations or breakthroughs imo.. and give us more innovations/breakthroughs as well for really well customized items.

And the class would be awesome.

[Alchemic_Genius]

I actually find grapple and trip to be quite fun; both let me make my opponent flat footed and put them at a severe disadvantage unless they burn an action to break it. Like, that's really nice for something I can just do on demand

[Dubious Scholar]

Grapple/Trip is a really nice option for weapon innovation. It says "I get good athletics attacks against my choice of save to inflict flat-footed".

It's the only maneuver innovation I like because it's actually adding a good bit of functionality. The grapple trait in particular is actually pretty hard to come by, slapping it onto your weapon of choice is great.

What I would like to see perhaps is it saying you can still attack with the grappling weapon specifically, as apparently there's some rules debate on that (it's not usually an issue considering most grapple weapons are unarmed strikes and you have two hands).

[PossibleCabbage]

Putting weapon traits on weapons that don't normally have them is nifty, I agree. But that stuff should be at low levels. Having to wait until late (level 17 even) to get stuff you could have gotten "by choosing a different weapon" as your base is what's disappointing.

The weapon inventor should get to do more kinds of things people can't normally do with weapons. Like there's a lot of space between "now it has a weapon trait this weapon doesn't normally have, but other weapons do" and the level 18 ability where your weapon flies around attacking people on its own.

[Falgaia]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Putting weapon traits on weapons that don't normally have them is nifty, I agree. But that stuff should be at low levels. Having to wait until late (level 17 even) to get stuff you could have gotten "by choosing a different weapon" as your base is what's disappointing.

The weapon inventor should get to do more kinds of things people can't normally do with weapons. Like there's a lot of space between "now it has a weapon trait this weapon doesn't normally have, but other weapons do" and the level 18 ability where your weapon flies around attacking people on its own.

That seems fair tbh. If anything, I could see them using the existing traits at level 1, upgrading to markedly improved versions of those feats at 9, and then doing something nutty at 17. Heck, if they're locked to upgrade paths I think I'd prefer that to being able to cherry pick from a mound of forgettable schlock.

Example off the top of my head:
Level 1: Weapon gains Reach.
Level 9: Add the following effects to Overdrive's text:
-Crit Success: Your weapon gains the Reach 20 trait.
-Success: Your weapon gains the Reach 15 trait.
Level 17: Your weapon gains the Sweep Trait if it does not already have it, and can take the following action: [1-Act][Flourish] Whirling Innovation: Make up to 3 strikes on separate targets within your weapon's Reach at a -2 penalty. Strikes made as part of this action only count as one strike when calculating Multiple Attack Penalty.

Just spitballing but yeah.

[shroudb]

well, you get kinda-whirlwind attack at 18 either way, so having it also as a breakthrough at 17 seems redundant to me.

but yeah, in general, more stuff that normally weapons can't do like ricochet ranged projectiles, poison reservoirs that can hold multiple poison doses inside, persistent bleed, etc

[AnimatedPaper]

Verzen wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Backswing is in no way a trait that should wait to 17. It's a fair bit weaker than agile and can absolutely be on level 9. I'd argue Reach can be at 9 too.

I guess part of this is a question of what the power budget is here. But like, Lunge is a level 2 Fighter feat. Since Inventor has no in-class AoO, I don't think Reach is out of the question at 9?

Looking through the options, Construct feels like it could use one more breakthrough, and wall option at revolutionary seems really bad, considering Wall of Ice/Stone are 5th level spells. Taking your companion out of the fight entirely (and a total of -4 AC means it's begging for crits too) seems bad. If it could still use other actions maybe. (Imagine it going big and then EXPLODING)

I agree. I also think they should do the breakthroughs at level 1, 5, 9, 13, 17. Total of 5. Three just doesn't seem good to me? Waiting till level 9 to get my next breakthrough seems pretty bad.

So, I just want to point out that progression lines up pretty well with the Alchemist research field, so I would expect a commensurate set of proficiencies.

[Falgaia]

shroudb wrote:

well, you get kinda-whirlwind attack at 18 either way, so having it also as a breakthrough at 17 seems redundant to me.

but yeah, in general, more stuff that normally weapons can't do like ricochet ranged projectiles, poison reservoirs that can hold multiple poison doses inside, persistent bleed, etc

Well, it was an "off the dome" idea, I'm open to workshopping it.